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The thing is.... when you really have that kind of $$.. not the ones who starve themselves just to be able to afford a car, then chances are you could careless, because you will have multiple cars and other toys at your disposal.
We are judging and thinking from outside looking in. But when you are actually inside, your mentality and your priority will be very different than what you have today.
OH dude for sure. If I had enough income/wealth to easily afford cars like a 570S/488/etc., I'd definitely own one or several....plus baller daily 'beaters'. I've met a couple living out here who is likely in the 1% as they own large amounts of properties and literally they can take what would be an avg person's lifetime/dream vacation and just do it in an instant, go away for 1mo and have no dent in their financial situation whatsoever. The husband has an oceant front property out here that he's renovating slowly but he parks his extra exotic cars there just due to some extra space....totally diff world those people live in.
I was just speaking about pretty much all of the rest of us who can only dream of such ownership and why I think turo is great. Let's us plebians experience a bit of what the good life is like...lol
Yeah man nbd if your McLaren is in the shop. Just pull the i8 out of the 4 car garage - oh wait this is Californiacurbside parking of your 300 sq ft studio and slum it to work.
I really like Toyota trucks. Ex had a nicely set up FJ that I got to drive quite a bit. Just gotta adjust the mirrors properly.
My buddy got a TRD Off Road Taco, and in Manuel at that. Haven't driven a stickshift pickup in a while, the clutch and throws were long af. Still a lot of fun.
OH dude for sure. If I had enough income/wealth to easily afford cars like a 570S/488/etc., I'd definitely own one or several....plus baller daily 'beaters'. I've met a couple living out here who is likely in the 1% as they own large amounts of properties and literally they can take what would be an avg person's lifetime/dream vacation and just do it in an instant, go away for 1mo and have no dent in their financial situation whatsoever. The husband has an oceant front property out here that he's renovating slowly but he parks his extra exotic cars there just due to some extra space....totally diff world those people live in.
I was just speaking about pretty much all of the rest of us who can only dream of such ownership and why I think turo is great. Let's us plebians experience a bit of what the good life is like...lol
Co-worker picked up a new Taco. It's really really nice.
Tonka truck baby.. my BIL bought one last year to replace the previous gen, which replaced the previous gen before.
I drove it back from San Antone.. it's a truck. But even though it doesn't feel like it has good handles, it's actually pretty good on the road.
It still has deep roots and reminded so much of my pops 87 SR5 Toyota.. it will probably survive the apocalypse
Originally Posted by oonowindoo
The thing is.... when you really have that kind of $$.. not the ones who starve themselves just to be able to afford a car, then chances are you could careless, because you will have multiple cars and other toys at your disposal.
Right. The key is to do it intelligently. Like, for example, don't buy the oil filter at the dealership for $35 when you can get the same one from Amazon for $10. Same thing applies to a lot of other cars/makes too. I'd always buy TL parts from the Honda dealer because cheaper and same part. Lexus and Toyota are similar. Most manufacturers, independent or not, aren't going to go out of their way to design something as stupid as an oil filter. They'll just find one on the market that works and integrate it. Ditto for window regulators and other such commodity items. The screen, steering rack, and battery I can buy but whatever. I'm not in any position to buy a McLaren anytime soon. And it may be (actually it really is) a better idea to get a 911 Turbo S or R8 instead and save on the service costs.
That type of logic only applies to cars that come from lesser cars
That's usually not the case with an exotic
lol, if you have a last year model 993 Turbo S (1998) that's extremely clean....you may hit 400-500k?....but at 1.3M there must be more to the car....someone famous that owned or had something to do with the car? Jerry Seinfeld or something...otherwise give me that CGT!
Both cars are well over their normal markets. That CGT is trying to move based on mileage and PTS. CGTs are around $800,000 to get into right now, although if you're not bothered about use, you can find some in the $600,000 range. Some will say a more used model is more enjoyable as well since it's broken in.
