Legend2TL

The RL still fits in the 5-series in terms of size and features with the notible exception of a V8 and 6AT. The TL has been super-sized up to almost a RL. Last time I was at a Acura dealer waiting for tires to be installed, I looked at the TL and RL pretty closely and the RL has superior materials in the interior compared to the TL. The original sales goal of the RL was 20K/year when it came out. I don't remember but I don't think they ever achieved that even when it competed well in it's class. No matter how nice a Seiko watch may be there are still those who want a Rolex, in some ways that applies to the E-class and to a lesser extent the 5-series.

From the May sales thread
Mid Luxury
E Class-5,476 (includes coupes)
5 series-2,289
DTS-2,263 (not mid size but priced like it)
MKS-1,554
M37/56-1,065
A6-784
GS-771
S80-728
STS-441
RL-151
9-5-25

The RL may be a sales failure but with the exception of the DTS and maybe the MKS, none of the others are making much impact in this segment. Remains to be seen how well Hyundai does in this segment.

Legend2TL

That may be but when one says a Honda V6 is coarse and underpowered it just sounds silly, esspecially when Ward's Automotive ranks it in their top-ten motors (including the Hyundai who have done some amazing things in the last decade).

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/car..._2009-car_news

chungkopi

Cadillac > Acura > Lincoln > Buick

but Lincoln and Buick will pass Acura if Acura doesn't get better.

fsttyms1

I never said the V6 was coarse, i was referring to the RDX 4, (which the one i drove wasnt typical honda smooth)

fsttyms1

Business decision? Its a piss poor one if it is.

You dont get it. They are using old tech while every one is advancing. Isnt part of Acura's slogan "Acura Advance"??? Then why are they using a piece if shit (which it is) 5 speed auto, its very heavy, its not efficient (proven by dynos), it only took them 5 years to redesign it enough to keep it from failing every 5 miles, all in the mean time others have been working on 6, speed, 7speed, now 8 speed and the best of them all DSG. Honda is being left out to pasture while they could really be leading



Oh sure,NOW they now have 2 vehicles with it, why didnt the new 4th gen TL get it? what is TAKING so long to get a better trans?

And the BOLD part is it for Acura. It isnt Expanding, adding OPTIONS, different variations to its vehicles. GIVE ME SOMETHING to choose from. Transmission choices, Engine Choices, Drive Train Choices.

And please get rid of the lame designs. There isnt a thing from Acura right now that i would take over a Ford right now in terms of looks.

fsttyms1

I would say Buick has passes Acura now.

chungkopi

Maybe... Buick has the styling edge right now. my only major beef with Acura is the styling. if Acura fixes the design then I think it is still more desirable than Buick IMO. Buick is getting better and better, but I think they aren't completely there yet. but acura definitely can't afford to have anymore design screw ups.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Acura is more prestigious than Buick now but I'd venture to say Buick does the better vehicles overall.

Maybe. They're at least an actual competitor, that's for sure.

smarty666

I tend to agree with you on this one. I don't think Buick is better than Acura yet, but if Acura does not get their act together and stop ffffeeeinng around, Buick will pass them in style, design, features, etc within the next few years and how sad and pathetic will that make Acura look!!! Though I do agree, and never thought as long as I was alive I would say this but, I like the stlye and design Buick is going right now better than what Acura is coming out with! I'm talking exterior design of course, Acura still has really nice, much better interiors then Buick!

At least for me, most of which is due to Buick's seats being uncomfortable for my personal severe low back problems, I would be in with Lexus before Buick anytime soon!

I've been scarred personally from going back to GM after almost 30 years of problem after problem, Chevrolet, Buick, Pontiac, and Cadillac models! Its going to take many many years till I would ever consider going back to GM! I've had such better luck with the Germans and Japanese that I plan on staying with them for the time being!

fsttyms1

The Buick is definitely better looking and quieter than the Acura. Overall quality may not be exactly there yet, but im sure it wont be long.

SSFTSX

I dont think it is piss poor decision. If investment is $2b for new transmission R&D and retooling. and it boost sales by 100,00 a year (BMW/Lexus size). the money cannot be recouped. so they better wait for transmission ready for mass market.
Acura still has best ALG values of all luxury brands. MDX is CR report winner. Acura/Honda has never been defeated in any magazine tests for its class in fuel economy.
just look at MT Honda Fit fuel economy in recent road test.
Honda is No1 world wide in reliability. It has best ROI values. best cash position.
(let see how long BMW survives with few hundred millions of profits and huge lease losses & investment).




It many not be ready for sedans across line up like TSX/Euro Accord.
MDX/ZDX has even upgraded engine with better low end torque and lighter 19inch wheels. it is more like MMC.
Buick products are even lower grade as they are based on OPEL. company not known for any success.

fsttyms1

Huh?? Obviously it gets recouped if the others can do it.

I wouldnt exactly call the new TL a great gas mileage car. Previous versions have gotten better.

