Here's an interesting analysis of data performed by Agent009 over at AutoSpies. It's kind of interesting how reality didn't quite match up with my expectations

http://www.autospies.com/news/Can-Yo...-We-Can-21596/

I won't explain it here. Just go look at it yourself. However, A couple things were surprising. First, Audi sells more cars in the $40k+ range then any of the standard "lux" brands. Also, of the big three jap cars, Infiniti sells the most cars over $40k, with Acura second and Lexus THIRD. Over 73% of the Lexus sales are under $40k!! Eventhough Lexus is the only Jap manufacturer venturing into the $70k+ market, they aren't that successful with it.

Anyone else surprised?

 

If it's indeed correct, then yes, I am surprised.

Edit: I'm guessing that since the MDX sells really well, that's what propelled Acura to 2nd. However, Lexus has more models over 40k, so it is perplexing.

 

True. We can't confirm these numbers so take them for what it's worth. Although, I have to say this; I live in a fairly upper middle class community. I see tuns of BMW 7's and MB S's but very fiew Lexus LS's. In fact, I think I see 1 or 2 LS's a month. Mostly ES and IS's driving around

 

Same here. I actually see a lot of RLs, if you can believe that.

And there are definitely a lot more Acuras than Lexus in my neighborhood as well.

 

If you look closely at how they came up with the numbers, you can see they were "massaged"...

1) This is based on MSRP, which is fine because it's the only "standard" of measure that is, well, standard, so this is only a small flaw.

2) Biggest flaw by far is the MSRP's selected are not balanced by actual (or even estimated) sales, but by "median" price, which is flawed given the spread of prices for certain models. One example that really caught my eye was the A4/S4...they sell TONS more A4's than S4's, so a sales-weighted 'average' would be closer to A4's prices, probably around mid-$30k's. But the method they used is 'median' of the price range. Even if Audi sold 99,999 A4's at $30k and sold only a SINGLE $55k S4, the median would still be in the $40k range, so you can see how this doesn't reflect "reality" (I'm just guestimating the numbers because I'm too lazy to find the actual prices used).

And you can see where it could also go the other way with other automakers, lets say for example one with a very low base price (stripped models that need to be special ordered that no one actually buys). This would give a lower median price in this survey, even though it does not reflect what is actually sold.

 

Agree, the flaw here is the average price used for each model group, although I don't think they were intentionally "massaged". We don't know exactly what the car truly sold for (minor problem) and we don't know what specific "trim" levels sold within each group. In the case of the 4 series, it's a huge spread. The A4 bases at $28k and and goes up to $66k for the RS-4 model. Also, these are just base prices. No way of telling what options or accessories were added.

This makes the numbers not-so-accurate. However, they are based in some degree of reality. I think the Audi 4 series scenerio that you pointed out is the worst and probably explains why Audi looks so good. In the same vein, it probably makes MB look worse because most MB's sell for much more then the base price (unlike Acura) which sells it's cars pretty much loaded.

I think it still shows some interesting things from the sales unit perspective, such as how everyone's flagship car sells in the single digit percentages relative to total sales (except the Lexus LS which accounts for 10% of total sales . Also, how BMW, Audi, and Infiniti get half their sales from the least expensive model they make. And I thought Acura's sales were one sided? Hell, they look balanced compared to some others.

Seeing this data compiled in one spot like this (assuming it's accurate) was very revealing.

 

Good catch about it not being a weighted average.



I also live in an upper middle class-lower upper class area and my observation is similar to yours. Individually, I see much more of the E65/66 7 series and W221 S class here than Lexus LS. I have not driven the W221 but have driven the 750LI, A8L and LS600hL. Out of those three (assuming I had the $$$), I would rather have the LS by a narrow margin over the A8.

Sidenote: The W221 seems to be MUCH MORE common around here than its W220 predecessor.

 

Yep, as was pointed out by MrDeeno, I think these numbers are cock-eyed a bit. I think MB is probably being understated here given how their cars sell relative to base price. Acura's numbers are probably the most accurate in this study given how they sell their cars. Everyone else needs to be adjusted somewhat

 

Most manufacturers break down actual sales by model, so you can get the number of car sales at the beginning of each year; certain "lux vehicle" models' sales are noted in publications like Forbes Magazine.
As noted above, use of the "median" price is really inaccurate.

I noted most of you posting in this thread are on the East Coast & FL, so your anecdotal evidence is likely not representative of California, which is probably a huge percentage of the lux market.
Out here in SoCal (LA County), we are drowning in Lexus models-- they seem to outnumber the BMW and MB. On the other hand, Audi cars are less conspicuous than Acura and Infiniti, while no one is buying the Audi SUVs, it seems, compared to the MDX, RDX, FX and Q. Of course, that's anecdotal evidence which may not be representative either.

 

I think there are probably just as many "lux" cars on the east coast as there are in CA, but maybe the preference varies, I don't know.

