Yumcha

Okay folks. This seems to be quite the segue topic in the NSX thread with lots of thoughts and opinions on the matter.

So, let's continue the chatter here!

Remember: We encourage debate and discussion but let's keep the personal insults and out regardless of how "stupid" you may think someone else's opinion is.

KillerG

Halo cars.

Not necessary, but they do elevate the brand image and bring some respect to the home manufacturer.

They should not have to be defined by any strict criteria like volume, price, availability, popularity, etc, thatll lead to alot of discussion on some people placing subjective values on what cars qualify as "halo cars" to them and why others should not be considered halo cars based on whatever vague criteria we describe...

but w/e lets kick off the dispute:

Porsche: Carrerra GT... upcoming 918
Lexus: LFA
Mercedes: SLR 722...SLS
Ferrari: Enzo...upcoming Enzo replacement
Acura: ...upcoming NSX
Aston: One-77
Lambo: Reventon
BMW: ...upcoming i8

ttribe

No

Yes

No.

No.

Hopefully.

No.

No.

No. It's meant to launch a new "brand."


Why? https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...postcount=2981

https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...postcount=2988

Stapler

Interesting that those are all Supercars. BMW is now using the Rolls Royce brand name, Mercedes had Maybach, and Audi has Bently, but I don't see the a8, 7, or s class as being special. I can't think of a luxury car that really caries the brand. Maybe the Hyundai Equus?

KillerG

Are you talking halo car or halo brand?

@tribe: feel free to disagree, this will be a largely subjective discussion like i already mentioned, and sourcing yourself doesn't really mean the information is any more accurate than usual

ttribe

LOL! I know. I just didn't want to re-write what I'd already said.

KillerG

It's all good. All the people from the NSX thread are gonna grab their pitchforks and head here soon im sure

It's interesting how everyone has their own definition of what does and doesn't qualify as a halo car


source: https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...19&postcount=7

ttribe

ETA: Well played on the self-sourcing.

Legend2TL

Yes to all, make it easy

CarbonGray Earl

'Halo' car....surprised no one's brought up a Warthog yet.

KillerG

check out the hp on this thing:

Legend2TL

Nissan GT-R also a Halo

VTEC Racer

I don't think anyone from the NSX thread disagreed with what a halo car is and what purpose it is supposed to serve. The debate begins when you ask if the Lexus LFA has meet the point of being the halo car that it is intended to be.

CCColtsicehockey

Winner to you

Legend2TL

ZR1 also a halo

imj0257

iTrader: (1)

First thing I thought coming into this thread lol

csmeance

^ you have to remember that the LS, 7-Series, S-Class and A8 are the FLAGSHIPS of their respective companies and not "Halo" cars. A Halo car is meant to show off what the brand is capable of when let off their leash. It's almost comparable to a medium between street cars and racing programs such as LeManns, F1, etc. The technology from LeManns and F1 trickle down into Halo Cars (monocque designs of modern super-cars, use of carbon fiber, titanium, etc) and then it trickles down into street cars. Take a look at the NA1 NSX, first car to be completely made out of aluminum!

But more importantly, it shows the way the brand is headed it a bigger picture; look at Audi, the R8 (first featured in iRobot a long time ago) and the A8 (featured in the transporter movies) helped the brand get it's image out once again and help consumers see what they could over today. Some folks still see Audi a step below BMW and MB however they are a very serious competitor; even I looked at the A8 W12 and S8 when I was buying a car!

The NSX is going to be the same thing for acura, it'll show Acura's future, innovation and forward progress. I mean no insults to GM here but anyone and their mother can stick a big V8 in a car and supercharge the nuts off it to make tons of power and be fast. But it takes a good set of engineers and designers and such to push for something that is incredibly efficient (IE Ferrari and Lamborghini) but it takes an even better set of engineers to make an efficient, powerful car that can be dependable (Lexus LF-A and new NSX).

phile

remember those walls I built, well baby they tumbling down

oo7spy

What about the R18 for Audi?

On The Run

So if this is the case then a halo car is really only necessary for a company that wants to prove itself as a sporting marque. I know in the past, a car manufacturer's creed was "Race on Sunday, sell on Monday", but it seem that anymore the general public is not as impressed with performance measured in melted rubber, but with performance in efficiency.

(Cultivate on Sunday, sell on Monday?)

So with that said, could a car like the Chevy Volt be considered a halo car as well? *Puts on the thickest flame suit imaginable*

The Volt demonstrates to the public what Chevy is capable of doing from a technological standpoint at least.

