Freezing your engine = better gas mileage?
11-29-2006, 04:08 AM
#1
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Freezing your engine = better gas mileage?
http://www.kfor.com/Global/story.asp?s=3390503
What do you guys think? Its been around for awhile now but why hasnt more people done it to their daily drivers?
Can anyone explain how this process would yield results like this. Is it due to less heat being made?
Americans guzzle 65 billion gallons of fuel a year and lately we have been paying a pretty penny at the pump. NewsChannel 4 has done reports in the past on how to get the most out of your gas. Now we introduce you to a new way to save on those gasoline dollars.
There is a man who fills up his tank once every two months. One tank of gas, literally, lasts him two months. He is freezing the price of gas by freezing something else.
People complain about the price of gas and we are all spending dearly to stay on the road these days. The money we spend on gas seems to burn up faster than the fuel.
While there may be little rhyme or reason to why the prices are on a perpetual roller-coaster, there is one man who has found a way to freeze them in their tracks, literally.
David Hutchison is a Cryogenics expert. He built this Cryo-Process himself. He runs a business out of his garage where he cryogenically tempers all kinds of metals. He submerges them in a frozen tank of nitrogen vapor that is 300 degrees below zero.
David says, “During that time, at minus 300 degrees, the molecules slow down. Then they reorganize themselves. That's when the actual chemical change happens.”
Hutchison cryogenically tempers machine parts, tools, golf clubs and even razors. He says it makes them last three to five times longer.
A few years ago he began an experiment on his hybrid Honda, freezing the engine components. The results were a fuel-efficiency dream.
David Hutchison says, “You should expect a “Cryo'd” engine to last anywhere from 600,000 to 1 million miles without wearing out.”
A hybrid Honda typically gets really great gas mileage anyway, around 50 miles to the gallon, but David Hutchison's cryogenically tempered engine has been known to get close to 120 miles a gallon.
“It's just a very efficient vehicle.” Hutchison says,
Racers have picked up on David's trick of cryogenically freezing car parts. It is now widely accepted among NASCAR and Indy-car racers.
Hutchison has no plans of taking his Honda to the track. His prize is in his pocketbook.
David says, “I thought about selling it, but gas prices keep going up. So, I thought, I'm not going to sell it.”
Hutchison tells us cryogenically tempering car parts has more benefits than just fuel efficiency. He freezes all of the brake rotors at a car dealership near his home in Missouri. It makes them last three to five times longer.
There is a man who fills up his tank once every two months. One tank of gas, literally, lasts him two months. He is freezing the price of gas by freezing something else.
People complain about the price of gas and we are all spending dearly to stay on the road these days. The money we spend on gas seems to burn up faster than the fuel.
While there may be little rhyme or reason to why the prices are on a perpetual roller-coaster, there is one man who has found a way to freeze them in their tracks, literally.
David Hutchison is a Cryogenics expert. He built this Cryo-Process himself. He runs a business out of his garage where he cryogenically tempers all kinds of metals. He submerges them in a frozen tank of nitrogen vapor that is 300 degrees below zero.
David says, “During that time, at minus 300 degrees, the molecules slow down. Then they reorganize themselves. That's when the actual chemical change happens.”
Hutchison cryogenically tempers machine parts, tools, golf clubs and even razors. He says it makes them last three to five times longer.
A few years ago he began an experiment on his hybrid Honda, freezing the engine components. The results were a fuel-efficiency dream.
David Hutchison says, “You should expect a “Cryo'd” engine to last anywhere from 600,000 to 1 million miles without wearing out.”
A hybrid Honda typically gets really great gas mileage anyway, around 50 miles to the gallon, but David Hutchison's cryogenically tempered engine has been known to get close to 120 miles a gallon.
“It's just a very efficient vehicle.” Hutchison says,
Racers have picked up on David's trick of cryogenically freezing car parts. It is now widely accepted among NASCAR and Indy-car racers.
Hutchison has no plans of taking his Honda to the track. His prize is in his pocketbook.
David says, “I thought about selling it, but gas prices keep going up. So, I thought, I'm not going to sell it.”