964 Turbos are genrally under $400,000. If you see one asking $1m, it's because it has some rare option on it. That car has the Turbo S package, which is a 1 of 36 car option. Another 964T I saw recently was a "1-of-1" Turbo S with PTS and other buyer-requested options.
The thing is.... when you really have that kind of $$.. not the ones who starve themselves just to be able to afford a car, then chances are you could careless, because you will have multiple cars and other toys at your disposal.
We are judging and thinking from outside looking in. But when you are actually inside, your mentality and your priority will be very different than what you have today.
I look at them like video games. If I want to play Bloodborne, then I'll play it. If it's being fixed I can play Dark Souls. Sure they are similar games but I really want to play BB. But yeah that's my mentality today. Would be nice to see if my mentality changes if I had a fleet.
The thing is.... when you really have that kind of $$.. not the ones who starve themselves just to be able to afford a car, then chances are you could careless, because you will have multiple cars and other toys at your disposal.
We are judging and thinking from outside looking in. But when you are actually inside, your mentality and your priority will be very different than what you have today.
Most of the people buying new McLarens and Ferraris definitely have the $$ to not GAF about maintenance. They also have the $$ to comfortably afford a $300k car. There are also plenty more people who can comfortably afford to buy the same car at $120k and would like to also find a way to do maintenance cheaper either with DIY or identical (but cheaper) parts. No one, unless you're a total idiot, would buy one for a daily driver regardless of what some dolt on Youtube says. There's always a daily in addition to a toy.
Originally Posted by Majofo
That type of logic only applies to cars that come from lesser cars
That's usually not the case with an exotic
Why not? Genuinely curious. It's still a car and, unless it's some special proprietary thing for that specific car, why wouldn't you get an identical part for cheaper? Also the labor rates some of these high end manufacturers charge is absolutely ridiculous which is why these services are in the multi thousand range.
Why not? Genuinely curious. It's still a car and, unless it's some special proprietary thing for that specific car, why wouldn't you get an identical part for cheaper? Also the labor rates some of these high end manufacturers charge is absolutely ridiculous which is why these services are in the multi thousand range.
Troll much? Because if not, the densest object in the universe has just been discovered
Troll much? Because if not, the densest object in the universe has just been discovered
Definitely not trolling. Answer the question. I'm guessing there are a lot of people who think the same way I do, go peruse the McLaren and Ferrari forums and you'll find tons of DIY's on fixing/maintaining the car. If what you said was true, none of those would exist.
The whole fucking car is essentially proprietary. That's what classifies it as an exotic.
You're talking about a car that is hand made. Not assembly line. Not parts bin special.
Even an AMG engine, which has production numbers 100x to an exotic, is handmade.
Something simple like the head bolt stud sheering off and fucking up the engine isn't resolvable with parts.
The honing machine for the engine is proprietary. You can't just take a drill and a scrub the cylinders.
We're talking about an engine particularly spec'd and tuned by a machine shop with proprietary methods.
Even if you had the honing machine (costs something crazy like 100k)
The parts alone (which are available from AMGs machine shop) are 10-20k depending on what got damaged.
Then you talk about labor involved in removing the engine, tear down, repair, replace, and get back in running order.
You're well over the crate engine cost of 25k, which is probably more than the car is worth at this point.
Because you bought it 6 years used at a steal of 25-35k, when the sticker was ~100k.
Now apply that thinking to an exotic that had a single run of parts for each build plus maybe a second run after the first run sells.
The parts are going to be exorbitantly expensive.
Now there are some parts that might be parts bin specials. Say.. the infortainment.
Certainly an exotic outfit can't afford to start a whole division on tech. So they source it out, no biggie.
They may have a small software team that does a proprietary GUI, but it's not really sophisticated.
The controls are another thing entirely.
Maybe some fasteners are reused, heck maybe even the alternator / starter / A/C compressor.
If you're lucky. But I bet it's not easy to get to, and I bet even for an experienced gearhead, probably not worth the trouble.
