The Honda/Acura Versus The World Debate
11-21-2011, 10:19 AM
#81
Have you driven a MT 4G TL on curvy roads? Now that is fun! I've driven 90's model civics and all that came to mind was, wow is this interior terrible, damn is this car slow and I'm glad this POS isn't mine so I beat the piss out of it. The handling was alright, can't compete with SH-AWD.
Like gatr, I also have an affinity to Honda and before purchasing a vehicle I use their products at least as a point of reference. Because they package their cars very well. Of course I want more power, bigger brakes, more technology, etc but I don't have 60k+ to spend, I have under 40 and Honda/Acura makes one hell of a vehicle at that price point. Most guys complaining theres no current model NSX, be real you most likely wouldn't be able to afford it even if there was one available; else everyone here would have a gtr or a 911.
I'm glad the 4G exterior wasen't designed for cliché yuppies or baby boomers; if it's not bland and boring it's not to their liking.
Like gatr, I also have an affinity to Honda and before purchasing a vehicle I use their products at least as a point of reference. Because they package their cars very well. Of course I want more power, bigger brakes, more technology, etc but I don't have 60k+ to spend, I have under 40 and Honda/Acura makes one hell of a vehicle at that price point. Most guys complaining theres no current model NSX, be real you most likely wouldn't be able to afford it even if there was one available; else everyone here would have a gtr or a 911.
I'm glad the 4G exterior wasen't designed for cliché yuppies or baby boomers; if it's not bland and boring it's not to their liking.
Pray tell, who was the 4g TL designed for? Their marketing and sponsorships of golf tournaments, wine tastings, jazz music festivals etc, sure do cater to that set you are referring to. Their own advertising/commericials/marketing really do aim at those yuppies and baby boomers....just saying...
Last edited by CarbonGray Earl; 11-21-2011 at 10:23 AM.
11-21-2011, 11:00 AM
#82
I think most of the "hate" on the forum is for a couple of reasons:
1) Most people in Car Talk and Automotive News are former Honda/Acura owners who have been lured to other brands to meet their needs;
2) We are on an Acura forum, so of course Honda/Acura's products would be under the microscope more on here;
3) A combination of the above two. I was an Acura cheerleader all the way from late 90's till early 2000's. Only Acura's in our garage. After the glass trannies of the CL/TL (and others), I lost faith. Then, after that, I lost interest b/c they got boring. I think that happened for a lot of people here. And most of them wanted to be Acura fans. I mean, over half a decade after selling my last Acura, I'm still here... as are others. Many of us want Acura to reclaim their glory days, but they seem to be going vanilla instead... and it frustrates a lot of us who where huge fans... and it comes across as hating by some when they post in topics.
1) Most people in Car Talk and Automotive News are former Honda/Acura owners who have been lured to other brands to meet their needs;
2) We are on an Acura forum, so of course Honda/Acura's products would be under the microscope more on here;
3) A combination of the above two. I was an Acura cheerleader all the way from late 90's till early 2000's. Only Acura's in our garage. After the glass trannies of the CL/TL (and others), I lost faith. Then, after that, I lost interest b/c they got boring. I think that happened for a lot of people here. And most of them wanted to be Acura fans. I mean, over half a decade after selling my last Acura, I'm still here... as are others. Many of us want Acura to reclaim their glory days, but they seem to be going vanilla instead... and it frustrates a lot of us who where huge fans... and it comes across as hating by some when they post in topics.
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11-21-2011, 11:13 AM
#83
^^Agreed.
To paraphrase Ronnie Reagan...'We didn't leave Acura, Acura left us.'
To paraphrase Ronnie Reagan...'We didn't leave Acura, Acura left us.'
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ttribe (11-21-2011)
11-21-2011, 11:17 AM
#84
Did you just compare a 90s era civic to a modern TL?
Pray tell, who was the 4g TL designed for? Their marketing and sponsorships of golf tournaments, wine tastings, jazz music festivals etc, sure do cater to that set you are referring to. Their own advertising/commericials/marketing really do aim at those yuppies and baby boomers....just saying...
Pray tell, who was the 4g TL designed for? Their marketing and sponsorships of golf tournaments, wine tastings, jazz music festivals etc, sure do cater to that set you are referring to. Their own advertising/commericials/marketing really do aim at those yuppies and baby boomers....just saying...
I know it was a total miss with their target audiance but a hit with anyone who doesn't want the same ol box w/ four wheels.
