phile

You're just BSing at this point. The fact is, you point out that you have seen a few RLs on the road, thus you are now saying they don't sell well. But Acura is pretty much on target.

Now you're taking the target sales volume and turning that into a whole new argument about why it's not selling. If you think I can't see through that, you're only kidding yourself.

TLer

Well you are implying wrong. You were the one who brought sales targets into the equation here. All I said was I don't see this car selling just like the thread asks and here is the question just in case you missed it "How well is the new RL selling?"

phile

Nice try. I brought in the sales target to try to rationalize against what you wrote. Go back and see what you wrote....if you can imply something else from what you wrote, I'd like to know it.

Now you're the one bringing the sales target argument as Acura's fear of failure, blah blah blah. Totally taking it into new arguments. Here's something you probably don't also know: MB, despite selling 50K a year for the E-Class, had actually expected to sell more than that initially. They had to cut production when they realized they overshot their sales target.

And FYI, maybe you can benefit more from re-reading the question than I. It asks how well the RL is selling, and per the market report, it's selling as expected. It did not ask you how many RL's you saw on the road and then make a statement about how well it's selling based on your observation.

And I'm just going to end this right here; if you're too obstinate to see the facts as they are, I really can't help you understand it any better.

F23A4

Thinking aloud: 1) build a new mouse trap, 2) lightly market it, 3) set an arbitrarily low sales goal, 4) actual sales figures easily exceed arbitrarily low sales goal, 5) call product a sales success.

F23A4

Seriously though, I dont really know how successful the new RL is thus far. But here's some perspective on it from Forbes magazine, a magazine that is more than likely aimed at the same socioeconomic demographic as the RL itself.

TLer

I "imply" from your response that you're the real obstinate person here.

GreenMonster

That's not far off from what I've seen in some companies...

You forgot step 4B..

If sales figures don't meet expectation, adjust the forcast... Then you can say we're 10% above forcast and call it a success...

F23A4

.....I missed that VERY accurate sub-step.

phile

It's a double edged sword for Acura.

I bet if Acura priced it at 40K and sold a bunch, someone would say it's only selling that way because it's priced so low.

But it's at 50K and selling in small numbers, and we get people calling doom.

Can't win with the naysayers.

F23A4

Maybe you're right (ref: double edged sword).

I know the argument about the 'V8 engine' is getting old and the new RL's V6 is pretty remarkable in its own rite. But I think it really does come down to that V8 motor being what defines your flagship sedan. Even if it only represents 25% of the actual flagship models sold.

F23A4, who's favorite $50k sedan is the CTS-V.

MADCAT

Acura will never become a marque like BMW because it is considered a luxury Honda. People are not going to pay over $60K Cdn for an Acura; instead they’ll pay for a BMW for the status symbol. Keep in mind that Acura cars are as good as BMW in technology. With the RL, Acura has hit the wall in terms of price and status.

If Acura wants to get the BMW crowd. They got to make it so that their cars have the same aspects of what makes a BMW/Merc desirable.

There are a couple essential factors that I think will make Acura compete with BMW.

1. Produce cars with rear-wheel drive.
2. Increase the torque in the engine.
3. Create in house performance cars. Mugean and other tuner names cannot cut it. They need a name that is prestigious and powerful. It needs to resonant with the normal population and not only the tuner crowd

phile

Just hold on a little longer. The rumor mills have been churning out songs of a future V8 flagship. Honda finally caved in to the pickup truck, I have hope for a V8, even if it's just a rumor at this point.

M TYPE X

Honda races V8s ... and their racing program isn't just a sideshow.

F23A4

My money is on Honda's first production V8 debuting in the new NSX, followed by the 4G Legend. As with most Honda engines, I'm sure it'll be impressive.

Regarding the Ridgeline, that truck will probably only appeal to Hondaphiles that need some p/u truck functionality (read: weekend trips to Home Depot/Lowes or Boy Scout camping). I doubt they will sway many buyers away from the F150 and Tundra (much the way the RL will probably attract few 5-series and E-class buyers).

MADCAT

You mean like 80% of the pickups that don’t carry anything at all? I think Honda hit the mark on this truck of the segment. We just don’t know it yet. There is 10 pickups in my street and 8 of them don’t carry anything at all in the bed. 2 of them carried small items, but nothing what the pickup is potential of carrying.

Honda is going sell every one they’ll make.

F23A4

....and I'm certain Hondaphiles with truck desires will flock to it in mass.

