Edmunds: What's Wrong At Honda? Maybe Everything
05-30-2010, 11:53 AM
#81
Burning Brakes
Honda hasn't made any exciting cars? What about the NSX, ITR, CR-X, RSX-S (new ITR), and Civic Type-R? While not all of these cars have been introduced to the NA market, Honda always had something for enthusiasts. All they really have now are the S2K (which they're killing off) and the Civic Si which is nothing impressive.
05-30-2010, 12:28 PM
#82
Whats up with RDX owners?
iTrader: (9)
Too many people complaining about every brand these days. I dont ever remember Honda making any exciting cars in the past (excluding S2000)
The 300ZX, Supra and RX-7 were all better than any Honda coupe
The integra and Prelude are slow as shit. Even an Accord coupe can destroy them now. So why continue making them. They will be more expensive than the accord coupe so no one will buy them.
Honda has always been about cheap, fuel efficient and reliable cars. Just because some people were "enthusiastic" about ricing them out doesn't mean they ever built cars for "enthusiasts".
Honda and Toyota have always been lame ass brands and they both continue to be. I have no idea why you people with M3s and CTS-Vs give a crap about Honda
The 300ZX, Supra and RX-7 were all better than any Honda coupe
The integra and Prelude are slow as shit. Even an Accord coupe can destroy them now. So why continue making them. They will be more expensive than the accord coupe so no one will buy them.
Honda has always been about cheap, fuel efficient and reliable cars. Just because some people were "enthusiastic" about ricing them out doesn't mean they ever built cars for "enthusiasts".
Honda and Toyota have always been lame ass brands and they both continue to be. I have no idea why you people with M3s and CTS-Vs give a crap about Honda
The Prelude was just as fast if not faster then the Accord of the same vintage. I had a 94 Prelude VTEC that was bone stock and raced a new Si and beat him. Thats saying alot when a 13 year old car (at the time) thats bone stock could beat Hondas "most exciting car of that time".
Of course the new Accord Coupe 6MT is faster then a 1994 Prelude with a four cylinder.
This is Hondas first passenger car, the S500. It was classified as a sports car.
If Honda never made exciting cars what was the point of the Si models? How about the SiR (not in the NA market)? These cars werent straight line stormers, they were meant for the curves and they handled them well. Talk to any former CR-X owner and I guarantee you that they had the most fun in one, and they regret getting rid of it.
There are plenty of cars that were exciting and Honda replaced them with cars that weren't. Just like Toyota (2000GT, MR2, Supra anyone?).
05-30-2010, 03:38 PM
#83
Honda should go vintage and remake that S500. It looks awesome.
05-30-2010, 03:39 PM
#84
05-31-2010, 11:37 AM
#85
As i said Edmunds wrote article about the wrong company. It would have been better if it was about Toyota, Hyundai and Ford and there cheap products. and Honda products are already dumb down for NA market.
Honda cars in EU and Asia are far more expensive and upscale
Honda cars in EU and Asia are far more expensive and upscale
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/car...cus-first_look
That’s a prevailing view at Ford these days. But it’s also one fraught with difficulty. People will pay $18,000 or more for a Mazda 3 or a VW Golf or a Honda Civic, but that’s because those cars carry so much brand equity. The average transaction price of a Toyota Corolla is less, and a Focus’s is way lower. No matter how good the car is—and Mark Fields, president of Ford of the Americas, says, “We won’t dumb this one down for the U.S.”—will American consumers pay more money for this latest Focus? If a domestic small car has a chance at challenging the Mazda 3 and the Golf, it’s this one.
That’s a prevailing view at Ford these days. But it’s also one fraught with difficulty. People will pay $18,000 or more for a Mazda 3 or a VW Golf or a Honda Civic, but that’s because those cars carry so much brand equity. The average transaction price of a Toyota Corolla is less, and a Focus’s is way lower. No matter how good the car is—and Mark Fields, president of Ford of the Americas, says, “We won’t dumb this one down for the U.S.”—will American consumers pay more money for this latest Focus? If a domestic small car has a chance at challenging the Mazda 3 and the Golf, it’s this one.
05-31-2010, 01:48 PM
#86
Instructor
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: SF Bay Area
Age: 36
Posts: 201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's so pleasing to see the stuff we've been talking about for years show up in the mainstream press, in the form of an extremely accurate and well written article.
06-01-2010, 10:46 PM
#88
Senior Moderator
I agree with the comment that Honda is in FAR better shape than Acura. Honda just needs some better designs and to bludgeon the competition in features + fit/finish like they used to. Acura needs a wholesale renovation to figure out what they are going to be.
