Moog-Type-S

Catching up?!?!?!
The competition has PASSED Honda.

As far as 100k mile....others are confident enough to offer a warranty that goes this distance, unlike Honda which stops at 60k.


Again...explain how the CRV is better.
...because it drives better in the city than an Accord?

We are not following what you are trying to say.

Legend2TL

Yeah that's a old feature but there are few new features in that segment.

The only thing which is minor is the single pull lever for folding the seats flat. I would agree it's minor and some other may already have it.

In terms of it I also mean the ownership experience and how easy the vehicle is to use. That's something I read and hear in review and people I know with CRV's.

Legend2TL

http://www.insideline.com/honda/cr-v...and-video.html

Watch the video, the girl at Inside Line says it better than me.

I would agree with her it's become fashionable to bash Honda but they still have a great product but she also points out that the new generation little SUV's are coming out and they may surpass the CRV.

Warranty mean less to me than actual results, I've seen many Honda's make it to 200K miles and a few to 300K. Our Pilot is at 195K and still has the original CV joint boots and exhaust. I've seen Honda motor front main seals that are not even weeping any oil at 240K, so the 60K warranties have never concerned me in the least. My only Honda/Acura problem these days is instrumentation lights with eggshell filaments.

Honda's are just simple and easy, not complicated so watch the video that girl sums it up well.

Moog-Type-S

First of all I will come out and say she is wrong.
Again...the competition has already passed Honda....this is clear and non debatable. The Competition offers so much more.

As far as actual results...they vary. Warranty is always better than no warranty.

Talk to me about my Oddy. Probably one of the most unreliable vehicles I have purchased in quite some time. Recalls and TSB's a plenty....been in the shop many, many...too many times for a "Honda".

I owned a civic that was bullet proof...but this was 10 years ago.
Same for my Honda motorcycle.

...but it's over the past +5 years that Honda has been in "decline".

Legend2TL

Yeah, this is a area that pains me. Besides the recent bold styling at both Acura and Honda, I expect some more innovation in powertrain. Honda has never been much about electronics and I don't expect them to have a Microsoft Sync function anytime.

But the engines is a area Honda has only made small evolutionary steps with the I4 and V6. I also was expecting them to introduce a decent hybrid or diesel to the US maret as well.

Moog-Type-S

...btw I watched the vid. If I was Honda, I would not be happy with Inside the Line.

She basically said the CRV is adequate, not great, not bad. Not a leader.
It's not the best, but not the worst.

You see, it used to be years ago that Honda was the best, a class leader.
...and for a brand new vehicle....one of the "bread and butter" vehicles for Honda to come out and be adequate, decent, mid-pack.......well, that used to be reserved for the domestics.

Moog-Type-S

Honda needs to team up with somebody like Microsoft like Ford Sync & Kia UVO.

They knew they could not do it well, but buyers want these options...so they went to someone who could supply them with the tech.

Honda should do the same.

Legend2TL

I thought she was sincere and honest and besides she has driven all those vehicles as well. Most of Inside editors are pretty honest I think.

Again alot of what makes a vehicle special is beyond the spec sheet, if that's all you rad then a 4G TL SH-AWD should be outselling the 3 series. You know that and the spec/feature sheet only tells so much.

You've had bad experience so I'd be annoyed too and I know 5-6 2G TL owners who also had 5AT problems.

But recently, nothing but typical Honda reliability for everyone I know with one. About the only problem child I know is a neighbor with a 1G MDX that had literally the entire A/C (compressor, expansion valves, condensor, ...) go out. This is out of a couple dozen Honda/Acura's of recent decade so those folks and I are pretty impressed. May be boring vehicles but they are Energizer bunnies as well.

Legend2TL

I just read something with all sorts of problems with Sync and Ford dealers having lots of cockpit errors dealing with customers.

I love tech but also love simple ease of use, there's a fine line integrated technology in vehicles. BMW and iDrive is a great example of that.

ttribe

I'm curious - have you ever used iDrive? Many of the criticisms I hear from people about iDrive seems to be from people who've never really tried to live with it.

phee

iTrader: (5)

The other mfg make a mistake here and there. Honda continually drops the ball

GoldenShoes

ok, so Honda may be losing slightly in terms of tech advancements, features, and # of gears in auto trannys.

but this is a question I'd like to ask. especially to the owners of German vehicles. so the Honda/Acura may not have as fancy as electronics that your vehicles possess, but in a few years when your vehicles are out of warranty and the "gremlins" start to appear in your iDrive and other tech-related items. what happens then?

case in point, my friends 2005.5 jetta opens the sunroof when the radio is turned up,and the window controls don't work on the drivers door.

ok, so Honda straight fucked up with their automatics years ago, but what about the notorious electrical problems associated with German cars?

some people don't have the luxury to buy new vehicles every 2-4 years, and this is where I believe Honda still is one of the top mfgs out there. their overall reliability and peace of mind over the long-term is what has made them who they are.

totally innovative tech and never-before-seen features might be awesome to compete with the Jones', but what good are they if they can't work right all the time?