MADCAT

oh yeh...sorry to go off topic.

LessisBestmakingendsmeet

That is a great post. It would be a start but its much bigger than that. Remember, BMW is owned by BMW, so they will ALWAYS have that status and advantage over EVERYONE. Even Benz lost some prestige merging with Chrysler.
Acura needs to not worry about BMW.

F23A4

With the G35 actively eating up sales of the E46, BMW is probably more concerned with Infiniti than Acura.

DC lost some prestige due to poor QC, which folks correlate to the MB's merger with Chrysler.

phile

I think we'll see it in the new MDX, as least as an option. Maybe a full size pickup from Honda, too.

I don't think the Ridgeline will bomb, but the market is much different than the RL's market. If you think the Euro-philes are hard to win over, I think fans of the Big 3, in regards to pickup trucks, are even more loyal to the bowtie and the blue oval.

Stevens24

I think at this moment Acura main target is Audi. They get their fair share of BMW and Merc people. Especially in a colder climate. I am just always fascinated by people who post on this board in relation to what i see in my daily work. Companies rarely go from 0 to hero overnight. Acura sales goal for 05 is 217k units. While I do think BMW has its brand image I don't see the new 3 selling as well when it starts at 32-33k base. The Rl will be fine. Add the RDX in 06 and Acura shopuld have no problem selling 240k units which will put them on par with most other manufacturers.

F23A4

I've seen very little to surmise that Acura is targeting Audi, as Audi is a relatively unremarkable automaker. I'm not sure how you may define 'colder climate', RWD Bimmers and G35s pretty much permeate the NYC area (which does tend to get nippy a couple of times a year).

As far as people on this board (as with other boards: Maxima.org, Clubgp.com, Altimas.net, g35driver.com, etc,..), most of us are enthusiasts and probably dont represent the mainstream of the autobuying public. (ex.: Where the TL-S is probably the 2G TL most of us would opt for, most of the buying public would just get a TL-P and call it a day.) To wit, we aim high on what we would (and sometimes do) purchase and see V8 flagships out of Caddy, BMW, MB, Infiniti & Lexus as preferable over a 6 cylinder flagship from Acura (no matter how competent the car is).

So will the RL be fine? Only time will tell for certain but, I think all of us appreciate the RL for what it is. I'd also go out on a limb and proclaim that most would probably perfer something else for $50k.

The new 3/4 series will sell well just because of its brand image. Right now, only the G35 is truly poised to make measurable inroads in drawing sales away from the baby Bimmers. (<--- my opinion)

(The jury is still out on the RDX for obvious reasons but, I do picture it taking some sales away from the Nissan Murano but not making a big impact on sales of the trendy FX. )

Hou-RL

My wife went from a BMW 528i to an RL. She had a choice to buy an MB E350, BMW 530i (with the new R6 engine), BMW 645 and she chose the RL. Granted that she has the option to sell it if she doesn't want to keep it. I like it so much in fact that I may take it as my daily driver. She was fed up with the maintenance issues of the Germans at this time. Better to be able to drive a car than own one that the dealers want to keep at their locations while you make the payments.

As far as the money factor, unless you have bought MB's or BMW's then you dont understand what a bargain this car really is? In fact, $50K wont last long because the value of this car is bound to increase once people discover what is included for the dollar.

The V6 is not an issue and is comparable compared to the E350 or 530i since they are also both V6's. Those prices do not include all wheel drive. Especially since the Germans are all about a' la carte.

Spec out the benz or the BMW and then come back to this forum and post your findings.

BTW: The Benz E350 is $66300 comparibly equipped
The BMW 5301 (R6 engine) is $62800 comparibly equipped.

Neither of these cars offer all of the options and features included in the RL. They are on the way but at a cost. They dont play DVD-A's and many other technological features.

The drive is different but not in a bad way. Just not a German drive.

In short, it's not about the money with us but the quality and this is far better quality at this time. The Germans are going to lose ground to the Japanese unless they resolve the quality issues.

LessisBestmakingendsmeet

BMW is worried about Benz, Audi and Lexus. infiniti ain't even sold in Europe, BMWs home...And G35 sales are 1/2 of TL sales....

Hou-RL is right, its about the quality or lack thereof of the Germans.

phile

I would post a link, but I don't feel like doing the work for you. In short, you're wrong. Acura sells more TLs than Infiniti sells G35s, but the difference isn't as large as that.

