I can't decide between an 05 TL or an 05 Corvette
08-27-2004, 06:06 PM
#41
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Corvette or TL? or did you mean Corvette or a Dodge Viper? 
Seriously though... if you want some luxury and a nice traveling ride get the TL. If you want a fun speedy racer, get the Corvette. I can't see anyone taking a long country side road trip in a Corvette and still be comfortable by the end of it. Get the TL if you plan to take trips and like a nice ride! Get the vette if you just want something to race around town and go fast.
Corvette ------------>
Acura TL ---------->
Back Seat ----> 
Seriously though... if you want some luxury and a nice traveling ride get the TL. If you want a fun speedy racer, get the Corvette. I can't see anyone taking a long country side road trip in a Corvette and still be comfortable by the end of it. Get the TL if you plan to take trips and like a nice ride! Get the vette if you just want something to race around town and go fast.
Corvette ------------>
Acura TL ---------->
Back Seat ---->
08-27-2004, 08:38 PM
#43
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by Flanagan
IMO the TL is a world-class car. It has shown that it can hang with the big guys in its class (BMW, M-B, Jag, Audi, etc) in spite of its FWD layout. The Corvette, on the ther hand, is a joke everywhere but America. Sure, we live in America, so who cares, right? Well, it does give some insight into what other cultures look for in a car, and I tend to agree with them more than most Americans. Generally (warning: umbrella statement 
) Americans look for a car that is "nice" or "fast" or "cool looking", rather than the things that really matter when driving: good combination of ride/handling, ergonomics, overall quality, value for money, etc. Power is give and take. It's nice to know that you can smoke the guy sitting next to you at the light, but power is also relative. Someone who has never driven a car with more than 200 hp will think the TL is extremely fast. Someone who is used to driving a fully built Supra will think that a Corvette is slow, so I'll not discuss the power differences here. That said, let's compare the two vehicles in question along these that matter most (to me 
) :
The Corvette is damped like a brick and understeers until you punch the throttle, at which point the tail will start to come around. It loves going straight, not so happy in the corners. The TL is damped comfortably, and remains mostly neutral, shading towards understeer. Sure, it doesn't have the absolute handling limit of the Corvette, but that is mostly due to contact patch.
Corvette ergonomics are horrendous. It feels backwards to me. Nothing is where I would like it, and some things are difficult to reach or work (switches obscured by steering wheels and shift lever, etc). The TL does have its ergonomic foibles, but it is sound for the most part.
As for quality, it's no comparison. The Corvette has panel gaps you can see from across a parking lot and interior plastics that resemble the texture and feel of coal. The interior is wholly depressing with all its hide-of-the-wild-naugabeast dark gray matter sucking up all the happy. For '05, they painted a few things silver, but kept all the 1/2" seams and naugahide tetures. The TL uses modern quality soft-touch plastics which are pattern matched to the leather and real aluminum trim (though it's too thin). Plus it's made by Honda, so barring the few squeaky cogs on this site, will work reliably and unremarkably for the duration.
As far as value for money, with the Corvette you are paying for a name and a reputation that exists in America only. For the same money, you can buy an M3 or a used M5, an Audi S4, or a Jag S-type R, all of which have near the power of the Corvette plus damn near the comfort and generally better handling than that of the TL. They are all overall superior cars ot the Corvette.
With the TL, you are paying for componentry and quality. For the same money, you can buy a BMW 325i with few options, an Audi A4 1.8t with options or 3.0 with nothing, a Jag X-type, a Subaru WRX STi, etc, all of which are overall inferior cars to the TL.
Phew.
PS I don't own either car, I drive a '98 2.3CL, so either would be an upgrade for me!