Now go find me a steering rack for a reasonable price for an MP4-12C.. and rear suspension.
A 650S owner on youtube was saying how a routine oil change service at a dealer discovered huge issues with the rear suspension that required tons of work. Lot of times it's not just change the oil but you gotta do lot of inspections cause on these cars things time out or can get insanely expensive if you don't catch stuff ahead of time...and that's when the avg joe would probably have little idea of what to look for in these exotics...imagine what can be missed if you just DIY and then the car craps out and you're out a huge repair bill due to items that were not properly serviced/inspected during some of these "routine oil changes."
Hell even a R8.....just saw another guy say that to do a proper dealer-serviced engine-out procedure to get his 2008 R8 AC compressor fixed....total cost is about $10,000....good luck with any engine out type of work or if you screw up during the DIY.....
Dude, I'm talking about basic routine maintenance like changing the oil, not swapping in a crate engine or doing a full engine out service. I wouldn't do that even on a Honda Civic let alone a McLaren. I get that there are a lot of things that need to be taken to a real shop to get resolved but there are also a lot of things that can be resolved with DIY work as well. No need to get all butthurt over my opinion on the matter
A 650S owner on youtube was saying how a routine oil change service at a dealer discovered huge issues with the rear suspension that required tons of work. Lot of times it's not just change the oil but you gotta do lot of inspections cause on these cars things time out or can get insanely expensive if you don't catch stuff ahead of time...and that's when the avg joe would probably have little idea of what to look for in these exotics...imagine what can be missed if you just DIY and then the car craps out and you're out a huge repair bill due to items that were not properly serviced/inspected during some of these "routine oil changes."
Hell even a R8.....just saw another guy say that to do a proper dealer-serviced engine-out procedure to get his 2008 R8 AC compressor fixed....total cost is about $10,000....good luck with any engine out type of work or if you screw up during the DIY.....
Guessing the 650S guy had the car under warranty? Of course cars like this are expensive to keep on the road, I'm not at all disputing that. There's no way an exotic super car is as cheap to maintain as a Camry, that's just a fact of life. Repairs are always going to be more expensive than maintenance, that's the case on literally every car ever made.
For whatever this might be worth, I was listening to an episode of the podcast "Everyday Driver" during which they told a story about a Ferrari owner who was taking his car in for regular maintenance at his dealer--basically an oil change and alignment. For some reason, the Ferrari dealer sent the car out for the alignment, for which they charged car-owner $200. But on the receipt, the owner was able to see what the outside alignment "specialist" charged the Ferrari dealer for the work ... something like 90 bucks. Perhaps that's just the baked-in cost of being a "Ferrari owner"? Can't imagine how much a Ferrari oil filter costs .....
The whole fucking car is essentially proprietary. That's what classifies it as an exotic.
You're talking about a car that is hand made. Not assembly line. Not parts bin special.
Even an AMG engine, which has production numbers 100x to an exotic, is handmade.
Something simple like the head bolt stud sheering off and fucking up the engine isn't resolvable with parts.
The honing machine for the engine is proprietary. You can't just take a drill and a scrub the cylinders.
We're talking about an engine particularly spec'd and tuned by a machine shop with proprietary methods.
Even if you had the honing machine (costs something crazy like 100k)
The parts alone (which are available from AMGs machine shop) are 10-20k depending on what got damaged.
Then you talk about labor involved in removing the engine, tear down, repair, replace, and get back in running order.
You're well over the crate engine cost of 25k, which is probably more than the car is worth at this point.
Because you bought it 6 years used at a steal of 25-35k, when the sticker was ~100k.
Now apply that thinking to an exotic that had a single run of parts for each build plus maybe a second run after the first run sells.
The parts are going to be exorbitantly expensive.
Now there are some parts that might be parts bin specials. Say.. the infortainment.
Certainly an exotic outfit can't afford to start a whole division on tech. So they source it out, no biggie.
They may have a small software team that does a proprietary GUI, but it's not really sophisticated.