I'd personally not like to be making tons of trips to a dealer to keep dealing with recalls and other nuances.

let me get in my car and drive with the least amount of hassles, that's what Honda has done for me.

KillerG

Yeah, thats one thing, discussed this for a while in another thread, but even the halo car withstanding, what does the enthusiast have to look forward to in the Honda lineup?

The civic Si and the TL-Shawd at best. I sat in the new 2012 Civic Si recently and I was beyond underwhelmed, and while I like the TL-Shawd, and its undeniably a solid performer, it usually isn't my first correlation with "sports car"

After the death of the S2000...

Toyota might be the go to brand for elderly citizens across the country, but the FT-86 says ALOT about the company

Even outside of all that, in the regular segment, where can you really look and say "Honda takes the cake in that segment" ? You can still easily say that "Honda is a solid choice here" but it seems like everyone is stepping up there game and Honda is just stagnating.

KillerG

Not to mention, we have Absolutely nothing exciting to look forward to in the future.

New NSX? bullshit rumor, and if it ever comes to fruition, itll probably be a shitty cr-z style hybrid

Unless you guys are dieing to see more EVs, small city concepts, new Assimo robots, and EV versions of your not so favorite honda staple cars, im not really excited anymore, and every new announcement doesnt help.

oo7spy

So it seems like a lot of you have the anti-Honda front up, but don't give and evidence of your claims. Moog, what competitors are out doing the CRV and why? Ttribe, what better features are out there? Phee, what has Honda continuously dropped the ball on? At least KillerG can admit that Toyota isn't doing the greatest things either but has an FT 86. However, he then goes on to say that Hondas future is bullshit and will never happen. Where do you get the information to make this bold claim? If you want to convince me, my ears are open, but you are just throwing baseless accusations out there. If they aren't baseless, you forgot to include them in your arguement.

I am going to say that Golden Shoes has given the best argument here. Hondas aren't expensive to buy or maintain. If you are one to care about cash flow as far as investments and necessary expenditures, few cars are a better choice than a Honda.

Yumcha

I dunno, I wonder if most people who are critical here are thinking Honda takes a BMW/Audi approach to designing cars.

But, then again, is that the segment Honda wants and if they do, is it something they are equipped to do?

oo7spy

I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

KillerG

Im not saying that their future wont happen, but as an enthusiast, i have absolutely NOTHING to look forward to coming out from Honda that i currently know of, and the most recent announcements/rumors have not been promising.

Like i was saying, if you are excited about hybrid technology and the future of EVs, then Honda might be headed somewhere interesting for you, but for me personally that's not the case.

I think one reason there is alot of Honda hate on these boards, and this applies to me as well, is that the people who are hating on Honda are the people that loved Honda the most. There is the sort of feeling that Honda is turning its back on the faithful as silly as that sounds. I love my Honda and I have really enjoyed Honda's in the past, but as i look forward I dont really see myself being interested in where they are going.

cp3117

Well im starting my 7th year of ownership with my very first german car and if I ever get an electrical issue with it I'll let you know. (I did have a rear bulb burn out that cost me $1.99 a few years ago if that counts).

I come from a family that has owned a lot of Toyota's, Honda's, Nissan's etc. Our family even owned a Toyota dealership a long time ago and I can tell you I dont buy all that reliability BS we hear all the time.

I currently drive a 2008 Odyssey at work sometimes and its anything but reliable. New rear brakes, torque convertor replaced, A/C compressor replaced and all before 15000 Km or 9000 miles. It's nearing 60000 Km now and the tranny is showing signs of problems again and it just came out of the shop this week with a new power steering pump. Sorry but you'll have a hard time convincing me of this so called Honda reliability and peace of mind. I'll gladly trade the Odyssey for your friends Jetta if thats the only issues he is having.

Here is an interesting article (maybe we just get the crap ones here in Canada)

http://www.wheels.ca/article/800577

I had a Civic in the early 90's and had to replace the head gasket twice. The second time I went aftermarket and had no issues. Honda said it wasnt their fault but several years later a friend who was a Honda mechanic said they had a TSB out stating they had a revised head gasket and torque ratings on the head bolts because of the issues.