) Americans look for a car that is "nice" or "fast" or "cool looking", rather than the things that really matter when driving: good combination of ride/handling, ergonomics, overall quality, value for money, etc. Power is give and take. It's nice to know that you can smoke the guy sitting next to you at the light, but power is also relative. Someone who has never driven a car with more than 200 hp will think the TL is extremely fast. Someone who is used to driving a fully built Supra will think that a Corvette is slow, so I'll not discuss the power differences here. That said, let's compare the two vehicles in question along these that matter most (to me ) :The Corvette is damped like a brick and understeers until you punch the throttle, at which point the tail will start to come around. It loves going straight, not so happy in the corners. The TL is damped comfortably, and remains mostly neutral, shading towards understeer. Sure, it doesn't have the absolute handling limit of the Corvette, but that is mostly due to contact patch.
Corvette ergonomics are horrendous. It feels backwards to me. Nothing is where I would like it, and some things are difficult to reach or work (switches obscured by steering wheels and shift lever, etc). The TL does have its ergonomic foibles, but it is sound for the most part.
As for quality, it's no comparison. The Corvette has panel gaps you can see from across a parking lot and interior plastics that resemble the texture and feel of coal. The interior is wholly depressing with all its hide-of-the-wild-naugabeast dark gray matter sucking up all the happy. For '05, they painted a few things silver, but kept all the 1/2" seams and naugahide tetures. The TL uses modern quality soft-touch plastics which are pattern matched to the leather and real aluminum trim (though it's too thin). Plus it's made by Honda, so barring the few squeaky cogs on this site, will work reliably and unremarkably for the duration.
As far as value for money, with the Corvette you are paying for a name and a reputation that exists in America only. For the same money, you can buy an M3 or a used M5, an Audi S4, or a Jag S-type R, all of which have near the power of the Corvette plus damn near the comfort and generally better handling than that of the TL. They are all overall superior cars ot the Corvette.
With the TL, you are paying for componentry and quality. For the same money, you can buy a BMW 325i with few options, an Audi A4 1.8t with options or 3.0 with nothing, a Jag X-type, a Subaru WRX STi, etc, all of which are overall inferior cars to the TL.
Phew.
PS I don't own either car, I drive a '98 2.3CL, so either would be an upgrade for me!
For a little more of my background, I have roadraced mortorcycles, and have done some autocrossing and drag racing. I have a number of trophies to show that I'm an above average driver.
The C5 Corvette is considered a world class sports car. The new C6 even more so. It has circled Neurenburg (sp?) as fast as a Porsche Twin Turbo. If you don't think it can handle, come on down to Houston and let me take you for a ride in mine. I think you have a lot to learn about the newer Corvettes.
Your points on how the Corvette is looked at in other countries means nothing. Would you care to cite your sources? Read any of the road tests on the Corvette since the C5 came out in 1997. They drive sports cars from all over the world, and they always give the Corvette credit for being a world class sports car.
08-27-2004, 09:40 PM
#44
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Originally Posted by mrtgman
What do you guys think? I have never really been a Vette fan but man that 05 looks sweet! Nice redesign and with 400hp it's gotta fly! Any corvette owners or previous owners have any input to share? 
if i have extra 25k, take corvette anytime
08-27-2004, 09:43 PM
#45
yeah, vette all the way, unless you want tech features...but for your area get the vette! i was driving the 05 about 3 weeks ago (VP of GM is family friend) gotta love the push button start and stop :-D
08-27-2004, 11:06 PM
#46
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Originally Posted by jjsC5
You are one ingnorant individual. You clearly are way out of date on the Corvette.... They drive sports cars from all over the world, and they always give the Corvette credit for being a world class sports car.
However, I only cited the Corvette's reputation in other countries to make my point that, when using the mammalian brain (as opposed to the reptilian brain), the Corvette is not such a great car.Once again, this is all my opinion. I don't look at cars based on their cool factor. Sure, I lust after the odd Ferrari just as much as the next guy, but when one doesn't have the financial flexibility to justify a lustful purchase as expensive as a car, I believe that rational thinking should intervene. And my rational thinking is telling me that I'd buy a TL over a Corvette. But, if I were to become indpendently wealthy, I would buy cars with my reptilian brain. But I still wouldn't buy a Corvette. There are much cooler cars available.