11-21-2011, 11:31 AM
#85
Carbon the impression that this part of the forum gives and this thread highlights is that everyone is a expert mechanical engineer, economist, part time racers/full time enthusiast and only use their vehicles for setting lap times, yet they're buying Hyundai's (more gears, less suspension = amazing), American slush boxes and Mazda's.
I guess "bang for buck", amenities, interior space, luxury, etc never came to play. To which I know Honda/Acura doesn't provide the most in every category but the end product is overall better.
I guess "bang for buck", amenities, interior space, luxury, etc never came to play. To which I know Honda/Acura doesn't provide the most in every category but the end product is overall better.
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VTEC Racer (12-21-2011)
11-21-2011, 11:50 AM
#86
Senior Moderator
pttl, I am not trying to say the Civic is the end all of coupes on today's market. My only point is that it hasn't changed since it grabbed the attention of people in the 90's. You want a quick, light, FWD car, that you can rev up and toss around? Honda has an Si and a Fit. The Carolla comparo was based purely off Bob's reference to Toyota. I guess a tC could be better compared, but I haven't driven one. Is it more nimble or more responsive than an Si? What about the other Japanese competitor, Nissan? The Altima coupe is much larger and heavier and costs much more.
All I am saying is that if you fell in love with Honda because of the Civic, there doesn't seem to me to be a reason why you would think Honda has changed. I think the same goes for the rest of their fleet minus the coupes. If your prior Honda love was a Prelude, S2000, or NSX, then I can understand why you feel Honda has lost their way. Otherwise, I don't understand the reasoning. Honda never was Ferarri and never will be. It never put out the hp that other brands did. Ask yourself what pulled you to Honda previously, and then honestly ask yourself if they still don't have that.
My feeling is that Honda is an intro-enthusiast brand. They make a cheap product that young guys can afford. When you have your first car, it is the fastest, funnest, quickest, best car you have ever owned b/c it is the only car you have ever owned. When we were 16 and throwing around a Civic, it was a blast b/c we knew nothing different. As you grow in your driving experience, knowledge of performance cars, and ability to buy more expensive vehicles, you begin to realize that Honda is a solid, cheap, reliable brand, but not a performance contender, minus the NSX and S2000. Look at Bob's fancy, a 6-speed putting 500+ hp on the rear wheels. Of course a civic will seem boring when you drive a CTS-V everyday. Honda never was that brand and never will be. It seems to me the people who have left the brand have grown out of it instead of the brand growing away from them. But that is my
, and everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Like I mentioned a few times, the S2000 and NSX are the exceptions to this. If those were your Honda anchors, then I do completely understand.
For me, my anchor is their luxury sedan, namely the Legend. It is fast enough, quick enough, VERY reliable, and has a
interior just like the 2G Legend. Nothing has changed there so neither has my enthusiasm.
All I am saying is that if you fell in love with Honda because of the Civic, there doesn't seem to me to be a reason why you would think Honda has changed. I think the same goes for the rest of their fleet minus the coupes. If your prior Honda love was a Prelude, S2000, or NSX, then I can understand why you feel Honda has lost their way. Otherwise, I don't understand the reasoning. Honda never was Ferarri and never will be. It never put out the hp that other brands did. Ask yourself what pulled you to Honda previously, and then honestly ask yourself if they still don't have that.
My feeling is that Honda is an intro-enthusiast brand. They make a cheap product that young guys can afford. When you have your first car, it is the fastest, funnest, quickest, best car you have ever owned b/c it is the only car you have ever owned. When we were 16 and throwing around a Civic, it was a blast b/c we knew nothing different. As you grow in your driving experience, knowledge of performance cars, and ability to buy more expensive vehicles, you begin to realize that Honda is a solid, cheap, reliable brand, but not a performance contender, minus the NSX and S2000. Look at Bob's fancy, a 6-speed putting 500+ hp on the rear wheels. Of course a civic will seem boring when you drive a CTS-V everyday. Honda never was that brand and never will be. It seems to me the people who have left the brand have grown out of it instead of the brand growing away from them. But that is my
, and everyone is entitled to their opinion. Like I mentioned a few times, the S2000 and NSX are the exceptions to this. If those were your Honda anchors, then I do completely understand.
For me, my anchor is their luxury sedan, namely the Legend. It is fast enough, quick enough, VERY reliable, and has a
interior just like the 2G Legend. Nothing has changed there so neither has my enthusiasm.
Last edited by oo7spy; 11-21-2011 at 11:56 AM.
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VTEC Racer (12-21-2011)
11-21-2011, 11:52 AM
#87
Have you driven a MT 4G TL on curvy roads? Now that is fun! I've driven 90's model civics and all that came to mind was, wow is this interior terrible, damn is this car slow and I'm glad this POS isn't mine so I beat the piss out of it. The handling was alright, can't compete with SH-AWD.