I don't think race cars count, unless they're sold to the general public like the Mercedes Benz CLK GTR?

KillerG

Yep. I think the Volt deserves halo car status. In fact it is such a good car that motor trend even awarded it it's coveted 2011 car of the year award. Thats a pretty big accolade for a small car. In the future we're headed towards halo cars will be all about hybrid power and efficiency

IM LYING DONT LISTEN TO ME. MOTOR TREND SUCKS DICK. WHAT THE FUCK WERE THEY THINKING.

speedemon90

Dunno if the convo has switched away from the LFA... BUT most of the people I know dont go on car forums or auto shows, actually barely anyone I know goes to those except for one or two close people.

But cars sometimes comes up as a topic of discussion and I would say quite a bit of the public does know about the LFA. Obviously not everyone does.

I'm sure if you go to a lexus dealership they must have a poster of the LFA there (would think it) that its self exposes the car to thousands of people...

They ran ads that had the LFA in it.

Thousands of people go to auto shows not because they are enthusiasts but because they are car shopping. They will see the LFA there.

So yes, I would say a good amount of the public knows about the LFA.

oo7spy

Even if a million people new what it was, that would still account for less than 0.5% of the population over 15 years old. (~240M people 15+)

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

If I took a random poll around the office and the neighborhood... most would have no idea what it is. I could even ask only the folks driving high end cars, and most still would not know...

Car guys/gals, yes. General public... no.

SharksBreath

iTrader: (33)

samesies.

HBaJ

On the fence with a lot of this, but I believe if implemented correctly halo cars do have lots of substance to them. IMO, I think a Halo has to have a great effect in a marketing standpoint. It also gives a brand credibility, and helps to serve as R&D for cars that you and I drive everyday. If marketed correctly, like BMW's recent ad showing the M3 GTS, or how Audi used to show the R8 in just about every ad, it does draw in a consumer who could possibly aspire to "graduate" into that vehicle.

Example: Say I buy a 335i M-Sport because its still quick and its the closest thing I can get to my dream car, the M3 GTS. Thanks to the GTS I can get some nice interior bits and pieces, a few cosmetic mods and maybe even some go fast parts passed down from that halo car into my M-Sport packaged vehicle. In a few years I purchase a regular M3 and I can add some visual modifications to replicate the GTS (black ZCP wheels, etc.). Then finally I have made it big, divorced my wife, bought an M5 for daily use and "graduated" into the M3 GTS.

In this example, a lot of tech is passed down from halo cars into the regular cars. If not tech then atleast design cues, which make you feel you own a part of that car. When people buy cars like the S8/RS4 they have the right to say "You know, this is the same engine that Audi puts in the R8". It gives the brand some credibility throughout their lineup and it goes hand in hand with the marketing. Before you know it Acura will be saying "The new TL A-Spec, now available with a 7 speed DCT, as seen in the NSX". Now you wont have to see a half naked Calvin Johnson, and instead can watch some Acuras do some spirited driving. My examples may be really stretched, but you get where i'm going with this.

Legend2TL

Yes, it was a racing car and not a halo but Porsche even made a brochure for their 917 which is still amusing today.

https://iedei.wordpress.com/2011/03/...ochure-please/

Rick_TL-S

Exactly, and this is why Porsche & Ferrari do build halo cars.

The upcoming 918 Spyder built by the P.I.P. division is a perfect example. It showcases what Porsche can create with no budget & that technology has already trickled down into the Porsche Boxster E, which will eventually form the mold for Porsche's upcoming road cars.

The Enzo as well, was certainly the halo car of its day & fits the bill of what cs was talking about. Ferrari placed every last bit of F1 technology into that car & today, the 458 is the offspring of what was originally ground-breaking tech. in a Formula 1 car.

If we were to talk about a Halo car in the sense:
Ferrari & Porsche has done that more than any other manufacturer.

There's plenty of common features between the Enzo & the current Ferrari range. But since the argument there is that Ferrari's are all in a "different territory", then what are cars you consider "halo" vehicles?

On The Run

I think your trickle-down theory has a lot of merit with people like us, and other car/racing fans. Sure if you poll your office and ask who knows about the Brand X GTO they're either going to feign a nod and hope you stop talking or just say no.

But, if you were to poll say a NASCAR race, with 150,000+ in attendance, then at least familiarity with the product would increase (maybe not interest if it's a Lexus LFA at a NASCAR race, but who knows.)

Like I said, though, I think performance based halo cars are not necessarily a thing of the past but I think it's going to be a lot less about the raw power and more about the power/efficiency balance.