Oh, as for sources, magazines such as CAR and EVO, as well as the television shows TopGear and 5th Gear, all from England, for a start. In fact, I'll throw out some quotes from the recent TopGear review of the C6:
Originally Posted by Richard Hammond from TopGear
"So this then is America's Porsche 911. But we've never really payed much attanetion to it here in Europe, because we have our own Porsche 911. It's called a Porsche 911."
"Now for the price, that may seem like a bargain. But quite sadly, there's alot of this car that's bargain basement."
"And there's more misery to come when you're driving it. The clutch is making my left leg hurt and the gearchange is out of a Victorian signal box."
"And then there's the chassis technology. The Corvette's rear suspension uses leaf springs. Let me make that live for you. If you went to your doctor's and he got a jar of leeches out. You know what I mean."
"Oh dear. Is this the pinnacle of American sports car icons? A plastic wedge with a horrible interior, clunky transmission, and suspension technology lifted from the Old Testament?"
"This is amazing, look at this! We're going 'round a bend! They don't have these in America, how did they know to do this? Sure, it only has leaf springs underneath, but then so did Charleton Heston's chariot, and look at the fun he had."
"There's the heads-up display. Now that's cool. It displays speed, revs, and all sorts. It's all very useful. But there's more. That's a G-meter. Now why would an American car need a G-meter?"
"That's a fast car! I mean it's nearly as quick as an Evo!"
"Now for the price, that may seem like a bargain. But quite sadly, there's alot of this car that's bargain basement."
"And there's more misery to come when you're driving it. The clutch is making my left leg hurt and the gearchange is out of a Victorian signal box."
"And then there's the chassis technology. The Corvette's rear suspension uses leaf springs. Let me make that live for you. If you went to your doctor's and he got a jar of leeches out. You know what I mean."
"Oh dear. Is this the pinnacle of American sports car icons? A plastic wedge with a horrible interior, clunky transmission, and suspension technology lifted from the Old Testament?"
"This is amazing, look at this! We're going 'round a bend! They don't have these in America, how did they know to do this? Sure, it only has leaf springs underneath, but then so did Charleton Heston's chariot, and look at the fun he had."
"There's the heads-up display. Now that's cool. It displays speed, revs, and all sorts. It's all very useful. But there's more. That's a G-meter. Now why would an American car need a G-meter?"
"That's a fast car! I mean it's nearly as quick as an Evo!"
Anyway, take it easy, I'm not trying to offend anyone. This is all my opinion. I think I'm entitled to that. And I'll try to keep my posts shorten than 100 pages next time.
08-27-2004, 11:14 PM
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God, I miss Top Gear sooooo much! How do you get it, Flanagan?
Personally, won't ever buy another GM product. Had one VERY bad experience and will never go back.
To me, the Corvette has an image problem. Around here, they all seem to be driven by guys in their 50s who are trying too hard. There are now so many alternatives (350Z, etc), they must be losing ground. Oh, and a MANUAL roof in a car that costs that much?!?!?!
Personally, won't ever buy another GM product. Had one VERY bad experience and will never go back.
To me, the Corvette has an image problem. Around here, they all seem to be driven by guys in their 50s who are trying too hard. There are now so many alternatives (350Z, etc), they must be losing ground. Oh, and a MANUAL roof in a car that costs that much?!?!?!
08-27-2004, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Pot80h
God, I miss Top Gear sooooo much! How do you get it, Flanagan?
Personally, won't ever buy another GM product. Had one VERY bad experience and will never go back.
To me, the Corvette has an image problem. Around here, they all seem to be driven by guys in their 50s who are trying too hard. There are now so many alternatives (350Z, etc), they must be losing ground. Oh, and a MANUAL roof in a car that costs that much?!?!?!
Personally, won't ever buy another GM product. Had one VERY bad experience and will never go back.
To me, the Corvette has an image problem. Around here, they all seem to be driven by guys in their 50s who are trying too hard. There are now so many alternatives (350Z, etc), they must be losing ground. Oh, and a MANUAL roof in a car that costs that much?!?!?!