They recently had a class action suit against them because of rear brake issues (TSX) but still deny any fault even though they where found guilty and where forced to pay out to customers.

My 2006 Jetta 2.0T has a know problem with the cam follower (early model FSI engines) which can cause major problems. Mine hasent failed but VW Canada notified me a few months ago my warranty has been extended to 10 years and 160,000 KM for that issue in case it does though.........Sorry, but i love a brand that stands behind its product.

fuzzy02CLS

iTrader: (2)

I have no brand loyalty in any aspect of what I buy.
I will say it's a fact Honda is not the same as it used to be & their cars are just not built the same as they used to be.

oo7spy

KillerG, my question now becomes, and this is for everyone: what cars in the past from Honda have fulfilled your excitement need?







BTW, hybrid technology is exciting to me. Is 500 hp exciting too? Yes.

neuronbob

Quoted for truth.

I still own two Hondas. In fact, I just came back in a few minutes ago from taking my S2000 for a spin. Now THAT is a Honda. I am still a Honda fan. But the recent debates in Automotive News have more to do with us old fogeys and a few newer folken who remember the Honda/Acura of the 80's, 90's and early 00's and want that mojo back.

The fact is, the Honda of the late 00's and early teens simply wants to survive long enough to put out great (read: ENTHUSIAST) products again. That means we have to put up with the utilitarian crap they are producing now because that is what pays the bills. For the record, my wife gives exactly two $hits that her Pilot has VTM-4 part time 4WD to keep her on the road if the front wheels slip, or that she has only five gears, and she is similar to most typical Honda consumer nowadays. All she cares about is that it works and won't fall apart at 50k miles.

Ken1997TL

Some of Honda's models still have the core values that made Honda what it is.

Civic Si, the Fit and surprisingly the CR-Z.

Most of us here have owned Acuras. The main issue for many is that Acura doesn't provide something fun in the demographic that this forum caters to. They USED to offer the CL with a manual, the Integra and the NSX etc. But without any sort of sports/sporty car to aspire to, the brand is only a premium Honda passenger lineup.

When someone becomes more successful and wants to 'move up' from a TSX or TL, there isnt ANYTHING to chose from. It's almost like Acura is the 'middle' brand and Honda has a third actual sport/luxury brand that they're keeping secret...

leedogg

If I was honda, I would try to integrate with iphone's siri.

GoldenShoes

thank you oo7SPY for seeing what I was trying to get across.

to further explain my thinking, I once owned a 97 civic cx hatch.
it was fully gutted, had a 6pt cage, 2 s2k seats, a semi-built LS-VTEC, a catless exhaust, and was riding on TEIN RA's.

this was one of my favorite vehicles just for the simplicity of it. the only electronics in it were a Panasonic CD player and 2 Kenwood speakers.

I enjoy driving, and hearing the mechanical sounds from the vehicle. sure it was extremely raspy, I had to climb over the cage to get in, and the susp. was stiff as hell. but, it was invigorating to drive and kept a smile on my face.

don't get me wrong, I love my TL to death but some days I yearn for the pure pleasure of driving. there's too much do-dads and tech in these cars today to really enjoy the driving.

lastly, and completely OT. when Ferrari said they would be getting rid of their traditional gated 6spd, my heart broke. I've always had an aspiration to one day own one, and hearing the snick-snick of the shifter going through the gates would be pure ecstasy to me. don't get me wrong, I love the 458 Italia but damn man I wanna use my left foot and not have a computer control it!

pttl

Not many argue that Hondas are not that. BUT honda is now an appliance maker. Enthusiast cars that offer an enjoyable driving experience are long gone from honda. FWD sedans and a couple FWD coupes are not my idea of enjoyable or fun.

Honda = Reliable. Yes for the most part. Fun?...not so much.

btw.... s2k was an enthusiast car.

Yumcha

I miss the S2K. Yet another car Honda should revive...Prelude too.

oo7spy

My point in asking what in the past from Honda excited you was to see where Honda has gone awry. It doesn't seem to me that they have really changed all that much. Is the lack of an S2000 and a Prelude the only thing that has changed?

neuronbob

^^^^^^
It used to be that even the most plebeian Hondas were fun to drive and had sharper handling than Toyotas and in fact, this was a major differentiation between Honda and Toyota. The only Honda I can think of in that category right now is the Fit. The Fit is an example of what originally brought me to Honda in my college years eons ago. I owned three Civics, all of them manuals, and those little cars were just SO fun to thrash about in. I'd rev as high as possible in my little blue 1991 base Civic--EF model for you Civic geeks--with a D15B1 engine as often as I could (this engine did not utilize VTEC....that didn't come to the Civic until the 1992 MY). So what if it had only 70 hp? Not to mention, I drove that puppy cross-country so many times....man I miss that little car! It still looks good 20 years after I bought one......

