ttribe

But it's *just* trim, right? No real performance component to it (i.e. F, M, V, AMG, etc.)?

oo7spy

The current Mugen kits offered by Acura are just trim kits I believe. However, the Mugen Legend MAX was a completely overhauled Honda Legend with some sick specs.

Yumcha

Sorry, by trim, I'm also meaning it needs to have a performance hike a la an AMG, M, V, F...etc.

ttribe

Gotcha. I was just looking at the Mugen Civic, which (I think) is just body kit stuff, correct?

Yumcha

I think so.

And this is where I think Honda/Acura REALLY needs to improve. I get it that they want to cater to the GENERAL populace. But, to ones like me (i.e. have an ego problem and like to drive a car like I stole it every so often), I wish they did offer a different trim for cars in their lineup...So, yeah...when I was shopping for an SUV, if the MDX did have a "MAX" or "Type R" version which meant there was more HP, stiffer suspension, etc...yeah, I may have stayed in the Acura/Honda family again.

To me, this is what is sorely lacking the most. Which, speaks about missing a V8, RWD platform, and etc.




That said, I still stick to my original sentiments from the beginning of this thread, I don't think Honda cars are terrible. I think they still have some nice ones in the fleet (i.e. Civic Si, Fit, TSX)...BUT, for the segment I'm looking at if I'm shopping, it does not have anything I want currently.

But, if I had a kid, I'd seriously consider the Fit as a valid car for him/her for sure. I think it is equal parts fun, decent-looking, and practical.

ttribe

Right there with you on all counts. I don't think Honda's are crap, by any stretch, but they've become complacent and the competition is outshining them. That's hard to ignore, especially as someone who has an unhealthy relationship with automobiles in the first place.

HeartTLs

iTrader: (5)

You'll get it one day Phee, or maybe you won't and that's fine by me too.

Yumcha

Well, hang on...see, this is where I think the main pro-Honda versus critics of Honda are...

For the upper arm of the car market...where you have the higher end trims offered (i.e. S-Line, AMG, M, F, etc.), Honda has no equivalent. Valid.

But, is it truly fair to say that they are "complacent" and the competition is outshining them overall? That's hard to say, IMO. Because, firstly, taking a TL and going against an M3 or RS4...yeah, you can't compare. Honda has no equivalent.



But, take a TL and go against say a 335i. Mercedes C350...definitely, we can have a debate. And can we say the competition has left Honda? I still think Acura interiors are top notch. Being in an Infiniti or other luxury cars have not changed my mind.

Or, even further down the market chain: Honda Civic versus Nissan Sentra or Ford Focus or Kia Forte...

See, now, while other competitors offer different amenities, I don't quite see where Honda is getting their @$$es handed to them per se.

So, this is the question I have when I created the thread: For the cars available right now with Honda/Acura? Are they really that worthy of the criticism? Or is it that most of you are, like me, frustrated that they don't have TRIMS that can go with the AMGs, Ms, Fs, and etc.?

Because, if it is the latter, Honda is not so bad and is not showing they can't compete. It's just that they are unwilling to compete in that market. But, the rest of the line-up...decent? Still good cars?

I wonder if I've even confused myself.

ttribe

Oh good grief.

I don't think you have to go even to the TL vs. 3-Series vs. A4, etc. level. Just look at Honda's main car lineup. At this point, I subscribe to Motor Trend, Car & Driver, and Road & Track. I can't recall reading a comparison in the last 2 years that involved any Honda product where said product didn't come in at the middle of the pack, at best. The lone exception to that statement is the Fit. It's still pretty universally considered best in class. I can't think of one other Honda product that would get a similar rating (of sorts).

ETA: I realize I am a sample size of 1, and that all I'm offering is anecdotal evidence, but I believe these comparisons and industry pundits' analyses are worth some consideration in the debate.

oo7spy

What I have gathered from this thread is that most of us expect A LOT out of Honda. We expect them to be two to three steps above the competition and a clear cut choice when it comes to cars in the same price range. However, Honda has not innovated as of late, and the competition has caught up. They are now producing cars in the same price range that aren't necessarily a clear choice to not go with. The competition is a good one IMHO. Does that mean that Honda isn't worth a darn? No, but it isn't meeting the expectations we have of being a step ahead.

