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lol, I'm in the technical mindset right now. Working on gear drives.
Quick question: Do you think Acura/Honda will engineer a substantially better turbo than Ford, VW, etc.? Or, do you think that inherently the greater complexity just means that we are never again (once turbos take over) going to have an Acura engine that often goes 200k + miles, or whatever, without major work?
Last edited by benjaminh; Jul 29, 2015 at 03:29 PM.
No one wants a TLX... Don't recommend Acura to any of us.
Acura is horrible..
/post
This.
Originally Posted by benjaminh
Quick question: Do you think Acura/Honda will engineer a substantially better turbo than Ford, VW, etc.? Or, do you think that inherently the greatly complexity just means that we are never again (once turbos take over) going to have an Acura engine that often goes 200k + miles, or whatever, without major work?
With how turbos are quickly taking over the market (with good reason), it's only going to evolve and change into a more reliable system. Also, as computers take over more and more of the car's systems, it will get more and more reliable in terms of thermal management and sludge build up concerns.
I don't think Acura/Honda will out engineer any more than any other make out there. Any modern engine should be able to hit 200k miles with proper maintenance and care. The fact that this turbo shit the bed after 177k miles is really not a huge deal. Parts do wear out over time and this is one of them but to say that a turbo is a wear component is pretty far out there. If it crapped out after 15k miles then I'd have a different comment.
They are not and if you read the quote you posted, it explicitly says what I've been telling you. Ball bearings have this horrible problem of expanding and contracting with heat. Floating a sleeve (and therefore the turbine shaft) on a film of oil does not have this issue. The problems start occurring when there's sludge buildup in the housing and therefore reducing oil pressure to the shaft which causes the sleeves to grind on the housing and fvck all kinds of shit up. With proper maintenance/use (use the right oil, change it often, run the engine for a bit after you stop, do a longer cool down period after hard driving, etc), this does not really happen and therefore the bearings never fail mostly because the bearing is actually a film of oil which is constantly pumped through. Newer turbo cars will run the oil pump for a period of time until the oil temp in the turbo reaches an acceptable level to prevent sludge.
The S4 ate all kinds of parts all the time, it's not really a stellar example of reliability by any measure.
I agree with your last point, the issue is low oil pressure to the shaft which cause the sleeves to grind against the housing. Once that happens, you're screwed. The cause of the low oil pressure is not running your engine/oil pump for ~30s after stopping to pump fresh, cool oil into the turbine housing. Not doing that causes the oil to sludge up in the housing over time.
Now all this being said, the seals can and do leak but if the pressure is maintained in the housing, it's just the same as any other leak in that it shouldn't be a problem other than checking your oil level. I'm pretty sure the seals can be rebuilt too.
What you said was
Also, the bearings on the turbine are not physical bearings
that is incorrect, there are physical bearings in a turbo. You also stated
They are not and if you read the quote you posted, it explicitly says what I've been telling you.
again you are incorrect since the link I posted clearly stated there are sleeve bearings in a turbo in bold below.
The only applications I've seen with no bearings on internal combustion engines is cams that run in aluminum journals and cam caps. There are no "physical" bearings in those. The cams rides on a film of oil, in the aluminum head, but they are considered bearingless applications.
Turbo's require very precise clearances and tolerances so they use machined bearings in the housings.
Also you're last post on the seals is kinda unusual.
Now all this being said, the seals can and do leak but if the pressure is maintained in the housing, it's just the same as any other leak in that it shouldn't be a problem other than checking your oil level. I'm pretty sure the seals can be rebuilt too
I agree the turbos can be rebuilt, but the pressure cannot be maintained in the housing since there are dynamic exhaust pressures depending on oil pressure, engine load and flow. It's a seal problem that is hard since besides dealing with the extreme heat the seals have differential pressure cases as well.
This is the quote from the link I posted
With a sleeve bearing, the shaft turns without friction on an oil film in the sleeve bearing bushing. For the turbocharger, the oil supply comes from the engine oil circuit. The bearing system is designed such that brass floating bushings, rotating at about half shaft speed, are situated between the stationary centre housing and the rotating shaft. This allows these high speed bearings to be adapted such that there is no metal contact between shaft and bearings at any of the operating points. Besides the lubricating function, the oil film in the bearing clearances also has a damping function, which contributes to the stability of the shaft and turbine wheel assembly. The hydrodynamic load-carrying capacity and the bearing damping characteristics are optimised by the clearances. The lubricating oil thickness for the inner clearances is therefore selected with respect to the bearing strength, whereas the outer clearances are designed with regard to the bearing damping. The bearing clearances are only a few hundredths of a millimetre.