Last edited by neuronbob; 06-01-2010 at 10:50 PM.
06-02-2010, 01:20 AM
#89
Burning Brakes
I think more credit needs to be given to the competition. Honda is starting to look more and more stale as most other car manufacturers are coming out with more attractive and innovative products.
You wanted something for the enthusiasts from Honda neuronbob?
Did u think 5 years ago you would be buying a Cadillac that outperforms the Germans?
Like I said, Honda is sticking to the stale old recipe and cant keep up with competition.
You wanted something for the enthusiasts from Honda neuronbob?
Did u think 5 years ago you would be buying a Cadillac that outperforms the Germans?
Like I said, Honda is sticking to the stale old recipe and cant keep up with competition.
06-02-2010, 01:33 AM
#90
Burning Brakes
The Prelude was just as fast if not faster then the Accord of the same vintage. I had a 94 Prelude VTEC that was bone stock and raced a new Si and beat him. Thats saying alot when a 13 year old car (at the time) thats bone stock could beat Hondas "most exciting car of that time".
Of course the new Accord Coupe 6MT is faster then a 1994 Prelude with a four cylinder.
I guess the Civic Si and Accord coupe are now basically replacements for the Integra and Prelude. If they continued making those cars they would have similar numbers to the Accord and Civic so why bother? Atleast the Accord coupe has a V6...can you imagine having the Integra or Prelude in the lineup and both being outperformed by the V6 Accord?
If Honda never made exciting cars what was the point of the Si models? How about the SiR (not in the NA market)? These cars werent straight line stormers, they were meant for the curves and they handled them well. Talk to any former CR-X owner and I guarantee you that they had the most fun in one, and they regret getting rid of it.
There are plenty of cars that were exciting and Honda replaced them with cars that weren't. Just like Toyota (2000GT, MR2, Supra anyone?).
Seems like most manufacturers did the same thing. Like you said the supra was killed, even the Celica and MR2. Also the 240sx, RX-7 and 3000GT. The only one that survived was the Z.
To me the 300zx, RX-7, Supra etc are proper sports cars for enthusiasts. The preludes and Integras were just FWD cars that handled well. They could never outperform any of these REAL sports cars. And if they kept building cars like that eventually people would stop buying them.
06-02-2010, 02:55 AM
#91
Three Wheelin'
I think we need to realize that enthusiasts don't provide profitability. Your average family down the street doesn't care about lateral grip or 1/4 miles, they just care whether or not the accelerator is going to stick and if they can get 30mpg.
And that's the point of the article. While providing niche performance vehicles (CRX, S2000, etc.), Honda's bread-and-butter vehicles usually became the engineering, quality, and sometimes styling benchmark for the maintstream market.
You could count on an update every 4 years for the mainstream models, which helped resale value in the used car market and helped boost new car sales. But the economic downturn plus recent model blunders has Honda straying from this formula (the 2006 redesigned Civic still exists today in its 5th model year).
I don't think the "sky is falling" for Honda as much as the article would lead you to believe, but there's still cause for concern. Especially in the Acura design studio
And that's the point of the article. While providing niche performance vehicles (CRX, S2000, etc.), Honda's bread-and-butter vehicles usually became the engineering, quality, and sometimes styling benchmark for the maintstream market.
You could count on an update every 4 years for the mainstream models, which helped resale value in the used car market and helped boost new car sales. But the economic downturn plus recent model blunders has Honda straying from this formula (the 2006 redesigned Civic still exists today in its 5th model year).
I don't think the "sky is falling" for Honda as much as the article would lead you to believe, but there's still cause for concern. Especially in the Acura design studio
06-02-2010, 07:04 AM
#92
AZ Community Team
, very true the average Honda/Acura buyer are not into numbers. Honda is lost but I agree the sky is not falling. The article did a decent job of pointing out the recent issues at Honda.I think we need to realize that enthusiasts don't provide profitability. Your average family down the street doesn't care about lateral grip or 1/4 miles, they just care whether or not the accelerator is going to stick and if they can get 30mpg.
And that's the point of the article. While providing niche performance vehicles (CRX, S2000, etc.), Honda's bread-and-butter vehicles usually became the engineering, quality, and sometimes styling benchmark for the maintstream market.
You could count on an update every 4 years for the mainstream models, which helped resale value in the used car market and helped boost new car sales. But the economic downturn plus recent model blunders has Honda straying from this formula (the 2006 redesigned Civic still exists today in its 5th model year).