Like gatr, I also have an affinity to Honda and before purchasing a vehicle I use their products at least as a point of reference. Because they package their cars very well. Of course I want more power, bigger brakes, more technology, etc but I don't have 60k+ to spend, I have under 40 and Honda/Acura makes one hell of a vehicle at that price point. Most guys complaining theres no current model NSX, be real you most likely wouldn't be able to afford it even if there was one available; else everyone here would have a gtr or a 911.
I'm glad the 4G exterior wasen't designed for cliché yuppies or baby boomers; if it's not bland and boring it's not to their liking.
Like gatr, I also have an affinity to Honda and before purchasing a vehicle I use their products at least as a point of reference. Because they package their cars very well. Of course I want more power, bigger brakes, more technology, etc but I don't have 60k+ to spend, I have under 40 and Honda/Acura makes one hell of a vehicle at that price point. Most guys complaining theres no current model NSX, be real you most likely wouldn't be able to afford it even if there was one available; else everyone here would have a gtr or a 911.
I'm glad the 4G exterior wasen't designed for cliché yuppies or baby boomers; if it's not bland and boring it's not to their liking.
Last edited by phee; 11-21-2011 at 12:01 PM.
11-21-2011, 11:54 AM
#88
In the context of fun to drive. A Lotus Elise won't necessarily break the bank but its as fun, if not more fun to drive than any super car. And if you take into account that most the posts were saying they miss their (very) old civic because they were fun to drive, I'd expect they'd want/expect more from a car today (as adults) other than a high revving engine, a chassis with little body roll and good weight distribution.I know it was a total miss with their target audiance but a hit with anyone who doesn't want the same ol box w/ four wheels.
Carbon the impression that this part of the forum gives and this thread highlights is that everyone is a expert mechanical engineer, economist, part time racers/full time enthusiast and only use their vehicles for setting lap times, yet they're buying Hyundai's (more gears, less suspension = amazing), American slush boxes and Mazda's. I guess "bang for buck", amenities, interior space, luxury, etc never came to play. To which I know Honda/Acura doesn't provide the most in every category but the end product is overall better.
your bang for the buck theory is a wash, why did you spend close to 50k on your acura but not on a genesis sedan that is RWD, gets better milage, makes more power, and has a better warranty and costs significantly less?
Last edited by phee; 11-21-2011 at 12:00 PM.
11-21-2011, 11:58 AM
#89
Senior Moderator
This is a multi-faceted argument, but from what I understand, most that are here at one time owned a Honda or Acura. We bought in at some point.
So the 'hate' is questionable, in that, is it really hate? Or are we just holding Acura/Honda to the standard they themselves established with vehicles we've all previously owned?
I think its the latter. Some will say that we have high expectations...but Honda established that expectation that they can bring something to the market that drives well, not only competes technologically, but leads, and can do so at a reasonable price.
In the very least, we were able to expect that Honda would hit key engine tech and features. Now, they make the argument to themselves that a 6 speed automatic isn't worth pursuing, or that a 10 year old 4 cylinder is 'good enough'.
The old Honda was able to gauge the current state of tech and meet it or innovate it in someway. I just don't see that now.
So the 'hate' is questionable, in that, is it really hate? Or are we just holding Acura/Honda to the standard they themselves established with vehicles we've all previously owned?
I think its the latter. Some will say that we have high expectations...but Honda established that expectation that they can bring something to the market that drives well, not only competes technologically, but leads, and can do so at a reasonable price.
In the very least, we were able to expect that Honda would hit key engine tech and features. Now, they make the argument to themselves that a 6 speed automatic isn't worth pursuing, or that a 10 year old 4 cylinder is 'good enough'.
The old Honda was able to gauge the current state of tech and meet it or innovate it in someway. I just don't see that now.
/thread
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11-21-2011, 12:01 PM
#90
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It is beautiful........now only if they would put a k-series in it then it would be complete.
11-21-2011, 12:05 PM
#91
Then they make an AWD car with a 6MT (what we have been asking for) but make it weigh close to 4000 lbs and put a beak on it.
They kill the S2k and offer no replacement.
The civic interior drops in quality and they kill the fun-to-drive factory by adding a super soft suspension in all models including the Si.
They make the TSX wagon but only offer it in 4 cyl so its a dog..
The RL looks just like the TL to the untrained eye but has a price premium that is hardly justifiable.