 

LOL, not to get off topic, but I think that statement is way wrong too. Southern Cal looks rich because it's so heavily "marketed" by the movie industry in a self serving promotion of itself. Fact is, the richest state in the country is New Jersey (believe it or not), followed closely by Connecticut. NYC is by far the richest city in terms of per capita wealth. Florida, where I am now, has a lot of wealthy people, but clearly the North East is where the real money is. They just don't advertise it as much. Too busy making money

 

I believe Maryland just surpassed NJ in that category (household income).

 

Oops, I stand corrected. Looks like NJ is second now. Point is, all the real money is in the North East (meaning the I95 corridor between Washington and Boston. It's also where most of the country lives (even with the migration trends out of the North). 10% of the entire countries population lives within 100 miles of Times Square.

Thanks for sharing the article eventhough it's WAY off topic. Mississippi is dead last I see. Probably not many MB dealerships in Jackson

 

2nd? Acura came in last...

 

Depends what statistic you are referring too. There were a few things to consider. In terms of total cars sold in the $40k+ price range. Lexus was last (with most of it's sales coming from cheapy ES and IS cars. Acura was second and Infiniti was first (based off MSRP base price)

 

I don't think it's about "looking rich" or wealth per capita. The issue is how many lux cars are sold and of what make.
California has 12% of the US population, and more new car dealerships (not broken down by lux v. non-lux) than any other state, followed by Texas, PA and NY in that order- http://www.nada.org/NR/rdonlyres/5E1...ealerships.pdf. California is way ahead of all states in sheer volume in new cars. My guess is that the West Coast is the largest market for lux cars although I haven't looked up the specific stats.
However, anecdotal evidence based on our individual observations in a specific location will be inherently inaccurate.

 

I agree Will. There's probably other factors in that equation besides pure wealth. Plus CA is a pure drivers state like FL with little public transit and good year round weather. If you gotta drive a lot, might as well drive in style! But, this is way O.T., so I guess it doesn't matter.

 

Holy crap!! If someone put a gun to me head and asked me which company Acura, Lexus or Infinti sells the most car over 40k I would diffenently be dead right now. The thing though is the precent of Lexus sold are under 40k might be lower but total amount of 40k for lexus is still higher then Infinti or Acura. The LS has done well in sales I mean I think they were at 3000 a month at one point but its just not enough to raise the precentage from the amount of people who can buy the IS and ES.

 

I wouldn't take any "analysis" from autolies to be scientific, let alone serious.

 

But that's where the lower end of the flaw comes into play...

For example (and making up numbers again), if the ES starts at $36k for a base model (low sales), and most models sold are optioned to $40k (most sales), and a fully optioned model tops out at $42k (low sales), the sales weighted average would be close to $40k, but since the study is using median price based on the price range alone, it would pin the price at $38.5k...

All this study shows is that you can do cool things with statistics...it doesn't tell us anything about reality.

 

aside from the RX, that is the only appealing Lexus SUV.

 

I'm with Phile on this one, anything from Autolies tends to be at least 50% bogus

 

Certainly the comments and people on that site are a bit ridiculous sometimes, but they also scout out interesting stories. Not sure I agree with the assertions that they are intentionally trying to spread BS.

I wouldn't get too hung up on the break points with the data. It could have been broken down in 25 $5k increments, gave finer results, but still showed basically the same things in terms of the main price points for a maker. It doesn't probably change some things; such as 73% of Lexus sales come from their lowest priced models, etc.

 

Did you not expect to find that the two cheapest *near* luxury car manufacturers wouldn't have the highest sales in the low end market?. That's all Acura sells is low end cheaper *near luxury* cars. That's their entire focus... It's the **entry level** near luxury car segment. Kind of a moment don't you think? I could have guessed that without looking at the stats. However those vehicles are *NEAR* luxury... not really a full luxury car. Acura only makes one true luxury vehicle and that's the RL. Which sold like crap...

All the other manufacturers have 1-2 entry level cars at the most. Then a large selection of higher luxury vehicles. Their prime focus isn't on entry level luxury; it may it be their bread and butter but the sheer number of Luxury vehicles over entry level speaks for itself.

Overall in the luxury car market Acura is dead last... that's what the stats are about.

I'm also not sure the numbers they presented are worth anything. Some of those MSRP #'s are off.

 

Again, the numbers tell you a few things. Focus on what you prefer. For me, evidently a less enlightened individual then you, I was surprised that so much of a "lux" car manufacturers sales really came from their "cheapest" cars in the "everyman" price range. For example, eventhough I knew MB didn't make it's bread and butter on sales of SLR's, I was surprised how one sided it was.

 

I suppose my "enlightenment" came a few years ago when I studied Acura's marketing and their vehicle line-up. I really got a feel for how they market themselves and how they dropped the ball from their early days of the Acura Legend.

Their niche is for the middle class. Seems to work; now they just need to bring *quality* and Luxury back to the brand name. No one takes them seriously as a luxury manufacturer anymore... IMO it'd be easier to bring out a new nameplate under Honda than it will be to fixed their tarnished image.