I don't think the "sky is falling" for Honda as much as the article would lead you to believe, but there's still cause for concern. Especially in the Acura design studio
And that's the point of the article. While providing niche performance vehicles (CRX, S2000, etc.), Honda's bread-and-butter vehicles usually became the engineering, quality, and sometimes styling benchmark for the maintstream market.
You could count on an update every 4 years for the mainstream models, which helped resale value in the used car market and helped boost new car sales. But the economic downturn plus recent model blunders has Honda straying from this formula (the 2006 redesigned Civic still exists today in its 5th model year).
I don't think the "sky is falling" for Honda as much as the article would lead you to believe, but there's still cause for concern. Especially in the Acura design studio
06-02-2010, 07:26 AM
#93
Unlike some I usually try to stray away from criticizing moves that make Honda Motor Company money since that is their prime reason for being in business, after all. I do criticize things like styling though.... I'm sorry but when it comes to abominations like the Crosstour and TL, I KNOW they can do better. Why wouldn't they want to? Reworking the grille relatively won't be much work, and you're lying to yourself if you don't think a different, less offensive grille among other styling miscues would have helped Acura sell a few more TLs each month.
I still feel the most empathy for lifelong Toyota enthusiasts. Toyota hasn't thrown them a bone for years and it wasn't til recent years that Toyota/Lexus started to pump some adrenaline into a few models. Badging and bodykits only goes so far if your S model is nothing special compared to the competition. It doesn't get too bad until you look back at the cars and trucks Toyota used to have in the 80's and early 90's, then compare them to now
I still feel the most empathy for lifelong Toyota enthusiasts. Toyota hasn't thrown them a bone for years and it wasn't til recent years that Toyota/Lexus started to pump some adrenaline into a few models. Badging and bodykits only goes so far if your S model is nothing special compared to the competition. It doesn't get too bad until you look back at the cars and trucks Toyota used to have in the 80's and early 90's, then compare them to now
06-02-2010, 10:36 AM
#94
Race Director
Honda realized it made a huge styling faux pas with the rear of the 03 Accord and fixed it at the MMC. I have a feeling some of that will be in the cards for some of the current models. 
06-02-2010, 11:23 AM
#95
they need to realize that cylinder deactivation thing doesn't really increase gas mileage and only hampers performance of the V6 engine and get rid of it. last i heard, it's still going to show up on the revamped Odyssey
06-02-2010, 11:58 AM
#96
My bolonga has a 1st name
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Age: 39
Posts: 2,209
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
granted I've got a heavy foot, and heavy 20" wheels.. but still lol
06-02-2010, 05:54 PM
#97
You'll Never Walk Alone
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Age: 37
Posts: 9,511
Received 841 Likes
on
524 Posts
^Whoa really? Even my 2g TL-S is able to get close to 30mpg on the freeway (trip from Vancouver to Calgary with 4 people + luggage). Well I guess the cylinder deactivation is only there to help improve EPA figures just like turbo....what I mean is that, you only save fuel when you are going easy on the gas pedal. For the cylinder deactivation case, the engine deactivates some cylinders when you are driving like a grandma, without heavy, energy wasting large wheels. For a turbo car, you are only gonna save fuel when the engine doesn't use any boost. If you have a heavy foot, both methods will not give you any advantages in fuel mileage.
Last edited by iforyou; 06-02-2010 at 05:58 PM.
06-02-2010, 06:18 PM
#98
Every car I've driven gets a lot better mileage when on a long (an hour or more) trip... running in closed loop for hours at a time with very little/no idling at a stoplight or accelerating from one can get pretty efficient, even when you're traveling at 75 mph (120 km/h).
If I just pin it at 75 with cruise control and the A/C on and just overtake people without slowing down, I can manage 25 mpg on my V8. Some people have gotten even better. But in regular highway driving I might manage only 22 mpg.
VCM should work in theory but I agree.... it's most likely only to take advantage of the EPA testing procedures.
If I just pin it at 75 with cruise control and the A/C on and just overtake people without slowing down, I can manage 25 mpg on my V8. Some people have gotten even better. But in regular highway driving I might manage only 22 mpg.
VCM should work in theory but I agree.... it's most likely only to take advantage of the EPA testing procedures.
06-02-2010, 06:24 PM
#99
The sizzle in the Steak
VCM is a joke.
06-03-2010, 07:03 AM
#100
Senior Moderator
The beancounters at Honda must have determined that VCM was cheaper to incorporate than IMA.....the latter of which could have made the Ody a MUCH more attractive proposition.