3 SUV's!?
11-21-2011, 12:10 PM
#92
Carbon the impression that this part of the forum gives and this thread highlights is that everyone is a expert mechanical engineer, economist, part time racers/full time enthusiast and only use their vehicles for setting lap times, yet they're buying Hyundai's (more gears, less suspension = amazing), American slush boxes and Mazda's.
I can't/won't argue with you about YOUR impression, only that blanket statements are almost always wrong.
Last edited by CarbonGray Earl; 11-21-2011 at 12:16 PM.
11-21-2011, 12:20 PM
#93
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11-21-2011, 12:21 PM
#94
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Carbon the impression that this part of the forum gives and this thread highlights is that everyone is a expert mechanical engineer, economist, part time racers/full time enthusiast and only use their vehicles for setting lap times, yet they're buying Hyundai's (more gears, less suspension = amazing), American slush boxes and Mazda's.
I guess "bang for buck", amenities, interior space, luxury, etc never came to play. To which I know Honda/Acura doesn't provide the most in every category but the end product is overall better.
I guess "bang for buck", amenities, interior space, luxury, etc never came to play. To which I know Honda/Acura doesn't provide the most in every category but the end product is overall better.
11-21-2011, 12:35 PM
#95
I'm also one of the disillusioned Honda/Acura fans. I've owned several makes of cars, but after two Hondas, I was a good candidate to stay with the company's cars for as long as I can drive. I even bought stock in the company (although a fairly minuscule amount).
When I began looking for a new car a few years ago, however, I was surprised at how far away Honda had gone from what was once its company dna, competitive differentiator, whatever you want to call what made me and many other enthusiasts love their cars. So, it's hard not to be critical, as a decade ago, there were at least five Honda/Acuras I would have been happy to buy, but now there aren't any.
From a business perspective, I can understand the desire to move away from enthusiasts and go more mainstream--I believe BMW is more profitable now than any time in its history, for instance, while Mazda is projecting a full year loss--but Honda does not stand out as much as it used to in mainstream vehicles, either, and, most surprisingly, its build quality is showing signs of faltering while other companies have made improvements.
I still have hope. Toyota, after all, moved away from making sporty cars well before Honda but is now co-developing one of the most anticipated enthusiast-oriented cars in decades. Hopefully, Honda will do something similar before too long, but doing things like releasing the CR-Z and naming a scooter "Integra" almost seems more of a taunt of its former enthusiasts.
Then again, maybe Honda saw what was being done to many of its Integras, Civic Sis, Preludes and S2000s (I don't think NSXs suffered much humiliation) and became so traumatized they decided to never make a car that'll wind up in neon and spinners again.
When I began looking for a new car a few years ago, however, I was surprised at how far away Honda had gone from what was once its company dna, competitive differentiator, whatever you want to call what made me and many other enthusiasts love their cars. So, it's hard not to be critical, as a decade ago, there were at least five Honda/Acuras I would have been happy to buy, but now there aren't any.
From a business perspective, I can understand the desire to move away from enthusiasts and go more mainstream--I believe BMW is more profitable now than any time in its history, for instance, while Mazda is projecting a full year loss--but Honda does not stand out as much as it used to in mainstream vehicles, either, and, most surprisingly, its build quality is showing signs of faltering while other companies have made improvements.
I still have hope. Toyota, after all, moved away from making sporty cars well before Honda but is now co-developing one of the most anticipated enthusiast-oriented cars in decades. Hopefully, Honda will do something similar before too long, but doing things like releasing the CR-Z and naming a scooter "Integra" almost seems more of a taunt of its former enthusiasts.
Then again, maybe Honda saw what was being done to many of its Integras, Civic Sis, Preludes and S2000s (I don't think NSXs suffered much humiliation) and became so traumatized they decided to never make a car that'll wind up in neon and spinners again.
Last edited by Carraway; 11-21-2011 at 12:37 PM.
11-21-2011, 01:57 PM
#96
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Thread Starter
I'm also one of the disillusioned Honda/Acura fans. I've owned several makes of cars, but after two Hondas, I was a good candidate to stay with the company's cars for as long as I can drive. I even bought stock in the company (although a fairly minuscule amount).
When I began looking for a new car a few years ago, however, I was surprised at how far away Honda had gone from what was once its company dna, competitive differentiator, whatever you want to call what made me and many other enthusiasts love their cars. So, it's hard not to be critical, as a decade ago, there were at least five Honda/Acuras I would have been happy to buy, but now there aren't any.
From a business perspective, I can understand the desire to move away from enthusiasts and go more mainstream--I believe BMW is more profitable now than any time in its history, for instance, while Mazda is projecting a full year loss--but Honda does not stand out as much as it used to in mainstream vehicles, either, and, most surprisingly, its build quality is showing signs of faltering while other companies have made improvements.