The one-piece bearing system is a special form of a sleeve bearing system. The shaft turns within a stationary bushing, which is oil scavenged from the outside. The outer bearing clearance can be designed specifically for the bearing damping, as no rotation takes place.
Last edited by Legend2TL; Jul 29, 2015 at 04:34 PM.
2014 Tech Navi
Jenkins in Ocala has been really good to us (when we used to buy a bunch of Acuras) so they gave her a really good deal and didn't require the VW be repaired. She hates the look of it but likes the inside. I suggested checking out the TLX but she won't buy new (minus the Passat) and they didn't have any demo's or anything. On the plus side, they have treated us extremely well for all services and usually change the oil for $25 or less (in my infiniti, her lexus, etc).
Last edited by 1StGenCL; Jul 30, 2015 at 05:21 PM.
Simple, she trusts the dealer. The same service people have been there and when I was modding my first CL, they were always asking what I was doing and even helped me transplant the TL navi into my 97 way back in the day. They have been extremely helpful and gone out of their way for her so she went to them. At one point, before Acura got the beak, we had a 2 TL's and 2nd gen CL plus a few trade ins.
I thought the same, reflectors looked cleared but in other pics, they aren't. I just spoke with her and she was screaming at the navi, ahhh family.
Quick question: Do you think Acura/Honda will engineer a substantially better turbo than Ford, VW, etc.? Or, do you think that inherently the greater complexity just means that we are never again (once turbos take over) going to have an Acura engine that often goes 200k + miles, or whatever, without major work?
You should really go to the 4G section and look at the oil consumption threads over there. There are people with under 70k miles that have had their engines rebuilt by Honda already and many more that want to start class action against Honda.
Honda even had a TSB out a couple years ago with the K series for the same issue in the TSX etc.
Originally Posted by 1StGenCL
Well....she bought this monstrosity
2014 Tech Navi
Jenkins in Ocala has been really good to us (when we used to buy a bunch of Acuras) so they gave her a really good deal and didn't require the VW be repaired. She hates the look of it but likes the inside. I suggested checking out the TLX but she won't buy new (minus the Passat) and they didn't have any demo's or anything. On the plus side, they have treated us extremely well for all services and usually change the oil for $25 or less (in my infiniti, her lexus, etc).
As long as she's happy that's what matters.
The dealer didn't want the Passat fixed, probably because they could get the Turbo replaced for a fraction of the cost and VW Diesels have great resale value (at least my area) even on high mileage ones. Personally I would have replaced the turbo and enjoyed another 177k miles with the car.
She should be safe with a Non SHAWD model (Hopefully) considering the oil burning, prop shaft and torque convertor issues they where having.
You should really go to the 4G section and look at the oil consumption threads over there. There are people with under 70k miles that have had their engines rebuilt by Honda already and many more that want to start class action against Honda.
Honda even had a TSB out a couple years ago with the K series for the same issue in the TSX etc.
As long as she's happy that's what matters.
The dealer didn't want the Passat fixed, probably because they could get the Turbo replaced for a fraction of the cost and VW Diesels have great resale value (at least my area) even on high mileage ones. Personally I would have replaced the turbo and enjoyed another 177k miles with the car.
She should be safe with a Non SHAWD model (Hopefully) considering the oil burning, prop shaft and torque convertor issues they where having.
Well, I would have agreed but the VW dealer would do nothing ($2k for the car on trade in with nothing but Hyundais on the lot and wouldn't really look through their inventory with her) so she went to Acura and they gave her $7k for the car. Yes, I was worried about the financing and their trickery but she deals with numbers all day and is good with this, so hopefully she didn't get screwed. I don't believe she went with their financing anyway so she should be good.
Acura even offered to go tow the VW from the dealer and threw in tint because they knew the VW was done. While VW was close and the tint is minimal in cost, it was very thoughtful and will keep her in Acura most likely.
She doesn't need all wheel drive and got all the the tech so overall, good car but I wish it had the better wheels (these tires will be cheaper though).
Edit - It is certified Preowned or whatever they call it and they gave her insane extended warranties including a bumper to bumper and drivetrain. This is also the one dealer that I completely trust and will randomly add coupons to services, used to stock her Lexus oil filter just for her despite not selling Lexus, always quick to offer a loaner, and have told us when we don't need things done that we thought we did. The more I talk about them, the more I am ok with the beak.
Jenkins Auto group in Ocala, FL is incredible!
Last edited by 1StGenCL; Jul 31, 2015 at 07:14 AM.
