speedemon90

So, I've really gotten interested in suspension geometry and i thought I should post a thread about some of my findings and we can discuss suspension mods, for the purpose of improved handling and not looks. One thing I have found, which I think a lot of people do not know out there (I'm sure most of you do) that lowering a car quite is not good for a car as handling goes, unless you put some serious coin in the car to adjust things from control arms to your caster.

I found something that to me was a very good read. Be warned though its long. Most of you can skip the beginning since its pretty basic stuff, but once on this article once you get to page 5 on the bottom there are different parts that go more into suspension geometry, thats where I learned a lot.

http://www.modified.com/tech/0506_sc...t_1/index.html

Just thought I would share this info with you guys

I do not know how many of you autocross/track but when I get my next car and get a job I will slowly start hoping onto tracks... so its not to early for me to be researching, and one day I hope to have my own purpose built track car But that will be a very long time from now, and only if I have the money for that

speedemon90

fixed
stupid grammar mistakes

mrmako

I think a lot of people do not appreciate what it takes to make a really good suspension. I think this is why BMW is so good at their craft, they build drivers cars.

Once you ride in a car with a good one (I feel I currently have a pretty good one in my car), then one that is not very good, it becomes very apparent.

majin ssj eric

I don't lower for performance. Its purely cosmetic for me...

fsttyms1

I lower for performance but i took the time to set it up for it. You cant just throw lowering springs on and call it a day, you have to take the time to adjust the rebound and dampening of it. I have also changed the swaybar endlinks so that they are in the correct geometry while lowered. On my prelude that i used to race i went as far as modifying the suspension to try to adjust roll center with different balljoints and plates for camber/caster and upper control arm mounting points. I know on my TL what i have done has made significant improvements in handeling due to the track time differences.

speedemon90

And thats totally fine
There are quite a few people out there that put on coilovers for performance reasons and call it a day, thats when it gets bad.

See this is what I'm trying to learn, I know that lowering up to a certain point is beneficial to the car, and there is a point where you go to low which hurts performance. And you have a track to prove it which is good, most people just say that there car handles better but honestly they dont know anything. There are a lot of misconceptions out there with cars as with pretty much everything, and I'll admit I probably believe some of those now, but I'm researching and trying to learn what I think is true, is actually wrong.

Were you running coilovers on your prelude?? I hear that if you have coilovers one thing that must be done is corner balancing to get the most out of the coilovers.

Man changing up the suspension is going to be one expensive thing in the future

speedemon90

Yea totally agree

Im on the Golfmkv forums because I'm looking into a GTI as my next car

But I'm reading on there that many people underestimate the suspension on those things, and unless you put some serious money into it, most likely you are going to hurt your suspension.

And I'm sure that goes same with most performance oriented cars.

I went on a canyon run about a month back and one of my friends had a modded civic, with coilover, camber plates, RSB, just a whole bunch of changes but he never tracked his car and I'm guessing he doesnt know what he was doing, and he made a mistake i guess of keeping up with me and he spun out. He even had summer performance tires while I had all season tires.

Blazin Si

It's hard to find good info on suspension since the most knowledgeable people are either building suspension components or racing. From what I've seen, they're either too busy or don't like to share their info with just anyone.

I have seen quite a few shock dynos floating around with lots of discussion. After reading several of them, I've come away with the understanding that most of the coilover systems that have flooded the market are crap. Even the more popular ones like K Sport, D2, F2, Omni, Tein etc... show bad results on a dyno.

When a company says they offer compression and rebound adjustment with a twist of a knob, it's complete BS. It doesn't work that way. If the knob even works, it typically only effects rebound.

Unfortunately, this thread probably won't have much discussion. Most people "upgrade" their suspension for looks and a stiffer ride. Not many of us have actually tracked our cars and have any real experience to share.

stangg172004

I auto x so suspension and wheels/tires was the 1st things i did and the most money/time ive spent on. And i agree Blazin, but they usually say that they are only rebound adjustable which is half of the equation and most of these kits dont even come with linear springs.

From my experience, stay away from Ksport. It is absolute crap and the design is absolutely insane. Ive been running them for 2 years and the rear shocks seized after one year. Eventually, the right rear shock crapped out so i replaced the shocks with bilsteins (Great quality and feel, put together real well). The front coils dont adjust dampening any more, they are stuck at about 60% stiff. Every single piece is rusted, except for the orange shock body. Paint on the springs rusted off, ive been through 3 sets of endlinks because the ball joints arent kept from the elements, locking collars dont move, threads are rusted. Big PITA!!

edit: good article by the way! suspension seems to be a mystery for a lot of people...

edit edit: they didnt put Dunlop Direzza Star Specs to the list. Wonder why, they are amazing for the price!

speedemon90

Yea a lot of what the company says is really bs, and its hard to find correct information especially since you have no clue who is correct. I try to listen to the people who track their cars and have actual evidence of it working.