Hutchison tells us cryogenically tempering car parts has more benefits than just fuel efficiency. He freezes all of the brake rotors at a car dealership near his home in Missouri. It makes them last three to five times longer.
Can anyone explain how this process would yield results like this. Is it due to less heat being made?
11-29-2006, 06:36 AM
#2
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Mmmmmmmmmmmmm,
So he can make a tank of fuel last 2 months??........... so can I if I limit the amount of miles I put on the car on a daily basis.
That a change occurs in the material the engine is made of if it is frozen to -300 degrees is possible but what exactly that change is I would let a metallurgy specialist explain (anyone????).
Is this another 100 MPG carburetor tale??
Jens
So he can make a tank of fuel last 2 months??........... so can I if I limit the amount of miles I put on the car on a daily basis.
That a change occurs in the material the engine is made of if it is frozen to -300 degrees is possible but what exactly that change is I would let a metallurgy specialist explain (anyone????).
Is this another 100 MPG carburetor tale??
Jens
11-29-2006, 07:20 AM
#3
dɐɹɔ ǝɥʇ ʇɐɥʍ
Originally Posted by JensH1963
Mmmmmmmmmmmmm,
So he can make a tank of fuel last 2 months??........... so can I if I limit the amount of miles I put on the car on a daily basis.
That a change occurs in the material the engine is made of if it is frozen to -300 degrees is possible but what exactly that change is I would let a metallurgy specialist explain (anyone????).
Is this another 100 MPG carburetor tale??
Jens
So he can make a tank of fuel last 2 months??........... so can I if I limit the amount of miles I put on the car on a daily basis.
That a change occurs in the material the engine is made of if it is frozen to -300 degrees is possible but what exactly that change is I would let a metallurgy specialist explain (anyone????).
Is this another 100 MPG carburetor tale??
Jens
Cryo treating metal does make it stronger, by aligning he is referring to aligning the austenite and martensite in the strongest configuration, though the metal shrinks a tiny bit upon cryo treatment(which is why a lot of engine kuru's don't use the process). If you want to know more google austenite and martensite and you'll have a basic understanding of the mystery process of what cryo treating does.
As an audiophile, cryo treated tubes typically sound better and always last substantially longer then the same tube not cryo'ed. The same with cabling, cryo treated cables sound better(in most cases), there is even some discussion of cryo treated CD's sounding better... but even I don't buy that one.
Further there are a lot of things that simply should not be cryo treated, so be careful and do your research before you go cryo crazy.
11-29-2006, 10:46 AM
#4
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Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Tireguy
I don't buy his claims for a second... and I am a strong believer in the benefits of cryo. treated metal.
Cryo treating metal does make it stronger, by aligning he is referring to aligning the austenite and martensite in the strongest configuration, though the metal shrinks a tiny bit upon cryo treatment(which is why a lot of engine kuru's don't use the process). If you want to know more google austenite and martensite and you'll have a basic understanding of the mystery process of what cryo treating does.
As an audiophile, cryo treated tubes typically sound better and always last substantially longer then the same tube not cryo'ed. The same with cabling, cryo treated cables sound better(in most cases), there is even some discussion of cryo treated CD's sounding better... but even I don't buy that one.
Further there are a lot of things that simply should not be cryo treated, so be careful and do your research before you go cryo crazy.
Cryo treating metal does make it stronger, by aligning he is referring to aligning the austenite and martensite in the strongest configuration, though the metal shrinks a tiny bit upon cryo treatment(which is why a lot of engine kuru's don't use the process). If you want to know more google austenite and martensite and you'll have a basic understanding of the mystery process of what cryo treating does.
As an audiophile, cryo treated tubes typically sound better and always last substantially longer then the same tube not cryo'ed. The same with cabling, cryo treated cables sound better(in most cases), there is even some discussion of cryo treated CD's sounding better... but even I don't buy that one.
Further there are a lot of things that simply should not be cryo treated, so be careful and do your research before you go cryo crazy.
Was thinking of trying this actually.
Was going to get the
Block
crank shaft
connecting rods
pistons/rings
camshaft/valves/springs
rocker arms
head
main bearings
exhaust manifold
What you think?