They are not and if you read the quote you posted, it explicitly says what I've been telling you. Ball bearings have this horrible problem of expanding and contracting with heat. Floating a sleeve (and therefore the turbine shaft) on a film of oil does not have this issue. The problems start occurring when there's sludge buildup in the housing and therefore reducing oil pressure to the shaft which causes the sleeves to grind on the housing and fvck all kinds of shit up. With proper maintenance/use (use the right oil, change it often, run the engine for a bit after you stop, do a longer cool down period after hard driving, etc), this does not really happen and therefore the bearings never fail mostly because the bearing is actually a film of oil which is constantly pumped through. Newer turbo cars will run the oil pump for a period of time until the oil temp in the turbo reaches an acceptable level to prevent sludge.
...
You are wrong that ball bearing have a horrible problem in turbos, they are commonly used in Garrett turbo's as well as IHI, and some KKK.
Quick question: Do you think Acura/Honda will engineer a substantially better turbo than Ford, VW, etc.? Or, do you think that inherently the greater complexity just means that we are never again (once turbos take over) going to have an Acura engine that often goes 200k + miles, or whatever, without major work?
Good question, turbos have gotten better with material science (metals and seal material), and computers helping with engine management (multi-dimensional mapping).
As far as Honda engineering goes, I think they are fairly conservative for durability and reliability and that's why they have not done many turbo applications. AFAIK Honda source their turbo's from IHI for their production and racing motors.
All this turbo talk and one little factoid I found was why turbos have easier life in diesels is the exhaust temp for a gasoline motor is ~300oF higher than a diesel.
It says "floating bearing" right in your link but cool. All turbos use ball bearings that wear out in minutes. New recommended PM for any FI car is to replace the turbo every 60k miles.
It says "floating bearing" right in your link but cool. All turbos use ball bearings that wear out in minutes. New recommended PM for any FI car is to replace the turbo every 60k miles.
meh, it's not what I say it's what Honeywell/Garrett one of the world's largest manufacturers of turbos says some of their turbo's use ball bearing but you know more than them
And I said
There are physical bearings on turbo's, take one apart and you'll see. They are typically sleeve bronze or ball bearings. The oil lubricates and cools the bearings.
which has been collaborated by the links I posted.
We should contact Ferrari and tell them their turbo provider does not know as much as you on the design and operation of turbos.
How much shaft play should my dual ball bearing turbo have?
A. The Garrett full ball-bearing turbo is designed to have clearance between the bearing cartridge and center housing for hydrodynamic damping in addition to the internal clearances of the bearing cartridge itself. Hydrodynamic damping uses the incompressible properties of a liquid (oil in this case) and the space around the bearing cartridge to dampen the shaft motion of the rotating assembly. When the turbo is new, or has not operated for a long period of time allowing most of the oil to drain out, the rotating assembly will move more in the radial direction than a typical journal-bearing turbo because there is no oil in the center housing. This condition is normal. As long as the shaft wheel spins freely and the wheels don't contact their respective housings, the assembly will function properly.
Hey you just stated these ball bearings in turbos wear out in minutes?
You also said there are no physical bearings in turbos
Also, the bearings on the turbine are not physical bearings, it's a layer of oil that the shaft floats on.
Also the link I posted says
brass floating bushings
.
which are physical bearings and are clearly visible in the photo.
But we all get it now, you know more than the major turbo manufacturers on how they work.
Last edited by Legend2TL; Jul 31, 2015 at 11:39 AM.
It says "floating bearing" right in your link but cool. All turbos use ball bearings that wear out in minutes. New recommended PM for any FI car is to replace the turbo every 60k miles.
Here's what Honeywell/Garrett say about sleeve (journal) vs ball bearings in turbos
Ball Bearings in Original Equipment – Pumping up the MAZDASPEED Protegé’s heart rate is a Garrett T25 turbocharger system. With Garrett technology on board, the vehicle gains increased acceleration without sacrificing overall efficiency and it has received many rave reviews from the world’s top automotive press for it’s unprecedented performance.
But you said
Ball bearings have this horrible problem of expanding and contracting with heat.
AFWIW I said
Turbo's should last over 100K, but they are wear items.
just to keep it straight
Last edited by Legend2TL; Jul 31, 2015 at 12:08 PM.
No point in debating Turbos anymore, Sam and Legend! Momma got a 4G! No more boost related issues to be concerned with, just a whole lot of beak action. Hahaha. Congrats to her though, I'm sure it'll serve as a great DD and meet or exceed her expectations. Sounds like a great dealer too.
Congrats on the TL even if . At least the Acura dealer rocked even if Acura the corp got the 4G external design all wrong
The TL is comfy though and will definitely last, no question about it. That will last her 200k miles easy with routine maintenance, even with the quirks that can easily be found in the 4G TL section.
Majofo approval, I must tell her 
meh, it's not what I say it's what Honeywell/Garrett one of the world's largest manufacturers of turbos says some of their turbo's use ball bearing but you know more than them 
. At least the Acura dealer rocked even if Acura the corp got the 4G external design all wrong