They have full episodes there available through BitTorrent. The trackers are down for some of the episodes right now, and alot of the episodes aren't offfered at all, but it's a start. Once the season starts again, it'll pick back up.
08-28-2004, 07:02 AM
#49
Three Wheelin'
Flanagan - Have you spent any time driving a C5? I have - so far over 30,000 miles - much of it on back roads and some of it autocrossing. That's why I think my opinion has merrit. I actually have one and know how it handles. I also know what others who have driven it have to say - including racers and road testers.
The quotes you show are typical of the brits. They talk about the "technogy". Sure it has a leaf spring. I could care less what is has, I care how it works. It's like knocking it for having a pushrod engine. So what. Mine has 350 hp with pushrods. The Z06 and new C6 have 405/400 hp with pushrods.
I referred to you as "ignorant" because your comments are totally the opposite of those who drive and test cars for a living, and those like myself who actually own them. You say you could care less about my experience (racing etc). Fair enough. You tell us what experience YOU have with driving competitively and how many miles YOU have behind the wheel of C5's, and we'll just let the people who read this forum decide who to believe. Oh, and if they want to believe the Brits - that's even better. Look at their history of turning out quality cars!!!
The quotes you show are typical of the brits. They talk about the "technogy". Sure it has a leaf spring. I could care less what is has, I care how it works. It's like knocking it for having a pushrod engine. So what. Mine has 350 hp with pushrods. The Z06 and new C6 have 405/400 hp with pushrods.
I referred to you as "ignorant" because your comments are totally the opposite of those who drive and test cars for a living, and those like myself who actually own them. You say you could care less about my experience (racing etc). Fair enough. You tell us what experience YOU have with driving competitively and how many miles YOU have behind the wheel of C5's, and we'll just let the people who read this forum decide who to believe. Oh, and if they want to believe the Brits - that's even better. Look at their history of turning out quality cars!!!
08-28-2004, 07:57 AM
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I hate American cars more than most folks (I've driven far too many bad ones), and GM in particular. However, if I could afford a Vette and didn't have to fit kids in the back, I'd probably be driving one. Sure the interior sucks (not sure about the C6), but that's not why you buy it. And from what I've heard, despite the incredible performance (power and handling), the ride is quite compliant. Sure there are other nice cars in the same price range, but not many (any?) with the performance per buck that you can get a Vette for. And a turbo-charge 4 (ala STi and Evo) just doesn't compare to an NA 8, so. Not too mention the extreme "boy racer" styling - good for the "kids" these days, but awkward looking for anyone over their mid-20s. Oops, I guess that's a stereotype too. Oh well.
And lastly, no offense, but the Brits are certainly not the people that I'd be taking automobile advice/comments from. Sure that's a generalization, but you get my point.
And lastly, no offense, but the Brits are certainly not the people that I'd be taking automobile advice/comments from. Sure that's a generalization, but you get my point.
08-28-2004, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by ndabunka
Yea, why would you want the nice throaty sound of 400HP V8 when you could have the high-pitched girly winning of a 6-cyl running at marginal tolerance levels. More of those M3 have blown up than you would care to even know about.
ive owned high hp v8s from gm before. i know the difference between the cars, im not stupid. i was simply stating my preference for that kind of money. there are mamy reasons why i prefer the m3 over the vette. yes, i know they have touchy engines and yes i know it is 6cyl. thanks for making sure i was aware of those points though. i appreciate it
its just my opinion and it would be my money not yours so relax. why does everyone always have to believe that their opinion is the only one that is right.
08-28-2004, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by missmyprelude
And lastly, no offense, but the Brits are certainly not the people that I'd be taking automobile advice/comments from. Sure that's a generalization, but you get my point.
Yes, some British cars have sucked, but so have some American cars (don't make me say "Pinto"!) But the Brits also get to drive some cool cars that (unfortunately) Americans don't - like the TVRs and, until recently, the Lotuses (Lotusi?).