I wonder where.
11-29-2006, 11:09 AM
#6
dɐɹɔ ǝɥʇ ʇɐɥʍ
Originally Posted by Crazy Sellout
Was thinking of trying this actually.
Was going to get the
Block
crank shaft
connecting rods
pistons/rings
camshaft/valves/springs
rocker arms
head
main bearings
exhaust manifold
What you think?
Was going to get the
Block
crank shaft
connecting rods
pistons/rings
camshaft/valves/springs
rocker arms
head
main bearings
exhaust manifold
What you think?
11-29-2006, 11:11 AM
#7
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Tireguy
Not a bad idea, the only concern I would have is the slight shrinkage may be bad for the bearing tolerance among other things... you could argue a slightly higher viscocity oil would make up the difference, but then you have increased drag on the crank, etc... and that will hurt fuel economy. The only way I would think of doing this would be if I really wanted an engine for 400k+ miles, and have it cryo'd and then send it to the machine shop so the shrinkage is taken into account for. And even then I can't say it would be worth the extra work or investment.
when you talk this way..I was actually planning on doing it to the 635csi that i picked up. Was planning to do a rebuild and was thinking this process couldnt hurt.
Local place wants $500 to dip those parts in gas nitrogen. Not that bad of a price if it will make the parts last longer.
Last edited by Crazy Bimmer; 11-29-2006 at 11:14 AM.
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11-29-2006, 11:24 AM
#8
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Thread Starter
Local place didnt mention anything about shrinkage and they do race engines and such. But maybe they get everything machined after. Now im worried about that.
How bad we talking?
How bad we talking?
11-29-2006, 12:03 PM
#9
dɐɹɔ ǝɥʇ ʇɐɥʍ
Originally Posted by Crazy Sellout
Local place didnt mention anything about shrinkage and they do race engines and such. But maybe they get everything machined after. Now im worried about that.
How bad we talking?
How bad we talking?
For example on a spool of 25 feet of wire, the wire would shrink about an inch in total length and you could see a very tiny gap between the insultation and the wire under a microscope - which was not there before. Obviously the quality and type of metal will vary in its size change, some metals may only be temporary shrinkage.
Also its best to have a deep immersion cryogenic treatment done over the course of a few days, slowly bring the metal down to as close to 0ºK you can get and then bring it back slowly, there is some thought that this does a more complete job then just dipping a room temperature piece of metal in liquid nitrogen... again I have no clue how this will impact an engine, but have experience with other components... including brake rotors, its not uncommon to have brake rotors cryo treated when they are going to see extreme service.
11-29-2006, 02:21 PM
#10
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Originally Posted by Tireguy
The only concern I would have is the slight shrinkage.
Originally Posted by Crazy Sellout
Local place didnt mention anything about shrinkage.
Originally Posted by Tireguy
The shrinkage is taken into account. [It] may only be temporary shrinkage [or] would shrink about an inch in total length.
Originally Posted by Crazy Sellout
I when you talk this way...
when you talk this way...
11-29-2006, 02:24 PM
#11
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Well, hypothetically speaking, what if cryogenisis does improve fuel economy? When the metal molecules are frozen and become re-aligned, maybe the contacting surfaces become super-smooth on a microscopic level so-much-so that friction is drastically reduced.
11-29-2006, 02:46 PM
#13
The article claims that an over 100% increase in fuel efficiency. Uh huh ...
How about cryo treating a transmission? I've seen it on King Motorsports's website as one of the services they provide. Anyone know what this does for reliability/durability? Any issues with shrinkage on so many moving parts?
How about cryo treating a transmission? I've seen it on King Motorsports's website as one of the services they provide. Anyone know what this does for reliability/durability? Any issues with shrinkage on so many moving parts?
11-29-2006, 05:03 PM
#14
Suzuka Master
Originally Posted by shrykhar
The article claims that an over 100% increase in fuel efficiency. Uh huh ...
I can see how this may enhance an engine's longevity but twice the fuel mileage? :shakeheadBesides, IMO most modern engines can last 100's of thousands of miles if properly maintained.