Anyway, I'm off point, and rinse/lather repeat for Acura and its fugly design direction. I owned a 2G TL and a 3G TL and then the wheels fell off with the 4G TL (though I keep going back and forth on the redesign). Hopefully Acura will allow better designs for the next TL and RL and I'll come back to the fold.

oo7spy

I appreciate the honest testimonial. However, IMHO the Civic is the same as it always has been. It's even more of what you are talking about with the Si. I've driven an Si and a Carolla S, and there is no question in my mind which is a better car.

pttl

Again a medium to low HP, FWD coupe is not my idea of a good driving experience. The fact that it is even being mentioned with a CorollaS is point proven.

pttl

Well look at it this way...that's 2 more cars than what Honda has now.

neuronbob

@ oo7spy: No, the Civic is bigger and sloppier handling than before, with the exception of the Si. JMHO. The Fit is closer to the size of a Civic from 20 years ago**. I drove a Fit not that long ago and that little guy is the shiz. It definitely (in MT form) took me back to 20 years ago. Add some lowering springs and it'd be damned near perfect-handling for a little FWD car.

I'm still thinking loosely about adding a fuel-sipper to the fleet and the Fit is at the top of the list.

**
1991 Civic 4-spd hatch (my car): 157.1 inches long with 43.3 inches front legroom, mileage 28/33
2012 Civic sedan (no hatch available): 177.3 inches long with 42 inches front legroom, mileage 28/39
2012 Fit hatch: 161.6 inches long with 41.3 front legroom, mileage 27/33

Legend2TL

Yes, I've used 1G and 2G iDrive before . I recently helped a friend replaced the HID in his 2003 530 and I was playing around with the iDrive.

I personally like iDrive but some aspects of the controls were better suited for individual switches and indicators. I.E. IIRC the 1G iDrive you could not manually tune the frequency for the radio without iDrive.

gatrhumpy

iTrader: (1)

Honda will always be my first choice when it comes to cars. I will look at them first to see what's available and if current offerings are what I'm looking for in a new or slightly used car. I guess it stems from buying a new 2003 Honda Civic and new 2004 Honda Accord brand new when they came out. I guess I just have an affinity to them.

Aman

I think Honda's winning combination was their enjoyable drive for the segment, and their reputation for reliability and innovation. They produced cars that a mom could appreciate on her commute home, while her teenage son waits anxiously so he can take the car out and have some fun.

Now, the ergonomics part is starting to slip away, and the dynamically the majority of the cars produced cater more and more to the mom, and less to the son.

phee

iTrader: (5)

i hate this argument. its like saying "yea your motorcycle has a motor but my bicycle will last longer"

what about hondas failed transmissions, their continual rotor warping, or how about cheap plastics falling apart, interior rattles, pinging engines from the factory (tl-s) specifically, ball joints failing prematurely...

every car has "gremlins" honda owners just make excuses for theirs.

phee

iTrader: (5)

maybe not the current hondas, but have you ever driven an integra type-r

HeartTLs

iTrader: (5)

Have you driven a MT 4G TL on curvy roads? Now that is fun! I've driven 90's model civics and all that came to mind was, wow is this interior terrible, damn is this car slow and I'm glad this POS isn't mine so I beat the piss out of it. The handling was alright, can't compete with SH-AWD.

Like gatr, I also have an affinity to Honda and before purchasing a vehicle I use their products at least as a point of reference. Because they package their cars very well. Of course I want more power, bigger brakes, more technology, etc but I don't have 60k+ to spend, I have under 40 and Honda/Acura makes one hell of a vehicle at that price point. Most guys complaining theres no current model NSX, be real you most likely wouldn't be able to afford it even if there was one available; else everyone here would have a gtr or a 911.

I'm glad the 4G exterior wasen't designed for cliché yuppies or baby boomers; if it's not bland and boring it's not to their liking.

CarbonGray Earl

I had a 91 Civic 4 door, and I absolutely loved that car. Consider that the Civic was the only game in town back then when it came to Japanese reliability, fit, finish, ergonomics, and driving dynamics. That led me to buy an Integra after that, which was the car I miss the most.

If they made a Fit SI, I'd probably trade my 2005 TSX in for it tomorrow. 6 speed please.