HBaJ

Again, yes and no. I think you're equating performance with inefficiency of some sort, when in reality a lot of race/performance tech does the opposite. Take direct fuel injection for example, and actually DCT transmissions since I already used that example. Originally designated for performance oriented vehicles, and now offered on your sister's Golf GTI. That I think is the best part of the "trickle down", the technology into the everyday commuter car. I think you may be taking the word "efficient" quite one-dimensionally with just FUEL efficiency in mind?

On The Run

Right, I am, and that's only because general perception is very one-dimensional. I definitely realize that there is more to making a car than what I've been boiling it down to but as some have pointed out, the car companies are not trying to make just us lot happy, they're trying to pique the interest of a consumer that is perhaps a little more saavy with their money, anymore, and is not only interested in impressing their neighbors.

I guess, in my opinion, the bottom line is: your average consumer is going to give you about 15-30 seconds to get your point across, they're not going to spend 3 hours on a message board. It's definitely irritating to see such a marvelous thing as a car be boiled down to a few cheeky catch-phrases but that's why I suggested the Volt is more of a Halo car than the ZR1.

Chevy Volt: Little gas, little money, good for environment, cutting edge, American.

I mean, let's face it, MPG is a huge hot-button issue anymore.

ttribe

I would say less so in the premium/lux markets (which is where Acura seems to be aiming...or at least trying to).

On The Run

Probably a fair assertion, but look at brands like Fisker.

ttribe

Fisker and Tesla both are stepping into all new territory - pure lux/environmentally friendly. I they're an experiment in the market, but definitely one worth watching.

HBaJ

Well I think thats on a brand-to-brand basis. Which is why I said I was on the fence, because not all brands NEED a halo car. A company like Kia/Volvo/VW don't really need halo cars because you know what you're getting, and you're a unique consumer. A well established flagship model would do just fine here. (also an important distinction to make, flagship doesnt = halo) I think a company like Acura does however need a halo car (and a true flagship for that matter) in this point in time, to bring interest back into the brand, especially when a competitors like Nissan and Lexus are taking the world on in this "supercar" segment, Acura/Honda has it's tail between its legs. Above all, companies like Toyota/Nissan/Honda building halo cars is important because it shows they still care, that they aren't just pumping out beige-mobiles. If I were 9-10 years old right now and had an LFA poster on my wall, you better believe i'm going to consider a used F-Sport or some sort of sport Lexus as my first car.
(I know this because I had the red NSX poster on my room, and my first car was an Accord haha)

oo7spy

I think the issue with the efficiency topic is that people can't reverse thinking implanted into their heads from 1980-2000. They still think Hyundais are crap, oil changes come every 3k, you can't switch from synthetic to conventional, and most importantly, a V8 can't be fuel efficient. I have heard real world experiences of 30+ mpgs in a 'Vette. When you consider the aerodynamics, the power, and implementing cylinder shut down, it is very well possible today to have you cake and eat it to. However, with the 30 second attention span, if you mention V8 you lose the MPG-philes, and if you mention fuel efficiency, you lose the power cravers.

MASK

Did you dudes notice that the NSX II was originally planned as 2014/2015 production model and now stated to be a 2013 ??

You could say Honda thinks it will save Acura image and therefore expedited it ... or you could say Honda wants it out before all the other Hybrid Super Cars {like Audi, BMX, Jag, etc have plans}.
Eitherway, Halos tranish with age and unless kept at forefront become a crown of horns.

On The Run

That's a really good point, and I didn't consider brands like Ferrari when making my statement. If it were up to me I'd have brands like Kia putting everything they've got into a hypercar, throw the "Green" book out the door and have everybody battling everybody at the circuit!

I agree with you completely that Acura needs a halo car - whether or not the NSX II is the ticket I guess we will all see. The thing I worry about most is that Honda/Acura will suffer from lack of inspiration and will create something that's in it 85%.

The original NSX always had that je ne sais quoi that kept it in our hearts when it was being passed by much faster/advanced cars of the future. Like I said in some other thread, maybe it was just Ayrton

KillerG

Someone on NSXprime mentioned that their dealer dropped it as a 2013 too and also said it would be around 150k. Interesting to say the least.

I would be surprised honestly if they managed to build a brand new automotive factory and have it staffed and ready to produce supercars within the next two years.

Mind you we have no idea what the production model will look like and we havent even seen any prototypes hit the ground on their own two feet.

On the one hand the 3 year timeframe is excruciating but atm i don't see it being done any faster than that

Also, KERS please. The upcoming P12 and 918 will both be KERS equipped also so let's see what unfolds