I still have hope. Toyota, after all, moved away from making sporty cars well before Honda but is now co-developing one of the most anticipated enthusiast-oriented cars in decades. Hopefully, Honda will do something similar before too long, but doing things like releasing the CR-Z and naming a scooter "Integra" almost seems more of a taunt of its former enthusiasts.
Then again, maybe Honda saw what was being done to many of its Integras, Civic Sis, Preludes and S2000s (I don't think NSXs suffered much humiliation) and became so traumatized they decided to never make a car that'll wind up in neon and spinners again.
When I began looking for a new car a few years ago, however, I was surprised at how far away Honda had gone from what was once its company dna, competitive differentiator, whatever you want to call what made me and many other enthusiasts love their cars. So, it's hard not to be critical, as a decade ago, there were at least five Honda/Acuras I would have been happy to buy, but now there aren't any.
From a business perspective, I can understand the desire to move away from enthusiasts and go more mainstream--I believe BMW is more profitable now than any time in its history, for instance, while Mazda is projecting a full year loss--but Honda does not stand out as much as it used to in mainstream vehicles, either, and, most surprisingly, its build quality is showing signs of faltering while other companies have made improvements.
I still have hope. Toyota, after all, moved away from making sporty cars well before Honda but is now co-developing one of the most anticipated enthusiast-oriented cars in decades. Hopefully, Honda will do something similar before too long, but doing things like releasing the CR-Z and naming a scooter "Integra" almost seems more of a taunt of its former enthusiasts.
Then again, maybe Honda saw what was being done to many of its Integras, Civic Sis, Preludes and S2000s (I don't think NSXs suffered much humiliation) and became so traumatized they decided to never make a car that'll wind up in neon and spinners again.
Honda has killed off the NSX and despite rumors of it being revived possibly soon (yay!), we get the awful news that the namesake of an exotic will now just be a mere sports car...
So, it's almost like, they have a great idea and then decide to dampen it with an unpopular one.
I think the car that got me really excited from Honda was the HSC. Everyone remember how amazing it looked? And then, bam...canned. Then, there was the Mugen Legend Max. Amazing. Bam, not in production.
That being said, despite the disappointments from that standpoint of a wildly powerful car being in the line-up (or a halo), they still do have some fun things in the line-up that I wholeheartedly like (as mentioned earlier).
11-21-2011, 01:59 PM
#97
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
And here's the lovely HSC to refresh everyone's memories...
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11-21-2011, 02:03 PM
#98
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11-21-2011, 02:40 PM
#100
05TL I don't know what your comment was in reference to, I don't own a Yukon but do respect it as a capable SUV.
Phee, I don't know how a 22y/o can have nostalgic feelings towards 90's model vehicle but I'll entertain the sentiment lol. When I compared the two, it was from a progression stand point (teen then, adult now), this doesn't apply to you and I only recently noticed your 22; I understand why'd you want something comparable to a late model civic.
What does a vehicle coming with a AT or MT have to do with it being a slush box or not? Ever heard of the GTR, Italia 458, new M line, etc? You made reference to the 4G's weight, how much does the G37 AWD, S4, Genesis sedan 4.6 or better yet one of the big 3 muscle cars weight? You want technology, luxury amenities, smooth ride, etc, here's your 4000 vehicle; only difference is some can do more and stay under that 4000lbs.
You mentioned instead of getting a 4G TL I should have gotten a genesis (lol). Let's take the 12' 4.6 spec RWD vs 12' SH-AWD, you like paper racing right? 375hp 0-60 5.9 to 305 0-60 5.2; are those 70 extra horses sleeping? I can't even imagine how much faster the TL would be on a track, the genesis has the equivalent of leaf springs for suspension lol.
The reason I didn't get the genesis is because I wanted a smart buy, not bargain basement. I don't prefer RWD to AWD, especially not since this AWD is performance orientated.
Phee, I don't know how a 22y/o can have nostalgic feelings towards 90's model vehicle but I'll entertain the sentiment lol. When I compared the two, it was from a progression stand point (teen then, adult now), this doesn't apply to you and I only recently noticed your 22; I understand why'd you want something comparable to a late model civic.
What does a vehicle coming with a AT or MT have to do with it being a slush box or not? Ever heard of the GTR, Italia 458, new M line, etc? You made reference to the 4G's weight, how much does the G37 AWD, S4, Genesis sedan 4.6 or better yet one of the big 3 muscle cars weight? You want technology, luxury amenities, smooth ride, etc, here's your 4000 vehicle; only difference is some can do more and stay under that 4000lbs.