The controls are another thing entirely.
Maybe some fasteners are reused, heck maybe even the alternator / starter / A/C compressor.
If you're lucky. But I bet it's not easy to get to, and I bet even for an experienced gearhead, probably not worth the trouble.
Now go find me a steering rack for a reasonable price for an MP4-12C.. and rear suspension.
Just because a car is hand assembled does not mean it's hand made. I'd bet that a lot of the parts on a Ferrari (aside from engine, suspension, transmission) are straight out of a FCA parts catalog. Ditto for Lamborghini, and Bentley, and Rolls Royce, and legacy Astons (Ford days), and [insert anything other than Pagani/Koenigsegg here]. A car is an exotic because of the performance and exclusivity, not because every screw is hand machined by leprechauns out of gold from the pot at the end of the rainbow.
Asking me to find a steering rack is silly, it's unique to every car and not just a MP4-12C. Why not also ask me to find a whole crate engine?
A 650S owner on youtube was saying how a routine oil change service at a dealer discovered huge issues with the rear suspension that required tons of work. Lot of times it's not just change the oil but you gotta do lot of inspections cause on these cars things time out or can get insanely expensive if you don't catch stuff ahead of time...and that's when the avg joe would probably have little idea of what to look for in these exotics...imagine what can be missed if you just DIY and then the car craps out and you're out a huge repair bill due to items that were not properly serviced/inspected during some of these "routine oil changes."
Hell even a R8.....just saw another guy say that to do a proper dealer-serviced engine-out procedure to get his 2008 R8 AC compressor fixed....total cost is about $10,000....good luck with any engine out type of work or if you screw up during the DIY.....
I would think a crack is a crack, a worn component is a worn component...it's easy to spot broken things...ie; one side does not look like the other.
For whatever this might be worth, I was listening to an episode of the podcast "Everyday Driver" during which they told a story about a Ferrari owner who was taking his car in for regular maintenance at his dealer--basically an oil change and alignment. For some reason, the Ferrari dealer sent the car out for the alignment, for which they charged car-owner $200. But on the receipt, the owner was able to see what the outside alignment "specialist" charged the Ferrari dealer for the work ... something like 90 bucks. Perhaps that's just the baked-in cost of being a "Ferrari owner"? Can't imagine how much a Ferrari oil filter costs .....
Alignment for $90 bux? am i back in the early 2000 again? Even at $200 is BS to me considering BMW charges $200 for an alignment.
If i had a Ferrari and someone told me that they could do alignment for me for $90, i would have said No Thank you.
Now if this was going through a dealership, they might have contracts with this shop due to the # of cars they send to them. But it is a Ferrari, i can't imagine the # could be too high.
I also can't imagine Ferrari dealership does not have an alignment machine.
So the whole story that you heard sounds like BS to me.
Alignment for $90 bux? am i back in the early 2000 again? Even at $200 is BS to me considering BMW charges $200 for an alignment.
If i had a Ferrari and someone told me that they could do alignment for me for $90, i would have said No Thank you.
Now if this was going through a dealership, they might have contracts with this shop due to the # of cars they send to them. But it is a Ferrari, i can't imagine the # could be too high.
I also can't imagine Ferrari dealership does not have an alignment machine.
So the whole story that you heard sounds like BS to me.
$90 is probably what the cost to the dealership was, not what the customer paid. A Ferrari is still a car. It still has the standard attributes of alignment with toe, camber, and caster and likely the same methods of adjusting it. I'm fairly certain it doesn't require any exotic equipment or anything to make it happen. The big thing you're paying for is for someone with a "Ferrari certified technician" patch sewn on his shirt to do it. I'm also shocked at $200, I figured it would be at least $500 to align a Ferrari.