What I find interesting is Nissan's seeming performance approach to cars. They are putting out cars with stiff suspensions and decent hp almost across their fleet classes. Meanwhile Toyota is putting out bland and boring cars every other day. I just looked up the numbers for the American car market through Nov, 2011 and comparable numbers from 2010. Toyota is 4th in market share behind the big three with Honda and Nissan close behind. What is interesting, it that the year over year sales numbers for Toyota are almost all red, Honda's are half red/half green, and Nissan's are almost all green meaning they are increasing their customer base and their market share. I wonder when Honda will realize that Toyota isn't the one to be aspiring to just because it has the most sales.

http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/pag...autosales.html I could not find world wide sales numbers.

CarbonGray Earl

Mugen is WAY overpriced.

I honestly wish they'd quit messing around and give us this....sure it'll likely be way overpriced, but the kids by me are getting brand-new Lancer Evos and Impreza STIs. You know some will spring for this.

http://youtu.be/AYPZKExY93w

Costco

In Honda's defense, despite its deceptive size, the TL SH-AWD handily outperformed a 335i, S4 and Evo X in different comparisons. The S4 and Evo X have similar electronically controlled torque vectoring rear differentials, and both cars came out with their respective rear diff technologies after Acura did with the 4G.

Despite being outgunned in power (S4) and inherent sportiness/handling prowess (Evo X) the bloated pig we all hate edged out its closest competition on the track.

ttribe

And then everyone had to look at it again...sorry, couldn't let it go.

Yumcha

Exactly...and even then, we're talking about subjectivity here on the looks. While it is not terribly photogenic, I think the TL is not an Aztek either. But, that's my opinion. Meanwhile, I see TLs regularly in my commute daily. It seems to sell decently.

So, again...when Honda has CHOSEN to compete, where have they dropped the ball and be "boring" and "vanilla"...? Here's an example of them taking on what Germany has to offer...

And to ttribe's case about the Fit, taking on what the market has thrown back and still leading. So, again...where is Honda failing?







So, to me, I think if anything, it is Honda's failure to compete in all segments of the market which is ticking everyone off. But, when Honda chooses to go up against the market, they aren't exactly failboating.

Is the above statement incorrect...?

ttribe

AFAIK, the 4G isn't selling nearly as well as the 3G.

But that's in ONE feature that was being tested. Line those three cars up and evaluate them in their entirety and there's no comparison. TL's dead last.

But that's ONE model Yummy. They make many more models and things aren't coming up roses for them in those areas. Are you suggesting that they aren't *trying* in other segments? They're just throwing a model into the segment to grab a bit of market share and then focusing REALLY hard on the Fit? I realize that's not what you're really suggesting, but it is what it sound like and, frankly, such an idea does more for the argument in favor of Honda being "complacent" than not.

Yumcha

Well, hang on ttribe...Which ones are losing? Like, from what I recall, the MDX is still well received? The Civic and Honda, while slipping from their old grip at #1 in their segments are still reviewing decently?

And the CR-V is still leading the segment in sales, no?


The only one I think has been a poor experiment may be the ZDX...?

CarbonGray Earl

In the TL's case, making your historically most successful model look so polarizing was a huge misstep. A car in that segment has to look good.

Its not that Honda is 'failing' (that's a huge standard to pass), but it might be that the beak decision is indicative of the Acura brass misunderstanding and failing to truly assess what the market wants or what the population at large will say. IMO, there was likely alot of group think going on in the upper echelons of Acura management and design.

What the beak truly represents is the culmination of many events and missteps by Acura.

Costco

A lot of people I know commented how much they hated the 08-11 TL. However the 2012 brings about a lot of subtle improvements that should have been there in the first place. Comments I hear about the '12 are "it no longer looks like a spaceship, quite nice actually", "eh. it's okay now" to "its similar but looks different now. not bad"

I feel the same way. The fact that Acura still offers their slick 6MT in one of their upper echelon products gives me hope.

On the business side which is probably what truly matters to Honda now, they are taking a conservative approach and they are selling either segment leaders or highly competitive cars as far as sales go. Unfortunately I keep seeing this argument brought up "yeah, but Honda's X sells better than Company B's Y". It's true, they're not doing bad at all. But what relevance does this have with me?