The Corvette to Americans is an icon, and brings a whole suitcase full of nostalgia. The same thing is true of the Jaguar and MG's to the British. Personally, I wouldn't drive either - that's why I buy Japanese!!
08-28-2004, 04:10 PM
#55
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Originally Posted by mrtgman
Interesting That No One Has Mentioned The Stereotypes About Vette Drivers. Ya Know, Mid Life Crisis,balding, Etc... I Realize That These Are 2 Completely Differant Cars But I Guess It Will Come Down Down To Leasing Numbers. I Would Guess That The Vette Sales Guys Will Try To Play Games Based On The New Style Etc. So They Probably Won't Lease Well. Anyway I Did Not Like My C240 Because It Felt Very Cheap And Cramped Inside. The Ml320 That I Currently Have Is Very Basic, No Thrills, Boring!
08-28-2004, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by sleeks
ive owned high hp v8s from gm before. i know the difference between the cars, im not stupid. i was simply stating my preference for that kind of money. there are mamy reasons why i prefer the m3 over the vette. yes, i know they have touchy engines and yes i know it is 6cyl. thanks for making sure i was aware of those points though. i appreciate it its just my opinion and it would be my money not yours so relax.
why does everyone always have to believe that their opinion is the only one that is right.
its just my opinion and it would be my money not yours so relax. why does everyone always have to believe that their opinion is the only one that is right.
09-01-2004, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Flanagan
IMO the TL is a world-class car. It has shown that it can hang with the big guys in its class (BMW, M-B, Jag, Audi, etc) in spite of its FWD layout. The Corvette, on the ther hand, is a joke everywhere but America. Sure, we live in America, so who cares, right? Well, it does give some insight into what other cultures look for in a car, and I tend to agree with them more than most Americans. Generally (warning: umbrella statement ) Americans look for a car that is "nice" or "fast" or "cool looking", rather than the things that really matter when driving: good combination of ride/handling, ergonomics, overall quality, value for money, etc. Power is give and take. It's nice to know that you can smoke the guy sitting next to you at the light, but power is also relative. Someone who has never driven a car with more than 200 hp will think the TL is extremely fast. Someone who is used to driving a fully built Supra will think that a Corvette is slow, so I'll not discuss the power differences here. That said, let's compare the two vehicles in question along these that matter most (to me ) :
The Corvette is damped like a brick and understeers until you punch the throttle, at which point the tail will start to come around. It loves going straight, not so happy in the corners. The TL is damped comfortably, and remains mostly neutral, shading towards understeer. Sure, it doesn't have the absolute handling limit of the Corvette, but that is mostly due to contact patch.
Corvette ergonomics are horrendous. It feels backwards to me. Nothing is where I would like it, and some things are difficult to reach or work (switches obscured by steering wheels and shift lever, etc). The TL does have its ergonomic foibles, but it is sound for the most part.
As for quality, it's no comparison. The Corvette has panel gaps you can see from across a parking lot and interior plastics that resemble the texture and feel of coal. The interior is wholly depressing with all its hide-of-the-wild-naugabeast dark gray matter sucking up all the happy. For '05, they painted a few things silver, but kept all the 1/2" seams and naugahide tetures. The TL uses modern quality soft-touch plastics which are pattern matched to the leather and real aluminum trim (though it's too thin). Plus it's made by Honda, so barring the few squeaky cogs on this site, will work reliably and unremarkably for the duration.
As far as value for money, with the Corvette you are paying for a name and a reputation that exists in America only. For the same money, you can buy an M3 or a used M5, an Audi S4, or a Jag S-type R, all of which have near the power of the Corvette plus damn near the comfort and generally better handling than that of the TL. They are all overall superior cars ot the Corvette.
With the TL, you are paying for componentry and quality. For the same money, you can buy a BMW 325i with few options, an Audi A4 1.8t with options or 3.0 with nothing, a Jag X-type, a Subaru WRX STi, etc, all of which are overall inferior cars to the TL.
