In an age when V-6's are putting out 325+hp and similar torque figures without any forced induction tricks (turbos or superchargers) I wonder what the real need for a V-8 option is anyway.

I remember when 300hp was unequivocally "super-car" territory. Exotic cars of not that long ago could only aspire to 300+hp engines (especially with the newer SAE rating requirements). So with the bar starting at 325 hp for ~3.7 liter normally aspirated engines, what's the ceiling when you start blowing these things? Is 400hp out of the question? I'm thinking it's not. So where does a V-8 fit into this scenario?

Is it possible it doesn't?

 

V8's are about to become extinct. That is a fact. Taking into account the upcoming CAFE standard and the very volatile global economy, automakers are looking for ways to increase efficiency while at the same time decrease cost and decrease climate impact. V8's may linger here and there for some time but they will become very limited niche products catering to a very select group of people. The next 10 years we're going to see hybrid technology realizing its full potential....they will become much more affordable to more people while at the same time becoming more powerful and even more fuel efficient. I also think diesel technology, electric and hydrogen powerplants becoming much more prevalent, too.

 

i think you guys are missing the fact that a v8 can be a very small displacement motor with more torque than a v6 can accomplish. i dont think v8's are going anywhere.

there will always be a place for them in performance cars and trucks.

 

Torque > HP, that's fo sho!

It's amazing how much HP/displacement manufacturers are achieving nowadays, but if you drive 2 300 hp cars, one with 240TQ and the other with 340TQ, you will never discount the V8 again.

 

Yep, a 3.7 V6 is a pretty big V6. There are smaller V8s.

I'd rather have more cylinders, even if total displacement is less.

 

MODERATOR'S NOTE: This is an apparent post scriptum to the ongoing thread in the 4G TL forum, (LINK) with a consensus sampling of Azine member opinions regarding Honda's resistance to go the V8/RWD route.

 

V8s will forever have a place in performance cars. They may not be seen as often, but as its been said, there's the torque of the V8 and of course the sound, which will never be matched by a V6 IMO.

 

With all due respect my friend, American supercars had to have, at the minimun, 325 HP out of a big block engine to qualify for that label (we're talking the prime era of 1964 - 1967). Granted, the measuring methods used then are not the same as those used now, but I can assure you that a 389 to 401 cubic inch big block engine in a supercar of that time was a formidable machine on the drag strip. And cars like the 396 L78 '66 Chevelle were nothing to sneeze at. While rated at 375 HP, the actual numbers delivered to the clutch were in the neighborhood of 430 HP for that engine.

The modern V6 engines we see in many of today's cars are remarkable in their own right. Our TL's with their rather smallish 196 cubic inch V6 does very well in the performance department. Hauling around a 3500 pound car with that small engine and doing it with a measure of aplomb is respectable indeed.

But there is still something about a V8, and especially an American one, that gets the visceral juices flowing. As for economy, take a look at the Z06 Corvette. Here we have a 427 big cube normally aspired small block (it's actually a 428 but Chevy will not use that nomenclature) that manages 505 HP and 470 lb/ft of torque from a pushrod engine which can trace its fundamental design back to 1955 which can deliver 24 MPG (EPA) on the highway. Talk about having your cake and eating it too.

The future of the V6 is bright and solid and I suspect the V8 is going to continue to be with us for some time.

 

No replacement for Displacement. Ill take a NA V8 over a 6 any day, even if its FI (now give me a CTS-V motor and ill laugh all the way)

 

I'd say as long as gasoline engines retain their everyday relevance the V8 will be around. Pushed farther to the margins perhaps...

 

small V8's like the 3.4L's one make a ton of power NA than a v6 of similar displacement could. Also this is the way the entire market is working now:

FI V6's replace NA V8's
FI v8's replace NA V10's and V12's

look at BMW, they are using 4.4L V8's that are turbo'ed that are putting down around 450+ HP

 

Id love a small, 4-4.2l V8. HP sells cars, Tq wins races.

 

Had the pleasure late this morning of following a new model GT500 Mustang into a strip mall parking lot. I briefly spoke to the owner. My personal favorite is the late model Z06 Corvette, but I have to love the blown Mustang, too.

Really, I admire all decent driving machines. I have my favorites, but I really love these things.

 

The modern V6 engines are technical marvels, producing excellent horsepower with a smoothness unheard of compared to just a few short years ago. I think, however, the V8 will always be around. It may be smaller and packaged differently, but it will survive, if only for a marketing tool. And I think many people like torque where is should be: At the bottom.

Who knows for sure however, as the wants and needs of the consumer is always changing. Electric motors offer huge amounts of torque potential as well, so perhaps hybrids will become more common. Whatever happens, I'l always have a few V8 powered vehicles sitting in the garage. Once you hear the sound of big block Ford V8 burbling away it's hard to be without one.


Terry

 

Some of you say that a v8 can be a very small displacement motor with more torque than a v6 can accomplish. How does that work?