You mentioned instead of getting a 4G TL I should have gotten a genesis (lol). Let's take the 12' 4.6 spec RWD vs 12' SH-AWD, you like paper racing right? 375hp 0-60 5.9 to 305 0-60 5.2; are those 70 extra horses sleeping? I can't even imagine how much faster the TL would be on a track, the genesis has the equivalent of leaf springs for suspension lol.
The reason I didn't get the genesis is because I wanted a smart buy, not bargain basement. I don't prefer RWD to AWD, especially not since this AWD is performance orientated.
Last edited by HeartTLs; 11-21-2011 at 02:49 PM.
11-21-2011, 02:55 PM
#101
Team Owner
Currently on my driveway: 06 accord, 07 S2000, 08 Civic
Honda is the best!!!
Who need RWD when my FWD is faster!! Who needs turbo when my hybrid can just do as good!! who needs 7 gears when my 5 speed can also get me from point A - B.
Honda is the best!!!
Who need RWD when my FWD is faster!! Who needs turbo when my hybrid can just do as good!! who needs 7 gears when my 5 speed can also get me from point A - B.
11-21-2011, 02:59 PM
#102
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
Right. But, do you like anything that is recent (i.e. 2010 and newer)? Would you put down $$$ for any of the cars on the fleet or do you feel there are better cars from the competition?
11-21-2011, 03:16 PM
#103
Hmm... not sure if this came out how you intended... but hate to tell you that the Genesis is far from "bargain basement". In fact, most people I know in a Genesis cross-shopped it with the S-Class. Not one cross-shopped it with a TL. And, AFAIK, not one even looked at Acura. It was either S-Class or save some money and get a Genesis (which will more then meet their needs) and another toy. Several even went from an S-Class to a Genesis b/c the Genesis, in their eyes, is that good.
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phee (11-22-2011)
11-21-2011, 03:26 PM
#104
I was honestly laughing at my desk, because although I'm three years older I still can't have nostalgic memories of 90's vehicles. I began driving in 2003 and thought that it warranted a sincere "lol". And although I'm not twice as old, I can say when you're as young as I am, you become exponentially knowledgable by the day, month, year.
I'm not too concerned about what the Jones are cross shopping. My father bought a S550 because it's the MERCEDES flagship instead of the LS460 because he thinks if you want luxury, go German. Most consumers only look at a vehicles short list, a few test drives, what dealers gives a better deal and goes from there. I go deeper because I can't afford to get a vehicle i'll shortly there after find inadequate.
Edit: I'm not saying the LS is superior, I'm saying the reasoning behind getting the Merc is flawed and how most consumers think.
I'm not too concerned about what the Jones are cross shopping. My father bought a S550 because it's the MERCEDES flagship instead of the LS460 because he thinks if you want luxury, go German. Most consumers only look at a vehicles short list, a few test drives, what dealers gives a better deal and goes from there. I go deeper because I can't afford to get a vehicle i'll shortly there after find inadequate.
Edit: I'm not saying the LS is superior, I'm saying the reasoning behind getting the Merc is flawed and how most consumers think.
Last edited by HeartTLs; 11-21-2011 at 03:40 PM.
11-21-2011, 03:38 PM
#105
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Why do you have to be driving in the 1990's to enjoy a car made in the 90's? Phee has an early 90's Civic, so he's as qualified as anyone to make that statement.
Unless you drove a car 3 years old or newer when you just got your license, chances are you drove a car from the 90's as well.
Unless you drove a car 3 years old or newer when you just got your license, chances are you drove a car from the 90's as well.
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11-21-2011, 03:40 PM
#106
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Why do you have to be driving in the 1990's to enjoy a car made in the 90's? Phee has an early 90's Civic, so he's as qualified as anyone to make that statement.
Unless you drove a car 3 years old or newer when you just got your license, chances are you drove a car from the 90's as well.
Unless you drove a car 3 years old or newer when you just got your license, chances are you drove a car from the 90's as well.
I've owned an '88 Accord and a '91 Prelude though I wasn't quite old enough to own them new. Those cars epitomized what Honda was capable of!
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phee (11-22-2011)
11-21-2011, 03:57 PM
#107
Why do you have to be driving in the 1990's to enjoy a car made in the 90's? Phee has an early 90's Civic, so he's as qualified as anyone to make that statement.
Unless you drove a car 3 years old or newer when you just got your license, chances are you drove a car from the 90's as well.