That's horrible. Similar to iforyhou's experience in his TL-S, I did a similar NJ-Va Beach trip in my old 07 AV6 EX-L last year and averaged bet 28-30mpg also with a full luggage load and 4 occupants (plus toddler in carseat).
Too bad it doesnt look like Honda is as ready to abandon VCM as it was IMA when it comes to the J-series.
Originally Posted by 97AcuraCL
the cylinder deactivation is on my accord and i still barely manage 23.9mpg on the hwy.
Too bad it doesnt look like Honda is as ready to abandon VCM as it was IMA when it comes to the J-series.
06-03-2010, 01:50 PM
#102
Whats up with RDX owners?
iTrader: (9)
^ 
06-03-2010, 05:06 PM
#103
hail to the victors
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/06/03/2...-695/#comments
cruze is more expensive than Civic. both malibu and cruze is more $ than accord and civic.
so by your logic
Chevy > honda
06-03-2010, 08:24 PM
#106
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/06/03/2...-695/#comments
cruze is more expensive than Civic. both malibu and cruze is more $ than accord and civic.
so by your logic
Chevy > honda
cruze is more expensive than Civic. both malibu and cruze is more $ than accord and civic.
so by your logic
Chevy > honda
It is more expensive than Civic DX by couple of hundred dollars but where will you find 6MT, Keyless, 10 airbags, traction control, On Star in Civic DX which is 2005 design.
06-03-2010, 11:12 PM
#109
אני עומד עם ישראל
Wasn't SSFTSX an Audi fanboi from way back when???????? I could've sworn I remember him talking up Audi back in the day. Too lazy to delve into his posts...
06-04-2010, 12:03 AM
#110
GM cannot sell car expensive than Honda with similar equiped.
I will not even go into size of incentives that will go into Cruze sales.
Cruze has bigger interior and trunk.
Infact Cruze is more in size of 1G TSX than Civic.
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/finan.../D9G3V7280.htm
The current base model manual-transmission Civic costs $16,405 including shipping, but doesn't have air conditioning.
"While some of our competitors may have a lower starting price, Cruze wins on value once these competitors are optioned up," Jim Campbell, vice president of Chevrolet marketing in the U.S., said in the statement.
The current base model manual-transmission Civic costs $16,405 including shipping, but doesn't have air conditioning.
"While some of our competitors may have a lower starting price, Cruze wins on value once these competitors are optioned up," Jim Campbell, vice president of Chevrolet marketing in the U.S., said in the statement.
06-04-2010, 12:36 AM
#111
Honda creates image of quality in market from start. It is not sign of faltering brand. i can assume there could be several thousand sale of Sedan. much better prospects than Insight in NA market.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/auto/A...e1-552297.aspx
A coming of age ‘luxury’ car
Honda City was the car that launched a company in India. In the process, it became almost synonymous with the company that makes it.
It is only the second car in India to be identified so closely with its maker – Maruti 800 is the other.
The City, as it is commonly called, tops the HT-MaRS Satisfaction Survey.
But its USP could be one that surveys don’t capture — in a society like ours, the car symbolises one’s coming of age.
“I was looking for a car that made me feel good. It was a luxury car without quite being one (it’s a mid-size car – one notch below the Civic). It gives fantastic fuel efficiency, is very comfortable, and gives me an image without bankrupting me,” says Shweta Bhadekar, former deputy country head, IAVI, and consultant, WHO.
That could be the secret behind its longevity and continued popularity. It has been on the roads for more than a decade now and it has been subject to two model changes already, but the country’s fascination with the car refuses to ebb.
“The City is a tried and trusted car across the world and has a huge brand equity in India,” says Shikhar Malhotra, owner of the Ace Honda, a large Honda car dealership and service centre in Noida.
“The car has been the face of affordable luxury in the country for more than a decade and it is an indication that the owner has arrived,” he adds.
There are many factors behind City’s success. The Honda brand ensures top of the line quality, something that has neither been compromised nor bettered by the competition. The company made radical design changes to the car every five years even when the existing car was doing well and each time, the numbers have only gone up.
“I upgraded to the City from a Swift and initially, I was inclined to go for a second-hand one because even a second-hand City is worth the money,” said Rahul Jain, a chartered accountant who bought a new City last year. “But when I heard about the new City, I waited and bought it.”
At a price of more than Rs 8 lakh, the car does not come cheap but many people in middle management positions consider it affordable.
What’s great about the car: Just about everything.
What’s not: A tad expensive, lack of top of the line features
A coming of age ‘luxury’ car
Honda City was the car that launched a company in India. In the process, it became almost synonymous with the company that makes it.