Slap Chery badges on Honda's entire line up and I guarantee you their sales will tank. I understand this isn't a testable and thus not really a valid argument but it's better than the sales numbers one The Honda badge carries their lineup well and at the same time the Acura badge can somewhat hinder them. The RL is a great car for what it is but Acura failed miserably somewhere along the line with marketing or something. They could not hope to put out something that would compete with the likes of AMG, M, RS, etc. if the RL failed.... putting myself in Honda's shoes here.

ttribe

I guess we are defining the concept of *losing ground* differently. In the past two years, I believe I've read comparisons of: 1) minivans (Odyssey used to be class leader, now middle of the pack); 2) mid-size SUVs (Pilot used to be at, or near, the top; now it's at, or near the bottom); 3) mid-size sedans (Accord has dropped way off); 4) small SUV's (CR-V falling behind Escape and Rav-4); 5) entry-level lux (can't even remember if the TL or TSX were included); mid-level lux (RL not on anyone's radar anymore).

You're right, the MDX is still considered very good and I've said several times in the past that it's the one model Acura makes that is still reasonably strong, but can you really argue that the X5 (for example) isn't garnering far more praise (and deservedly so)? Does the RDX really rate on the market's radar at all?

ttribe

Posted this elsewhere, but I think it is relevant here as well: http://blogs.motortrend.com/trading-...nda-18381.html

Ken1997TL

I wish I could buy the Mugen supercharger for the CR-Z...

oo7spy

In post 170 I went back and edited my post to add a thought I had and gave a link to 2010 auto sales in the US. I don't really care how Motor Trend thinks a car compares to other cars, what matters is the consumer vote. On the list of top 20 models sold in 2010 in the USA, the Accord is the top selling sedan, The CR-V is the top selling CUV, the Civic is the second selling compact/coupe behind the Altima, & the Pilot is the second selling SUV behind the Equinox. Honda has 4 cars that sell first or second in their class and are also in the top 20 of all models sold in the US. Toyota and Hyundai each have two in the top 20, Nissan and VW have one, and the big three make up the other ten. Ford is the only one who has more than Honda. So, which car is more popular, the one that Motor Trend says you should buy or the one people buy?

ttribe

I'm not trying to be confrontational or obstinate, but I think you are talking about two different measures. One's forward looking (by design) and the other is backward looking. I'd submit automobile journalism is: 1) designed specifically to inform the consumer about upcoming models; and 2) functions as a potential (albeit imperfect) leading indicator.

oo7spy

I wasn't trying to be a dick either. I work for a company that has to find customer design interest and gauge the amount of sales that we think we can make off of a product if we build it for them. I hear forecasts all the time of crazy numbers of product that customers "want" to buy if we build it for them, but not even half come to fruition. I'll take a past sales record as a gauge of success over a projected forecast any day. We can speculate all day, but the numbers don't lie.

ttribe

Don't get me wrong, I'm an accountant, I have all kinds of love for past performance in terms of projecting the future.

GoldenShoes

with all due respect ttribe, I've had a subscription to Motor Trend and Car and Driver for the last 11 years, and unless it has "kidney grills" they really don't ever rank too high.

don't get me wrong, Bimmers are nice, but I'd like to see a little more subjectivity from those 2 magazines than what they've been showing the past few years.

this isn't a personal attack on you either, but seeing that you own a BMW makes it almost seem that unless the car is a BMW, then all other cars are inferior in terms of technology, powertrains, amenities, and styling.

remember this is an Acura forum. sure, a lot of people may not like what Honda is doing based on other automakers, but for the most part, as oo7spy put it with his sales #'s, really isn't doing that bad and isnt "failing" as a company.

I apologize if that came off rude, but many BMW owners irk me with their so-called "better-than-me" attitude.

KillerG

this should be less about what other automakers are doing, and more about how honda is failing themselves by not living up to their standards.

golden makes a good point^

also, car talk has a lot of oldies-are-goldies here that are now bmw owners/mazda ownders/vw owners now, etc, so be prepared for that regardless

ttribe

[sigh] Repeating myself: https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...postcount=3122

I'm still a Honda owner (my wife's Pilot). We've had Hondas and Acuras for the past 18 years. I had my 3G TL for 5 years. The BMW is my first one and I've only owned it since June. Let's not get carried away with silly blanket statements and stereotypes.

GoldenShoes

so you didn't even look at the part where I said this wasn't a personal attack on you, or how that BMW owners "in general" portray that attitude?

what about the Motor Trend and Car&Driver comment, you don't see any favoritism in either of those EVER?