Maybe mods should make a subforum for Tracking/Autocrossing in car talk or motorsports?? That would maybe encourage people to discuss these topics and hopefully that people who actually track and autocross can chime in and share their wisdom with us.

stangg172004

great idea. The vw forum im on has one that is absolutely price less. Endless amount of good information.

speedemon90

Thanks
Do you have a rabbit or GTI? I'm on the golfmkv forums just looking around, I find that their Track/autocross section is very helpful and that is where I learned most of this. Most people in that part of the forum tend to be very knowledgeable and they do many track events. I hear that KW V1 or V2 tend to be pretty good.

speedemon90

haha well you answered my question

Costco

A completely slammed suspension will usually handle like shit at the limit. Super stiff isn't ideal either, at least if you're building something that you can actually drive on the street. People tend to bottom out their coilovers and it just gets too skittish when you push it. A lower center of gravity definitely helps, and the slammed look is cool looking, but it usually hurts more than it helps.

Everything has to work together in unison.... just because you get a good set of springs and a good set of shocks doesn't mean you'll get good handling. You need dampers that are suited to the spring rate, sway bars (both front in rear) that will give you balanced roll control.

One of the best things I ever did was take an introductory suspension course and advanced suspension course at a community college which was known for its great auto program. In the intro course I knew quite a bit but I learned far more when it comes to alignment angles and how they affect wear, handling, etc. The instructor used to be part of a team that put together the chassis and suspension for race cars, not sure what exact association though. I also met a few guys who worked in custom alignment/suspension shops and gained good insight from them too.

Costco

I doubt we'll ever have an autocross/track subforum, especially on an Acura forum

stangg172004

im on golfmkv a lot, same handle. And i drive a rabbit but keep up with stage 2 gtis at the auto xs

TommySalami

I auto x too, but I find that even a drop isn't that necessary. At an event last year I had my TSX with a drop and rear sway bar but stock tires, and got my ass handed to me by a stock TSX with direzza star specs. Better tires are the best thing you can do for your car and give the best bang for the buck, probably followed by stiffer anti-roll bars and then better shocks. In autox, power isn't such a big deal either, as seen by the last event where a 911 GT3 with a good driver got beat by a bunch of miatas which weren't even using r-comps

TommySalami

There are a few RSX's that I see, and they do okay, but we know how active the RSX boards are on AZ

speedemon90

haha nice

Im looking at getting a MK6 GTI in the future

speedemon90

I guess your right, but a lot of people on here have moved away from their acura's or have other cars now that they use more and maybe they take it to the track?? I dunno, I'm sure those threads will start off slow and wont get so much attention, but some is better than nothing right?

Blazin Si

There's a really great article I found several months ago on another forum. I can't seem to find it for the life of me. It was written by a suspension tech who tested several popular shock and coilover systems. I can't remember the details, but I do remember that Koni and Bilstein had good results for consumer brand components. You have a much better chance at getting a matching set with those companies.

I've tracked my car a few times with instructors, but my focus was always on car control and I never gave much though to what my suspension was doing. At the time, I had a basic set of 1st gen Omni coilovers without dampening adjustment which turned out to be junk. Today I rarely see another car with Omni's.

mitch14

^doesn't make sense, using wheels with more negative offset increases track width, not positive, adding spacers is somewhat equivalent to lowering your offset
and it wasn't just once that he said it, he said it that whole 5th page

alexSU

iTrader: (3)

Awesome article!

mrmako, I know exactly what you mean! I drove a 97' 528i for about 270 miles from PA to NY and that thing was solid! Handling was amazing in the twisties, the steering wheel was nice and firm and I felt like I was glued to the road the entire trip. And this was a 1997 BMW truly an amazing driving machine! That's the first time I really felt how good a BMW handles.

alexSU

iTrader: (3)

Sounds like a fun course, now that you mention it I'll probably look and see if my local college/univesity offers something like this.

I'm just curious to see how everything works and find out how much damage I'm doing to my car with some cheap ass Tein springs

stangg172004

tires, sway bars, shocks, springs...

stangg172004

Depends on how aggressive the drop is. From my experience, its hard for a company to mess up springs. When you get really into it, spring rates, linear vs non linear, issues like that become important...

speedemon90

As long as the drop is moderate and not to much, but most manufacturers dont have stiff enough springs to compensate for a drop, according to the article.

speedemon90

Do you just have springs on stock shocks?? Depending on how stiff the springs are and how much of a drop you have, im guessing you would need aftermarket shocks to go with that, if your intentions are improving handling. Or else your stock setup may be better? I'm not sure how the 05 TL's are handling wise, but if it understeers to much, try a RSB, but the first and best upgrade is always tires, those will make the most difference.

edit: also I think its better to go shocks before springs if you cant get the complete package. -but that i would ask someone else since i'm not sure. And unless you are running around a track and checking your difference in times with different setups or you are a professional driver theres probably a good chance what you feel behind the wheel is wrong. A lot of unexperienced people believe there handling is better just because there car does not roll much, but that is not always the case. So its hard for unexperienced people like us without the right tools and equipment, and a track to determine what is better and what is not.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

Would just swapping out the stock struts with Koni Yellows improve performance? I just want like 1 inch drop at the most, but would love to increase my handling performance..