It is only the second car in India to be identified so closely with its maker – Maruti 800 is the other.
The City, as it is commonly called, tops the HT-MaRS Satisfaction Survey.
But its USP could be one that surveys don’t capture — in a society like ours, the car symbolises one’s coming of age.
“I was looking for a car that made me feel good. It was a luxury car without quite being one (it’s a mid-size car – one notch below the Civic). It gives fantastic fuel efficiency, is very comfortable, and gives me an image without bankrupting me,” says Shweta Bhadekar, former deputy country head, IAVI, and consultant, WHO.
That could be the secret behind its longevity and continued popularity. It has been on the roads for more than a decade now and it has been subject to two model changes already, but the country’s fascination with the car refuses to ebb.
“The City is a tried and trusted car across the world and has a huge brand equity in India,” says Shikhar Malhotra, owner of the Ace Honda, a large Honda car dealership and service centre in Noida.
“The car has been the face of affordable luxury in the country for more than a decade and it is an indication that the owner has arrived,” he adds.
There are many factors behind City’s success. The Honda brand ensures top of the line quality, something that has neither been compromised nor bettered by the competition. The company made radical design changes to the car every five years even when the existing car was doing well and each time, the numbers have only gone up.
“I upgraded to the City from a Swift and initially, I was inclined to go for a second-hand one because even a second-hand City is worth the money,” said Rahul Jain, a chartered accountant who bought a new City last year. “But when I heard about the new City, I waited and bought it.”
At a price of more than Rs 8 lakh, the car does not come cheap but many people in middle management positions consider it affordable.
What’s great about the car: Just about everything.
What’s not: A tad expensive, lack of top of the line features
06-04-2010, 09:44 AM
#113
Senior Moderator
Remember folks: It's okay to love/hate Honda...but, keep it civil.
06-04-2010, 01:46 PM
#114
so competition is pretty stuff. about 75% of parts of Honda City/Jazz are sourced from India but still quality and premium price for honda product is there.
India population growth and service growth is much higher than rest of East Asia. There is little chance of Chinese factory workers immigrating to West but flow of IT and service sector middle class from India to West will be higher. and that brand perception of Honda will carry over to Honda and Acura brand in developed world.
Even the smallest Honda will be priced higher in its segment. which companies like Hyundai/Toyota cannot hope. Only VW brand can do it.
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-...EHeadlinesAsia
"India is one of the most important markets for Honda. It offers immense possibilities for future growth," Fumihiko Ike, Honda's chief operating officer in charge of Asia and Oceania, told Dow Jones Newswires separately.
He said also Honda Siel is on track to develop a new small car. "It should be ready for launch by the end of next year. Our car will be positioned above the existing models in this space in India."
Honda unveiled a small-car concept in January this year and the model is expected to go on sale in India and Thailand next year
"India is one of the most important markets for Honda. It offers immense possibilities for future growth," Fumihiko Ike, Honda's chief operating officer in charge of Asia and Oceania, told Dow Jones Newswires separately.
He said also Honda Siel is on track to develop a new small car. "It should be ready for launch by the end of next year. Our car will be positioned above the existing models in this space in India."
Honda unveiled a small-car concept in January this year and the model is expected to go on sale in India and Thailand next year
06-04-2010, 02:10 PM
#115
Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,752
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
< This is the face of a very angry man.
06-05-2010, 04:37 AM
#116
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
06-05-2010, 04:23 PM
#117
AZ Community Team
06-05-2010, 09:02 PM
#118
Whats up with RDX owners?
iTrader: (9)
Thats being generous. The 5MT LX sedan weighs 3230lbs (the coupe is 3221), while the fully loaded EX-L V6 w/ nav comes in at 3600lbs (3446lbs for the coupe)
Hell, the 03 DX sedan w/ 5MT was less then 3000lbs.
Hell, the 03 DX sedan w/ 5MT was less then 3000lbs.
Last edited by civicdrivr; 06-05-2010 at 09:06 PM.
06-05-2010, 09:18 PM
#119
Race Director
Biker, whose 2900lb 99 Accord was plenty big.
06-06-2010, 02:21 AM
#120
Team Owner
Honda
Acura = Lame.
Is acura the only "luxury brand" that doesnt have RWD and Coupe and Convertible ,, oh i forgot and V8
"Beatdeadhorse"
Acura = Lame.
Is acura the only "luxury brand" that doesnt have RWD and Coupe and Convertible ,, oh i forgot and V8
"Beatdeadhorse"
Last edited by oonowindoo; 06-06-2010 at 02:24 AM.