09-25-2007, 08:40 PM
#15
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Thread Starter
In case anyone was wondering.... it didnt work. 
But I do now have a rebuilt M30 motor. We treated the transmission also and showed no gains either.
Good thing it wasnt my money.
But I do now have a rebuilt M30 motor. We treated the transmission also and showed no gains either.
Good thing it wasnt my money.
09-26-2007, 01:23 AM
#18
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Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Mike
soooooooooo who's $ was it? 
A guy who I work with wanted to do this process and since i wanted to rebuild the 635csi anyways, i said sure.
So he just paid for the process which came out to around $900. He was hoping it would show gains and then he would turn around and start marketing it. Lets just say hes not so happy now. His fault for not doing more research though.
Oh well, the 635csi is up and running now with all new gaskets and runs like a champ.
09-26-2007, 02:26 AM
#19
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maybe it works better with hybrid vehicles? crazy you tried it on your [insert 635csi model code here].
09-26-2007, 05:04 AM
#20
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Sorry I'm late to the game on this one.
I think most people know that racers in NASCAR "dip" their engine parts in nitrogen to make the materials harder so they do not wear as fast. That is a fact.
However, the improved fuel economy would be minimal, at least based upon what I know about engines. If you're seriously going to improve fuel economy, you need to understand thermodynamics and something called the "Carnot cycle". Once you minimize the losses in efficiency, you raise fuel economy. That is the only "proven" way to improve fuel economy. (Well ... that's what I learned in my physical chemistry class in undergrad ...)
Crazy Sellout -- glad you didn't shell out any $$$ on cryo-dipping the engine parts. I would have told you to put that $900 towards mods on the 335.
I think most people know that racers in NASCAR "dip" their engine parts in nitrogen to make the materials harder so they do not wear as fast. That is a fact.
However, the improved fuel economy would be minimal, at least based upon what I know about engines. If you're seriously going to improve fuel economy, you need to understand thermodynamics and something called the "Carnot cycle". Once you minimize the losses in efficiency, you raise fuel economy. That is the only "proven" way to improve fuel economy. (Well ... that's what I learned in my physical chemistry class in undergrad ...)
Crazy Sellout -- glad you didn't shell out any $$$ on cryo-dipping the engine parts. I would have told you to put that $900 towards mods on the 335.
09-26-2007, 07:47 AM
#21
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by Crazy Sellout
Lets just say hes not so happy now. His fault for not doing more research though.
Oh well, the 635csi is up and running now with all new gaskets and runs like a champ.
Oh well, the 635csi is up and running now with all new gaskets and runs like a champ.
At least you got a rebuilt motor out of the deal
09-26-2007, 08:00 AM
#22
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Thread Starter
I dynoed the car before we did the treatment/rebuild. I will be dynoing it again to see if there was any power increase. But i highly doubt it.
I was amazed how well that engine looked after 140k miles though. No sludge at all even.
But yea, i basically got a free rebuild since his cousins and me did most of the labor. OK fine... more his cousins and less me.
I was amazed how well that engine looked after 140k miles though. No sludge at all even.
But yea, i basically got a free rebuild since his cousins and me did most of the labor. OK fine... more his cousins and less me.
09-26-2007, 08:13 AM
#24
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I have heard of people doing this to razor blades and they supposedly last 5 times longer, so I guess it's not impossible for the engine to be 'stronger,' but 120 mpg???
09-26-2007, 09:32 AM
#26
Time to Climb
i met a guy in tampa who owns a cryo company as well. he'd done similar things to his s2000, but didn't mention any gas mileage improvement. maybe that's because he has a turbo motor. he did say, however, that his motor structurally stronger than ever and should last for years to come, even while driving it abusively. his car was featured in one of the tuner magazines (honda tuning, turbo, super street, etc.) but i forget which one
09-26-2007, 11:13 PM
#29
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we started crytoing front brake rotors on our squad. its on a Ford E-350 chasis. before we'd get maybe 2 years out of them at the most. we're on year 5 of this set thats on it i'd say we could probably get another 5 out of em before their gone.
09-26-2007, 11:19 PM
#30
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Hmm, well in my experience, cryogenically treated knives are second to none.
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