 

Not really going to get much argument from me on that one. Actually, the Acura position in that list seemed as expected. But there were a few other things in that list that caught me by surprise. Acura's in a sorry state right now. I feel worst for the dealers. Not a good time to be selling Acura's. Sales are down, but more importantly, everything's selling for invoice! That fact is hard to see in the reported numbers unless you have friends in the business. Maybe 07 is the year they hit rock bottom. Maybe it will force Honda to finally invest more time, money, and energy in this brand. If not, I agree they could loose this brand, or at least, have it become irrelevant. That last chapter still hasn't been written yet.

 

mrdeeno, you logic is impeccable. They should have used a Sales Weighted Average for more accuracy.

But, (and I'm not trying to be an ass or anything) your math is off. The Median is the middle value in an ordered set of numbers.

In your example you'd list all the 100,000 sales numbers in ascending order:

30, 30, 30 30, 30, ............. 30, 30, 30, 55.

Then the middle number in the list, in this case it would be 35, is the Median.

 

Yeah, interesting. But flawed analysis.

"Jaguar on the hand suprised most us by showing it's cache in the $70k+ market. It would be wise to not count Jaguar out just quite yet."


But half (2 of 4) of the Jaguar models are in or above the $70k range, yet, they've only sold a TOTAL of 12,000 (give or take) of all 4 cars.

The LS460/600 is the ONLY $70k car Lexus has and they've sold more than TWICE as many of that one car (26,000 give or take) than Jag has sold total.

So, yeah, I'd say "Jag is really on the move in the $70k+ segment."

 

Totally agree. That conclusion is questionable. You need to look at total sales to evaluate that statement. Based on that, Jaguar is just about dead in this country. I found the sales figures (and their distributions across models) to be the most statistically interesting. The authors sloting by under 40k, 40-70, and 70+, doesn't tell you much really. I understand he was trying to create categories for analysis, but you could slice it up several ways and see different results.

 

Yeah I mean Jagaur is gone. I think what happened what they were riding on brand image and kept building bad cars and people caught on. I mean Acura sells more cars a month then they have sold the whole year. Not to mention resale on them is in the absoutle pits so not only are you paying a lot your gonna lose a lot. Sorry about out of every singal luxury compnay out there they are doing the worst.

 

actually, my logic is still impeccable

This the excerpt from my post...

My example is pointing out their flaw of disregarding sales and the resulting inaccurate number...they just took the price range and picked the median, hence my example was that even if they sold 99,999 $30k A4's, and 1 $55k S4, the median used, DISREGARDING sales, is $42.5K, which is inaccurate.

But you are right, the median, if sales was included (which it is not), would be closer to reality, and the sales-weighted average would probably be even more accurate. They did neither.

 

And not to be an ass back to you

you're math is wrong...

the median of {30, 30, 30, 30, 30...30, 55} is 30.

 

i'm busy looking at the girl on the link!

 

Oops! Typo on my part.

Good catch.



I misunderstood your previous point, but I've got it now. Thanks for clarifying.

 

interesting read. Lets hope the 4th gen will give Acura some new life!

 

don't get me wrong Lexus builds a solid built car.
with the exception of the IS and soon coming IS-F. their about as fun as drinking a glass of water .
yes Lexus will last forever and ever. but fun to drive(minus our the IS line) No.

if you want fun to drive+decent quality go: Benz, or BMW.

IMHO: the japanese are trying to catch up to the Germans with the fun to drive cars in performance Lux sector.
the TL and TL-S is a great car. but i'm sorry a 335 is a little stronger car in that fight.
the C350 vs TL(not type s) is probably a equal match.
then even the 535 vs RL i think it's a stronger car.
The Germans in the small sedans have the M3 and C63 here soon Lexus will have the IS-F
The Germans have in the mid size sedan have the E63 and M5(which both of those are fucking beast) the japanese have nothing even close to these 500 hp beast
The Germans have in the large sedan the 7 series Alpina and S63(but you better have a crazy bank account) again the japanese have nothing.

 

in my mind, lexus tops bmw and mercedes.

german cars have lost their classy looks way back when. the only company still holdin that is lexus with its interior. although the body doesnt look as classy.

 

Forever is a long time.

By the way, did anyone see the new Consumer Reports reliability report yesterday? Toyota/Lexus dropped to 5th. Honda is 1st again. Acura is 2nd. It's hard to stay on the top.

Slightly back on-topic; I wonder how the recent reliability is specifically for the Lexus LS? Knowing that 73% of Lexus sales come from their "cheap" cars, I'd think they really would need to be concerned if Toyota starts screwing up the reliability on their LS model. That car (and it's sales success) has really been what defines Lexus. Without it they'd be Acura

 

I'd take consumer reports with a large grain of salt. A huge contradiction to their report is Edmunds... if you just simply go to the Edmunds site and lookup information for the Acura TL they have a ton of public feedback on the car. The #1 "con" against the car is quality. 50% of the people complaining about rattles; bad leather; dash fading...

I don't see how consumer reports missed this and could rank Acura in 2nd.

However using CR information/statistics it's a pretty sad day when your luxury brand that sells less vehicles is below your main brand in terms of reliability or quality.