I'm trying to think of some examples, and I don't really see how that's true. For instance, take the 4.0L V8 engine from the M3, it has 295lbft of torque, or 73.5lbft/L. Now look at the TL's engine, 3.7L V6 engine with 273lbft of torque, that's 73.78lbf/L. Obviously the M3's engine is tuned for high end power, but keep in mind it's also a newer engine, and it's an engine for the mighty M3, versus the "decade-old" J series. And the torque curve of the J37 is as flat as Kansas too.

IMO, I don't think the advantage of having a V8 over a V6 is torque given the same displacement. It's more for the ability to rev, which means higher redline, and that usually means more top end power (assuming you also have other necessary things, such as DOHC, etc). My understanding is that, each part can be made smaller, lighter, and thus has lower inertia, and so it's easier to move faster. It also helps improve NVH. Looking back at the history of F1, given the same displacement, as the number of cylinders grows, the redline rises, and so does hp. In production cars, besides the M3, there are also other high revving V8's/V10's that support my argument - namely the M5, various engines from Lamborgini and Ferrari.

 

At this point, even 6-cylinders are becoming less relevant for everyday commute driving.
The normally-aspirated 4-cylinder has surpassed many of the old V8s in driveability-- compare a 170 HP 4-cyl. Camry or Accord with a '90s Caprice or Crown Victoria.
In speed/performance and towing/cargo applications, the V8 and 6-cylinders will remain relevant; they just won't be as necessary or popular as in the past.

 

I have learned two things in the last six weeks with my CTS-V.

a) There is NO replacement for displacement. 6.2 liters + SC=insane power.
b) Oh, so THAT's what low-end torque is.

I don't think V8s will go away, but they will be certainly fewer in number, particularly with the number of high-po V6s available. This fact played a significant role in my recent purchase. They will continue to be mandatory for another few years for a car to be considered "true luxury".

I see the number of high-po 4-cylinder engines going up as well. Was the S2000 (aka most powerful production engine per liter ever) ahead of its time? It wouldn't be the first time a Honda product did that.

 

I love the compromise of the V6/I6/Boxer 6, being able to produce respectable levels of power, refinement, and fuel savings in a small engine.

BUT

I'll always take a 4.2 L V8 from Audi or 5.5 L MB AMG motor over the 6 for performance reasons. Probably not very fuel efficient (not the point), and not really great for a daily use vehicle (once again not the point), but a V8 is the engine to have in a performance oriented vehicle.

 

I don't know about small displacement V8s making tons of torque, or at least more than N/A V6s. High revving usually goes hand-in-hand with less torque, at least compared to similar displacement engines. and people with M3s are getting under 20 mpg combined

As mentioned above, the LS7 is an N/A V8 which makes 505/470 hp/tq and gets 24 mpg highway. There isn't a naturally-aspirated V6 out there that can accomplish that... hell I don't think there's any V6 that can period.

 

110%. However, there seems to be a school of thought (mainly in Hondaphile circles) that asserts "why have a RWD blown 6.2L V8 sports sedan when that RL you used to own was just as big a monster?"

 

Hp sells cars, torque wins races....

 

V8s will never go away, they are getting face lifts, gone are the good old Chrysler 318, 340 and 360, Ford 302 and 351, and Chevy 350, 400 and 454, just as how the new LS7 and LS9 engines bare little resembelance to thier old school roots you look at the power output from these engines and there again you see what modern engine building techniqes that found thier way in V6s first can do when applied to a V8. Imagine a 4.9L V8 from Honda, not far fetched, it would simply be a J37 with two more cylinders added on. Hell one of the best old school V6s ever produced was the Chevy 4.3L, it was literally a 350V8 with the front two cylinders cut off as it shared pistons, con rods, valves, lifters and push rods with the std truvk 350 4 bolt main engine.

 

engine output of today is only possible with the modern electronics to control them.....

in 1982 my chrylser 5th avenue put out 125hp and about 240lbs of torque with a 5.2L V8. 20 years later my CL-S puts down over twice the HP, nearly the same torque, revs over 2K higher and returns over 8mpg more city and 12 more highway...... all possible due largely to electronics.......as engine design had already been pretty much perfected by the late 60's and they knew how to build high performance parts....

Will V8's ever go away? possibly due to the environmental wackos out there but a V6 no matter how well built is not suited for heavy vehicles or towing. want proof? Acura MDX........

 

na Chrysler 318 grand c 225 hp much more tq. by the time i was done about 330 hp about equal tq. all naturally aspirated. it was lifted though if i got one again i'd lower it and supercharge it. there was one 95 limited running the quarter in the 10's.

I loved the v8. way to many mods. way to cheap.

 

TVR already has a N/A 4.0L I6 thats pushing out 380hp and 350ft/lbs@5k

 

To be fair, the Vette has very tall gear ratios. On the highway, the engine is probably running at a little bit over 1000rpm...lol...and that's possible because of its torque and its relatively light curb weight.