Costco

Most definitely. My Koni Yellows made the biggest improvement in handling. My shocks were old and they were crap from the factory, so it was a huge difference. If you want to lower your car you absolutely should upgrade to adjustable shocks, which are meant for lowering springs. If you get just the Koni Yellows, depending on the rebound setting you can have a better ride than stock and even handle better.

Not sure if you're looking for a drop but that's quite a common misconception.... shocks do not affect ride height. Their main job is to control spring oscillations, which affects ride and handling. I couldn't be happier with my Yellows, no more waterbed action after going over some dips in the road and the car feels a lot more planted. Getting wider and stickier tires helped the most though.

TommySalami

The koni sports do have adjustability of like 20 millimeters, but yeah if you want a mild drop get some springs with the konis.

Costco

ah that reminds me too, totally forgot. My Koni Yellows have a lower spring perch location, which lowers the car like 0.75" or something like that. Its meant to give you a subtle drop if you use stock springs. But its too extreme to use in conjunction with lowering springs, supposedly it'll cause the shocks to prematurely fail

alexSU

iTrader: (3)

It's a small drop, maybe 1.25 inches at the most. The camber in the rear is off by about 1.5 degrees but I'll be fixing that with a camber kit when I mount the new wheels. I normally don't do springs but this was a quick and cheap way to lower the car a little bit. If money was no object, I'd get some coilovers and go from there.

The TL is very sloppy if you just add springs but then again I'm not taking this car to the track so I'm not too worried about it. It's more for looks with the TL. I wish I had a track car to mess around with, then most of my money would go into suspension mods and trimming the weight

But for now, I got Forza3

Wow, forgot to mention this too lol I have stock shocks with Tein springs. The shocks are holding up pretty good so far.

stangg172004

+ or -? im assuming negative since it just seems logical.

ive found that you can have relatively aggresive camber, anywhere from 1.0 to 3.0 degrees and have no wear issues. With my car, you can adjust camber on the OEM set up (up to 2 degrees) so that was not an issue for me even with my 2.25" drop. However, with my relatively aggressive drop, i left the camber alone since i benefit from it more and excessive tire wear doesn't bother me.

alexSU

iTrader: (3)

Sorry, yes negative camber Hmm interesting but I have slight wear because of the negative camber. It's not really that bad, I kind of don't mind it because I like how it looks from the rear and no rubbing either.

Too bad you can't adjust camber with the TL, unless of course you get a camber kit

Something else I was thinking about, lightweight wheels. I have 19" A-specs and they are like 28-29 pounds each! That's almost 3-4 pounds heavier then stock wheels. But with lighweight wheels, you almost certainly have to spend $$$$. I would really like to know or feel the difference it makes to have lightweight wheels.

stangg172004

Yup. That's also key but like you said, $$$$. I got lucky and got a set of FLIK FTDs that weigh ~17.5lbs. They arent forged but for $550, the price i paid, i couldnt pass it up. Light weight wheels+performance summer tires are something that should be seriously considered if auto-xn/tracking.

alexSU

iTrader: (3)

I would do it even if I didn't track the TL but it's just too damn expensive. I think wheels and suspension will run me about double what I paid for my entire exhaust system. Coilovers is just a start and even that is close to $1000.

Nice pickup on the wheels though! I've been searching for used performance wheels but a good deal hasn't popped up anywhere, yet.

Btw, what are driving?

speedemon90

^ He's driving a rabbit

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

Hey, I have a question for all you suspension experts.

Conventional wisdom says a staggered set up is stupid on a FWD car.
What kind of concerns are we looking at long term wise running staggered?

Costco

Generally going with wider tires in the back will tend to make the car understeer, at least more than the same car with the same setup front and rear. Of course there is more grip overall, but FWD cars in general tend to understeer more than RWD, which are the most popular cars with regards to staggered setups. Wider tires in the front than in the back will induce more oversteer, but you rarely ever see that, except maybe on dedicated track cars. Its also why you tend to see insanely staggered setups with powerful RWD/mid/rear-engined RWD cars, like 245 F and 335 R tires (guesstimating) on a Murcielago or something. Weight distribution also plays a part in this... if your car is more biased towards the rear, then of course you'd want more rubber to take advantage of it.

If you do it just for looks though, then who cares?