For whatever this might be worth, I was listening to an episode of the podcast "Everyday Driver" during which they told a story about a Ferrari owner who was taking his car in for regular maintenance at his dealer--basically an oil change and alignment. For some reason, the Ferrari dealer sent the car out for the alignment, for which they charged car-owner $200. But on the receipt, the owner was able to see what the outside alignment "specialist" charged the Ferrari dealer for the work ... something like 90 bucks. Perhaps that's just the baked-in cost of being a "Ferrari owner"? Can't imagine how much a Ferrari oil filter costs .....
It is 100% normal for a business to outsource work to other businesses and charge a markup on the work that was done. They decide the markup, no one else. Why it's surprising that Ferrari doubled the cost is beyond me... either way... $200 for an alignment is cheap.
Ferrari isn't going to put a 15% markup on a $90 service. It's not even worth opening the books for them, for that much. Not surprised at all they doubled the price.
Dude, I'm talking about basic routine maintenance like changing the oil, not swapping in a crate engine or doing a full engine out service. I wouldn't do that even on a Honda Civic let alone a McLaren. I get that there are a lot of things that need to be taken to a real shop to get resolved but there are also a lot of things that can be resolved with DIY work as well. No need to get all butthurt over my opinion on the matter
Routine maintenance on a MP4-12C isn't a trivial job. I wouldn't go buying one because oil filters are $30.
Originally Posted by SamDoe1
Just because a car is hand assembled does not mean it's hand made. I'd bet that a lot of the parts on a Ferrari (aside from engine, suspension, transmission) are straight out of a FCA parts catalog. Ditto for Lamborghini, and Bentley, and Rolls Royce, and legacy Astons (Ford days), and [insert anything other than Pagani/Koenigsegg here]. A car is an exotic because of the performance and exclusivity, not because every screw is hand machined by leprechauns out of gold from the pot at the end of the rainbow.
Asking me to find a steering rack is silly, it's unique to every car and not just a MP4-12C. Why not also ask me to find a whole crate engine?
This is my 5 minute Google on McLaren DIY. I'm sure there's a hell of a lot more on Lambos, Ferraris, and Astons.
Those links only emphasize my argument.
Where's the hardware spec on every piece of hardware?
Like I said, it's not trivial. Trivial to me is 30 minutes (1 hr max) done. Just to change the oil, you need to lift it at 4 points with enough clearance to properly remove the aero. What if you strip one of the drains, can you simply tap or helicoil it? I'm not saying the engine is made of exotic unobtanium, better buy a new one. But who in their right mind thinks 4 drain points plus drain the turbo lines and a bucketload of hardware to remove aero is simple? One mistake and it's hours to figure out a fix. Plus remove the glass cover over the engine and a bunch of other bits just to get to the filter. It's at least a couple of hours plus frustration time (that dude even talked about needing a scope to find a bolt he dropped and couldn't find). A lot different then unscrewing one bolt and twisting off the filter without even raising my vehicle.
Did you see that $3k LiION battery. Those power mosfets burned out the board.
That's a custom board. I have full board build capabilities, even x-ray tools to debug components.
Regular dude, even with money doesn't. Building a board isn't super expensive, but the resources to do it isn't trivial.
Say the board is salvageable and parts are replaceable. Replacing those components isn't amateur city.
Those are surface-mount fets, those leads are tiny AF. Plus there is no component or P/N info on them, good luck finding source.
Even with a good scope in front of me and a very good iron, it's diligent work. Best bet is to pay a shop to repair the board.
That's at least a few hundred if not more plus downtime.
It's not like owning a vette or mopar something. Overnight parts from Japan Mexico.
Anyways, your whole take on owning an exotic is fucking bananas.
btw.. here's a used starter on fleabay
Probably cheaper to just have it rebuilt by a rep shop for a few hunddddoooosss.
1k / yr maintenance.