I said my opinion, you jumped to a conclusion, disregarded my original comment regarding the magazines, and are now being sarcastic and saying your still a Honda owner,even after bashing on them throughout this whole thread?

a simple Yes/No answer regarding the magazines would've been fine, I didn't need to read about your past Honda ownership.

TRIUMPHT

iTrader: (1)

But there is nothing else to do but compare that is the whole argument without that there is no argument.

I don't think acura/honda is doing anything wrong. Every gripe i have is mainly comparing to other vehicle's as the rest of the bunch. I own a 4th Gen TL knew i was gonna get one when i had my 3RD Gen TL.

Anytime you compare a car there are always gonna be pro's and con's, a car that is better a car that is worst. But for the love of god i don't understand how people on an acura site are bashing Honda/Acura. You don't like what they did don't buy one.

You pull up with an M5/M6 somebody pulls up with a lambo/Ferrari then somebody pulls up next to them in a Bugatti. Like be foreal it's the way of the world.

i am a big dude i hated my 3rd gen TL because i always felt cramped when i had passengers. Everybody i know said that car was to small for me. I love the room i have in the 4TH GEN TL.

A good portion of the people on these sites that complain don't & won't purchase the car they are hoping companies make if they did put it out.

ttribe

Good grief...yes, I read your whole comment. But, you began and ended with the BMW owners are X meme. Despite your disclaimers, it sure appears you have a bias.

I've heard this accusation many times. I'm sorry that I don't agree with it.

What "conclusion" did I jump to? And no, I haven't been "bashing" Honda throughout this "entire thread." As a matter of fact, I believe I've said Honda makes good cars; I believe I mentioned that I really like the MDX. I'm not bashing; I'm disappointed. They set a high standard for me when I bought my first Acura (an Integra). They met and exceeded those standards for the next 18 years. I see a trend and I'm pretty sure it's okay for me to comment on it.

I thought context would help us communicate. Apparently not.

GoldenShoes

If this isn't how you are, then I apologize. every person I have PERSONALLY met that owns a BMW acts like this.
I have ZERO bias about cars, I enjoy them ALL. I've owned 4 Honda's and happen to enjoy them quite well.

you can comment on anything you'd like, I believe it's called freedom of speech.

lastly, I have no problem communicating with you, but it took you 3 posts to actually answer the question I put in front of you.

this will be my last reply towards you, I'd rather not derail this thread with back and forth bs.

ttribe

Actually, it was two replies, but who's counting?

You're right, I should have given a better reply in the first place.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

ttribe, just stop being a pompous, pretentious asshole.
kthxbye

Yumcha

Well, on the BMW tangent, I still stand by my belief that if abominations like the X6 were badged as a Honda or Toyota, it'd be universally ridiculed as the next Aztek.

Yumcha

And honestly, I think it is natural for a person to try to "justify" why a $$$$$ item is nice. So, again, using the X6 as an example, it is one of the most expensive cross-overs, period. So, at that pricepoint, and given what BMW means qualitatively to most people, it is natural for them to try to "upgrade" the car in their minds...

"Oh, well! It's a BMW...it has to be nice."

Seriously, if we slap any "lesser" car brand logo on an X6, I would think tomatoes would be flying regularly at it on a daily commute to work.


And not hating the X6 per se...just using the most obtuse BMW I can think of as an example.

ttribe

GoldenShoes

I completely agree with you Yummy. the X6, to me, is a hideous looking vehicle and without the "kidneys" would definitely not be perceived as nice by quite a few members of society.

most people think the 4G is hideous with the infamous "beak", and to give Honda credit, the 2012 looks substantially nicer and more refined. it's what they should have done in the first place. they realized this problem, and then remedied it. I mean, look at how many times you see the commercial with the 2012 being displayed as a "Aztek-ish" person that then turns into a svelte, and suave looking person. for this, I give Honda props for admitting their design mistake.

if the 2012 was what originally Acura came out with in 09, then I highly doubt many people, on this forum and journalists alike, would have criticized the styling so much. to me, it looks like a near-perfect style update of the 3G.

CarbonGray Earl

If you think that's bad, stick the 4g TLs power plenum on it. That would make it the center of evil in all the universe.

pttl

Have you read this thread? Its been clearly stated numerous times.