Stevens24

If you just include the sedan it is close to double. If you include both coupe and sedan the difference is about 6k units.

phile

You are correct. He should've clarified that point, though.

F23A4

Kudos to Infiniti for giving the consumer market two configuration choices on this model. Both of which seem to be selling successfully

scalbert

Better check out your BMW's better as that 528i and the 530i are Inline-6 engines, not V6's.

But in the end there was the 540i and now the 545i which are V8s and have an impressionable impact on the market. Regardless of the power output there is a perception aspect to the lead vehcile.

matelot

Isn't it wise to avoid the RL beause sh-awd is version 1.0 ? there has got to be bugs no ?

F23A4

Exactly the point I tried to make a while back.

Hou-RL

Sorry about that! Inline 6, Scalbert you are correct! But the point is that they are comparable and are all 6 cylinders. However, we are talking about apples to apples. BMW and MB both sell far more 6 cylinders than they do 8 cylinders. The cost from MB or BMW for the V8 prestige is $10K. That is what an V8 cost compared to a 6 cylinder. As far as prestige go , who cares.? I have an '04 996 TT and an '05 MB SL500 so prestige is not of my concern. Quality is the real issue! The engines don't have many issues but the electrical and materials are where the majority of the problems are. Many people, especially those I dicuss this with, are fed up with the quality issues and time spent in the shop from the German cars. I would much rather have a car in my garage than at the dealer. The dealer doesn't pay any car notes when it sits there for 2 months out of the year. If they paid the note for the time in the shop then I wouldn't care. It is just too much trouble to have to fbring my car in all the time for the light going out just becasue I put my foot on the pedal. The other headlight going out because I engaged the switch. Get the point1 The Japanese cars are not giving us that kind of problems. We need reliable cars that we can driive daily and not have to get to know the service advisor so that we can hopefully get a loaner car within the next week or two.




The technology is not totally new.

I beleive it started on the prelude with the feature working on the front wheel drive. I termed it SF-AWAD but I forgot the name. Then the MDX has the more advanced feature of the Prelude's version SF-AWD applied to all wheels. Acura just upped the ante and gave their flagship car the latest tweak to it. I realize the risk in buying a new model but it is no riskier than buying anoher Porsch, MB or BMW. The engine isn't new since it is also a reworked versionof what the MDX uses. The one thing about Acura/Honda is that they dont just put a new feature in cars and hope for the best. That is exactly what we feel the Germans are doing right now. My wife and I love our cars but have better things to do than spend time at dealerships. She loooovves BMW since she was a kid but refuses to go through this again.

slo007

Very simple: the Dollar is losing value to the Euro. The less the Dollar is worth, the higher the price of all European products, including cars; hence the huge increase in price!!

For better prices, the currency exchange would have to revert direction.

scalbert

I am fortunate in that of the German and Japanese makes I have had; BMW/Audi and Honda/Acura, all have been very reliable. Nevertheless, what suits you may not fit others; the vehicle may be their primary transportation and may be their prestige vehicle. Having that larger engine option does convey a greater exclusiveness factor and greater prestige to the brand. In reality, I agree with you to a point as it is not fully relevant. But at the same time I realize that regardless of the output, in the eyes of many consumers the V8 is just better.

The SH system on the Prelude employed similar technology but was limited to just transferring power between the front wheel. The SHAWD system has one, if not two, additional electronically controlled clutches which significantly separates it from the not entirely praised system on the Prelude. Plus, the new SHAWD system is moving noticeably more mass and without the FWD traction limitation will incur greater load.

cob3683

That very well may be true. If I was one of the people who got the first 04's and didn't know about the price hike I would have been pretty pissed when they showed me the bill.

MADCAT

WOOHOO...I saw my first RL today!...that thing looks sweet!

F23A4

I saw one last weekend. Looks nice but really doesnt stand out much; which may be good and bad.

Sdog2012

the new RL is everywhere here, i see quite a few daily now, its surprising too since i live in the area where both the acura dealerships are like 30 miles away and there are bmw, mercedes, lexus dealerships very close

RedRSXGrrl

I saw my first red RL this morning on 237. It was SWEEEEEEET!

phile

I saw a blue one today, with the license from the dealer still on it. But whether it was a test drive or a new owner, it was good looking. The paint looks richer than typical Honda, and the LED lights up really nice.

unfortunately I was only able to recognize it after it had passed. From a front view, it really doesn't stand out. I couldn't tell what car it was from the rearview mirror.