Dude, I'm talking about basic routine maintenance like changing the oil, not swapping in a crate engine or doing a full engine out service. I wouldn't do that even on a Honda Civic let alone a McLaren. I get that there are a lot of things that need to be taken to a real shop to get resolved but there are also a lot of things that can be resolved with DIY work as well. No need to get all butthurt over my opinion on the matter
I don't know how McLaren works, but with Ferrari, DIY is a double-edged sword depending on your ownership. If you don't care about what the next owner may like or the absolute most you can get out of resale value, DIY is perfectly fine and achievable. The other side is that reselling a Ferrari with more service paperwork on file leads to higher & easier resales. If you can produce 10 years of work receipts showing a car is up to date by the dealer on a 360, you can ask well above the average price as piece of mind for the next owner.
The other thing is that Ferrari has rewritten how their warranty works. If you buy a Ferrari with a factory-warranty, basic routine maintenance is essentially covered free of charge. If you purchase their powertrain warranty, the engine, transmission, suspension, launch control, & steering are covered for 15 years. Paying $4,500 for the V8 to be covered for over a decade seems like a no-brainer.
A long warranty probably wouldn’t rank high on the list of reasons to buy a Ferrari, although given how expensive everything surrounding Ferraris is—including the prospect of getting one repaired—an extended warranty might be nice to have. Now the company has extended the warranty options for its cars’ main mechanical components for up to 15 years. Fittingly called the New Power15 extended service coverage, it lengthens the existing, 12-year warranty by offering the ability to buy a 12-month extension each year for three years. The extended coverage costs $4500 for cars with eight-cylinder engines and $5760 for those with V-12s.The warranty duration applies to the date from when the new car is first registered. It is in addition to Ferrari’s standard, three-year factory warranty, and its seven-year free maintenance program. The three-year bumper-to-bumper coverage also can be extended by two years.After that, Ferrari owners have the choice to buy the New Power coverage. The New Power warranty covers the car’s engine, gearbox, power take-off unit (PTU), suspension, and steering. The transferable coverage is available for both new and pre-owned Ferraris. It also can be bought for Ferraris that have had warranty coverage expire, provided the car passes a mechanical check-over.
Edit* Appears McLaren does offer a similar program to match.
The company announced that it will now offer an extended warranty that will protect your McLaren for up to 12 years from the date of manufacture. Previously, McLaren owners were only given the option to extend the factory three-year and unlimited mileage warranty to seven years. Extending the warranty does cost extra (though McLaren didn't announce how much), and can be purchased in increments of 12 to 24 months.
If you happen to have a McLaren P1, we're afraid this warranty isn't available to you. It only covers Sports Series and Super Series cars, which includes vehicles such as the 570S, MP4-12C, 650S, and variations on those models. For people looking to purchase a McLaren with this warranty, it is only available for new, and certified pre-owned McLarens that are under 10 years old and have driven fewer than 100,000 miles. The warranty also only covers problems that are not considered general wear and tear, misuse, or abuse. Aftermarket parts and upgrades also aren't covered.
$4500 is peanuts for a 15 year warranty on any car let alone a Ferrari. Shit, I paid $2100 for a lifetime warranty on the Jeep. Though it doesn't seem to be actually that though. After the three years, you have to buy two more before dropping the $4500 on the remaining 10 years?
brb, seeing how much Ferrari's less than a decade old go for these days...
Edit: Can get a 2006-2009 F430 (base, not any special editions) for ~$110k with low miles...
360 was the first of the "reliable" (lol) Ferraris that didn't need an engine out service every time you sneezed in its direction. F430 went to timing chain so no engine out service ever unless something really goes tits up. F430 is the one to get IMO. Also, it looks better.
I am ok with any Ferrari... really.... except i can't afford to keep it on the road no matter how cheap you are telling me.. People are scared of the repair cost for an average German car, let alone an Italian Exotic...
I can't imagine how anyone thinks there is a "cheap" way to own an exotic. It's not like these things are known for being low-maintenance, budget cars at the time they leave the factory.
I always liked the 360 > 430 aesthetically.
Had a neighbor at my prior house that had a 348 & 355 in his garage. Never asked him about maintenance beyond the fact that he has a good 3rd party shop that specializes in Ferrari.
08-17-2018, 02:00 PM