Unless you drove a car 3 years old or newer when you just got your license, chances are you drove a car from the 90's as well.
Not that you necessarily had to had driven them in that era but your point of reference is skewed if you driving a car nearly as old as you and asking yourself why they don't build'em like that anymore? Well because although it's new to you a lot has changed since then, Honda isn't the same company it use to be and the automotive industry isn't what it use to be. If Honda were to cater to AZ "Car Talk", there'd be no Honda;
-hey guys, I have a new business proposal, let's cater to 1% of the population
-smart the richest 1% will be easy targets
- noo, I meant 1% of motorist population, car enthusiast.
Honda offers plenty, if your stuck on v8's, FI, RWD than it's not the car company for you. I'm not saying I wouldn't love to have those things, I'm saying they didn't change, you did. As another member stated Honda isn't Ferrari.
Edit: that bit about Honda/1% would make a good newspaper cartoon, if I see it in a paper I'll be expecting my royalties check.
Last edited by HeartTLs; 11-21-2011 at 04:01 PM.
11-21-2011, 04:00 PM
#108
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
Not that you necessarily had to had driven them in that era but your point of reference is skewed if you driving a car nearly as old as you and asking yourself why they don't build'em like that anymore? Well because although it's new to you a lot has changed since then, Honda isn't the same company it use to be and the automotive industry isn't what it use to be. If Honda were to cater to AZ "Car Talk", there'd be no Honda;
-hey guys, I have a new business proposal, let's cater to 1% of the population
-smart the richest 1% will be easy targets
- noo, I meant 1% of motorist population, car enthusiast.
Honda offers plenty, if your stuck on v8's, FI, RWD than it's not the car company for you. I'm not saying I wouldn't love to have those things, I'm saying they didn't change, you did. As another member stated Honda isn't Ferrari.
-hey guys, I have a new business proposal, let's cater to 1% of the population
-smart the richest 1% will be easy targets
- noo, I meant 1% of motorist population, car enthusiast.
Honda offers plenty, if your stuck on v8's, FI, RWD than it's not the car company for you. I'm not saying I wouldn't love to have those things, I'm saying they didn't change, you did. As another member stated Honda isn't Ferrari.
11-21-2011, 04:04 PM
#109
Team Owner
If now i have to replace my cars with 2010+ within the same price range.
It would be 2011 Kia Optima (accord), 2007 S2000, 2011 Golf TDi with no options (Civic, EX-L)
Last edited by oonowindoo; 11-21-2011 at 04:07 PM.
11-21-2011, 04:11 PM
#110
Team Owner
So, does that make Honda a "boring" or "vanilla" car manufacturer to you? Because, what you said, certainly explains (which I think is clear to most of us anyhow) the strategy Honda is taking: catering to the general populace. But, do you think this strategy makes Honda boring/dull/vanilla...?
See, Toyota is boring and Vanilla but at least Lexus has IS-F and LFA. what does Acura have? a TL?
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phee (11-22-2011)
11-21-2011, 04:11 PM
#111
So, does that make Honda a "boring" or "vanilla" car manufacturer to you? Because, what you said, certainly explains (which I think is clear to most of us anyhow) the strategy Honda is taking: catering to the general populace. But, do you think this strategy makes Honda boring/dull/vanilla...?
Yes for the most part BUT there's still some models that can provide Phee with nostalgic fun, lemme stop...
I think the civic Si is great, haven't driven the 2012 and 4G TL w/ AWD is great as well. Other mentioned the Fit/CR-Z but I've yet to drive those and will take their word on it.
Agreeing with the poster above I do wish Acura had the equivalent to IS-F or GTR and anticipate its arrival but by no means do I think they sound make a LFA equivalent; didn't Lexus lose money on everyone they built?
Last edited by HeartTLs; 11-21-2011 at 04:15 PM.
11-21-2011, 04:14 PM
#112
Moderator
Not that you necessarily had to had driven them in that era but your point of reference is skewed if you driving a car nearly as old as you and asking yourself why they don't build'em like that anymore? Well because although it's new to you a lot has changed since then, Honda isn't the same company it use to be and the automotive industry isn't what it use to be. If Honda were to cater to AZ "Car Talk", there'd be no Honda;
-hey guys, I have a new business proposal, let's cater to 1% of the population
-smart the richest 1% will be easy targets
- noo, I meant 1% of motorist population, car enthusiast.
Honda offers plenty, if your stuck on v8's, FI, RWD than it's not the car company for you. I'm not saying I wouldn't love to have those things, I'm saying they didn't change, you did. As another member stated Honda isn't Ferrari.