I also don't think there's any NA V6 production that makes over 500hp 450+lbft of torque. To make that much torque, you will need displacement - there's no replacement for displacement when it comes to torque. But there's a limit to 6 cylinders, it can't really go much higher than 4L, just like how it's not such a good idea to have a 3L I4 engine. It's possible, but you will need to worry about some other issues such as vibration and harshness. Even if you can make that much torque, you probably can't rev the engine high to make that much hp. So I think this is the time when more cylinders is useful.

But then the OP's concern is only up to 400hp for a boosted V6. In this case, I do think a V6 would be adequate for the job. I guess one shouldn't say V8 will become irrelevant. It's just that its use will be pushed upmarket for sports cars and luxury cars.

 

I can attest to an inline 6 here making a nice, tidy 700HP, with potential to be higher. The old 2JZ and 1JZ motors from Toyota can put some serious power down (3L), as long as you are using some serious boost.

However, for normal driving a 6 cylinder can be a better choice for fuel economy while providing a good amount of power.

 

But at what cause? I wouldnt what to have to run it to 7k rpm to get those peak numbers where daily driven the #s are much lower. Every day driving is much more satisfying when you dont have to drive it like you stole it :cough: S2K AP1 just to get around briskly.

 

^Yeah, I had a AP1 and although top end , handeling was great, the car could not get out of it's own way off the line and made for very disappointing driving in normal traffic. Now put a J V6 under the hood it would hacve made a whol different car that would have been great all around.

 

Ours go to 11?

 

lol, I don't think they will be using cast iron block anymore though...hopefully there will be another breakthrough in material engineering....to come up with a material that can take boost while being light and stuff. Perhaps this kind of material does exist, it's just that in general migrating to a material takes a bit of time?

 

The cars I mentioned still make decent amount of torque. It's not 500lbft, but you know, 300-400lbft IMO is more than enough, don't you think so?

Even the G37, it "only" makes 270lbft of torque, yet people don't complain it being torqueless. And you need to rev it to around 7k to get the peak hp. I mean, it certainly doesn't feel like a 335i in city driving, but seems like no one really care much, at least I have yet to see anyone complaining about the relatively lack of torque of the G37 on this forum.

Anyways, I see where you are coming from, 150lbft of torque is certainly not very satisfying, but we are talking about larger displacement V6 here that makes well over 250lbft of torque, and in that case, I really don't think you have to rev much to get moving for city driving.

 

V6s simply cannot match V8s for sound. You put an exhaust on a V8 and it burbles and sings. You put one on a V6, no matter how hard you try and it sounds somewhat ricey, in my opinion.

 

The V8 is'nt going away anytime soon.

 

That comment made me

 

When I had my goat there were just some things that a NA or even a lightly boosted 6 will never do:
Pulling away from a stop by dumping the clutch without giving it any gas.
Cruising 80 Mph at 2000 RPM.
Passing without downshifting.
5 to 100 mph in 3rd gear
Burnouts as long as you want.

Do they make the max power/liter? No.
Are they sophisticated? No.
Will they give you a boner? Hells ya!

 

lol

not to mention V8s can shake the ground underneath you while just idling! For a DD it sucks ass, but with a cam/heads straight piping with dumps before the axle on a big V8 makes it feels like there's the epicenter of an earthquake right next to you!

Gobs of low-end torque ftw!! Scratch that.... gobs of torque all over the powerband ftw!!!

 

I love the sound of my TL with AEM intake.

I fucking love the sound of my friend's Mustang GT with custom exhaust.

V8 engines will not be discontinued, period.

 

awesome thread!! i enjoyed reading this all....

As a gear hear myself... i agree... V-8's will go NOWHERE... theres always a need, and there will always be a buyer for a nice 5.0L+ V8 engine.

and the exhaust tone, is very very very true... My mother (crazy like i am) has an AMG CLK550... completely stock.. that thing SCREAMS AND GROWLS when you get on the throttle... it doesnt whine, zip, buzz, humm, whuurrr or anything... its straight-up intimidating


But yes, i also agree, that V-6's are becoming more and more efficient and powerful.. to me, the most amazing V6 is the new 335i engine.... with a chip and exhaust, you are in the 400hp range.. and like somebody else mentioned, a Toyota 1JZ or 2JZ engine is capable of A LOT of power (upgraded internals + major boost)

At HIN NY 2008, there was a Lexus IS-300... won the aware for most proven HP... it was like 1,100whp... on a boosted 2JZ-GTE engine



neuronbob.. .loved the quote.... THATS what low end torque feels like.. something we surely know NOTHING about in the FWD/Honda/Acura world

 

all I have to do is let off the brake and my car will move forward all by it'self
in my CL-S 2K gets you 75 so what is your point on that?
turn off the traction control and yeah it will sit and spin

define passing without downshifting any car can pass another car without downshifting, some will do it quicker than others....

ur argument makes no sense..............