Phew.
PS I don't own either car, I drive a '98 2.3CL, so either would be an upgrade for me!
) Americans look for a car that is "nice" or "fast" or "cool looking", rather than the things that really matter when driving: good combination of ride/handling, ergonomics, overall quality, value for money, etc. Power is give and take. It's nice to know that you can smoke the guy sitting next to you at the light, but power is also relative. Someone who has never driven a car with more than 200 hp will think the TL is extremely fast. Someone who is used to driving a fully built Supra will think that a Corvette is slow, so I'll not discuss the power differences here. That said, let's compare the two vehicles in question along these that matter most (to me ) :The Corvette is damped like a brick and understeers until you punch the throttle, at which point the tail will start to come around. It loves going straight, not so happy in the corners. The TL is damped comfortably, and remains mostly neutral, shading towards understeer. Sure, it doesn't have the absolute handling limit of the Corvette, but that is mostly due to contact patch.
Corvette ergonomics are horrendous. It feels backwards to me. Nothing is where I would like it, and some things are difficult to reach or work (switches obscured by steering wheels and shift lever, etc). The TL does have its ergonomic foibles, but it is sound for the most part.
As for quality, it's no comparison. The Corvette has panel gaps you can see from across a parking lot and interior plastics that resemble the texture and feel of coal. The interior is wholly depressing with all its hide-of-the-wild-naugabeast dark gray matter sucking up all the happy. For '05, they painted a few things silver, but kept all the 1/2" seams and naugahide tetures. The TL uses modern quality soft-touch plastics which are pattern matched to the leather and real aluminum trim (though it's too thin). Plus it's made by Honda, so barring the few squeaky cogs on this site, will work reliably and unremarkably for the duration.
As far as value for money, with the Corvette you are paying for a name and a reputation that exists in America only. For the same money, you can buy an M3 or a used M5, an Audi S4, or a Jag S-type R, all of which have near the power of the Corvette plus damn near the comfort and generally better handling than that of the TL. They are all overall superior cars ot the Corvette.
With the TL, you are paying for componentry and quality. For the same money, you can buy a BMW 325i with few options, an Audi A4 1.8t with options or 3.0 with nothing, a Jag X-type, a Subaru WRX STi, etc, all of which are overall inferior cars to the TL.
Phew.
PS I don't own either car, I drive a '98 2.3CL, so either would be an upgrade for me!
I also have an '04 Audi S4. There is no contest as to which car is more fun to drive...the Z06 wins hands down. Sure, it's noisier, harder to get into, etc. It should be. It's a sports car. If you can believe it, the ride in the S4 is harsher than the Z06, a car that can pull 1g and circle the Nurburgring with the best of them. That's due to the very narrow sidewall on the Audi's tires along with the fact that the Z06 has cushier seats. If you've never driven a C5, you cannot base your opinion of the Corvette on previous models. The C6 should be even better. I find it rather strange that your 2 choices boil down to a TL vs C6 but if that is truly the case, you will not be disappointed with the C6.
09-01-2004, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ndabunka
Yea, why would you want the nice throaty sound of 400HP V8 when you could have the high-pitched girly winning of a 6-cyl running at marginal tolerance levels. More of those M3 have blown up than you would care to even know about.
My advice to mrtgman would be to go test drive a used 03 or 04 Corvette (there is no way your getting a test drive of a new ‘Vette). You either love of hate the feel of a big, pushrod V8 rumbling along.
Another item that takes some getting used to, at least for Honda guys, is the way the Vette’s engine shudders when you start it - and when you shut it off. Refinement? Not exactly.
Then there is the steering. IMHO the steering of the Corvette is somewhere between vague and rubbery. Out here in the show me state (MO) we have the worst roads in the country. The ‘Vette’s handling on these roads, when pushing it a bit in rough twisties, is unstable at best.
The Corvette is going to be faster and get more looks. Otherwise, the TL is a superior car by almost every automotive engineering standard.
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