Edit: that bit about Honda/1% would make a good newspaper cartoon, if I see it in a paper I'll be expecting my royalties check.
-hey guys, I have a new business proposal, let's cater to 1% of the population
-smart the richest 1% will be easy targets
- noo, I meant 1% of motorist population, car enthusiast.
Honda offers plenty, if your stuck on v8's, FI, RWD than it's not the car company for you. I'm not saying I wouldn't love to have those things, I'm saying they didn't change, you did. As another member stated Honda isn't Ferrari.
Edit: that bit about Honda/1% would make a good newspaper cartoon, if I see it in a paper I'll be expecting my royalties check.
11-21-2011, 04:16 PM
#113
Team Owner
Yes for the most part BUT there's still some models that can provide Phee with nostalgic fun, lemme stop...
I think the civic Si is great, haven't driven the 2012 and 4G TL w/ AWD is great as well. Other mentioned the Fit/CR-Z but I've yet to drive those and will take their word on it.
I think the civic Si is great, haven't driven the 2012 and 4G TL w/ AWD is great as well. Other mentioned the Fit/CR-Z but I've yet to drive those and will take their word on it.
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phee (11-22-2011)
11-21-2011, 04:17 PM
#114
Senior Moderator
I love when people use extremes to try and make a point. Nobody is asking for Honda to only make RWD cars with V8's. What they have now is fine, its what they don't have that bothers us.
11-21-2011, 04:24 PM
#115
Team Owner
Cars like S2000, NSX, Legend, ITR, Si and of course CL-S (260hp in 2000, 20 more than E36 M3) have helped Honda/Acura standout from the rest, yes they might not sell as many NSX as civic but it was served as a great marketing tools for rest of the lineup.
now.. blahhh
11-21-2011, 04:40 PM
#116
^^
the J-series V6, the very one in that current pinnacle of Acura design (the 4g TL of course) was designed in 1996, right here in the US. It first appeared in the late 90s 3.0CL. Hell, VTEC first appeared on our shores in 91 (NSX) and the first Super Handling anything was the Prelude Type SH...all from the 90s.
To say that the 90s didn't influence Honda of today is preposterous. Its like saying Magic, Bird, and Jordan didn't have an influence on the NBA of today. Honda of today is still living off of the 80s and 90s....even the latest and 'greatest' of this generation.
the J-series V6, the very one in that current pinnacle of Acura design (the 4g TL of course) was designed in 1996, right here in the US. It first appeared in the late 90s 3.0CL. Hell, VTEC first appeared on our shores in 91 (NSX) and the first Super Handling anything was the Prelude Type SH...all from the 90s.To say that the 90s didn't influence Honda of today is preposterous. Its like saying Magic, Bird, and Jordan didn't have an influence on the NBA of today. Honda of today is still living off of the 80s and 90s....even the latest and 'greatest' of this generation.
Last edited by CarbonGray Earl; 11-21-2011 at 04:43 PM.
11-21-2011, 04:40 PM
#117
Your Friendly Canadian
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Age: 31
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The old Honda catered to both the enthusiast and the average consumer, and it did just fine then, didn't it?
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CarbonGray Earl (11-21-2011)
11-21-2011, 04:40 PM
#118
The sizzle in the Steak
When a formerly small, uninteresting car maker like Kia now leapfrogs Honda by offering more exciting designs, powertrains, & features/amenities than Honda who used to be a leader in this area.....you know something is seriously wrong.
11-21-2011, 04:42 PM
#119
The sizzle in the Steak
^^ the J-series V6, the very one in that current pinnacle of Acura design (the 4g TL of course) was designed in 1996, right here in the US. It first appeared in the late 90s 3.0CL. Hell, VTEC first appeared on our shores in 91 (NSX) and the first Super Handling anything was the Prelude Type SH...all from the 90s.
To say that the 90s didn't influence Honda of today is preposterous. Its like saying Magic and Bird didn't have an influence on the NBA of today. Honda of today is still living off of the 80s and 90s....even the latest and greatest of this generation.
To say that the 90s didn't influence Honda of today is preposterous. Its like saying Magic and Bird didn't have an influence on the NBA of today. Honda of today is still living off of the 80s and 90s....even the latest and greatest of this generation.
11-21-2011, 04:47 PM
#120
^^
How are you even allowed to live in SoCal.
FWIW, if Honda were actually like Magic, they'd still be well-liked and making tons of dough, even after their heyday....
How are you even allowed to live in SoCal.FWIW, if Honda were actually like Magic, they'd still be well-liked and making tons of dough, even after their heyday....