And really, what planet are you on that you think manufacturers (like BMW, Hyundai) are going to go out of business because they invest on better products? Honda on the other hand would be more likely by their lack of progress and innovation (not that it will happen, but they would stand a better chance than the other makes)


It should have been ready years ago. That is the whole point. THEY ARE DRAGGING THEIR HEALS.

AND what is this constant talk of lighter 19 inch wheels. You think Acura is the only one with light weight 19" wheels? And for your info the larger the RIM the more power it takes to slow and accelerate the vehicle! I would hardly say any acura has torque to brag about. Hondas have always lacked that.

Buicks arent even lower grade They are built utilizing the chassis. The rest is stuff here. Go sit in the new buick before knocking it (not that it would make a difference to you and your opinion that will never change)

YEH

I guess the Genesis winning all those awards and the Tau V8 making the Ward's Top 10 engine list didn't happen.

True, Acura seemingly has abandoned that goal currently, but at one point Honda had plans in place to move Acura into "tier 1" status (or at least try to).

A luxury brand would consist of the Genesis sedan, an upmarket Genesis coupe, the Equus, a smaller RWD sedan (in development) and probably at least one CUV.

Hyundai and Kia will both remain mainstream brands w/ Hyundai going after Toyota/Honda and Kia going after the more youthful, sport-oriented buyer (Nissan, Mazda).


Among the RWD E segment imports, the Genesis came in 3rd after the E Class and 5 Series for 2009.

Uhh, you do know that it is largely the result of Acura not having (1) $75-$100K sedans, (2) large SUVs/CUVs and (3) coupes and convertibles - which get the greatest depreciation hits.

As for Acura and Buick, Acura's lineup is still superior, but if they don't get their act together, Buick can surpass them.

knavinusa

Just to add to this, if Honda actually has trouble recouping losses by developing a new transmission, why not source one from a company that has already done it, e.g. ZF? Customers that buy luxury cars typically want the newest technology in their cars, and while every other luxury brand is looking for ways to acquire the latest and greatest, Acura is using technology from half a decade ago. The only thing they've been impressing people with are their interiors.

Honda may only like to put technologies they developed in-house into their cars, but if they're serious about creating an image for Acura, they better find a way to catch up.

Legend2TL

The vast majority of auto manufacturers design and fabricate their own transverse gearboxes. Packaging in transverse applications is very tight and requires alot of knowledge of the chassis in order to design. So almost everyone with transverse engines make their own gearboxes.

Longitudinal gearboxes are much easier since only the bell housing, transmission hump in the floorpan and driveshaft are the only major packaging constraints. They can be changed or modified fairly easily, hence the Hyundai Genesis can use two different gearbox suppliers for the V6 and V8 models, Aisin and ZF respectivly.

Legend2TL

Wow, didn't know the Genesis sales were that good. Hyundai have made some. Two friends are considering the Genesis, both had liked the 3G TL but neither like the exterior styling of the 4G.

fsttyms1

The dealers around here (and most places from my understanding) cant keep them in stock (mostly the Black with Chocolate interior and tech package). My dad had a really hard time getting what he wanted, as there wasnt any thing in the country, it was take what he could get or order one and wait months.

SSFTSX

where is the evidence it is recouped?.
Take for example Toyota. It expanded into different markets and different technolgies too aggressively. what happens to there recalls cost and reliablity and image?. there sales are now on deep discounts. and Honda with half the sales have more profits than Toyota. Honda has less debt. Honda has better cash flow. and Honda has better brand imgage through out the World. It is agianst an Auto maker which started 30 years ahead of Honda.
5 speed is not impacting sales of Honda. It is lack of V6/V8 and smaller 1.4 diesel engines that is impacting Honda. If Honda had those diesel engines today. its profits would be some where in region all the the world Automakers combined as it would have offered Global SUV and truck plat forms.
BMW is way down the toilet. when Diamler is forced to join Renault-Nissan-Autovaz alliance it means Diamler cant recoup the costs and Diamler S class and SUV far outsell BMW large cars and SUVs. so if they cant do it so how on earth BMW can do?

If you compare FWD TL with 3G TL Type S. they are pretty indentical and 4G TL is alot bigger and wider car with much stronger body and isolated ride.
Nissan went out of busines and rescuved by Renault. Now times are different once you under your gone for good.



they are saving money.
Acura give you standard 19inch on MDX/ZDX and TL Sh-AWD HPT. it is good good styling value.
This is even funny comparing Buick to Acura who has the highest ALG residual value and best reliability and its Torque vectoring technlogy is as good as Audi if not better as it is implemented in larger cars for sporteir handling.

Legend2TL

One friend has visited two dealers and driven the V6 and V8 but was told at both places the V8 waiting list is many months long especially since he wanted a particular color.

SG81

iTrader: (1)

i also hope honda/acura will build something i like when i'm ready for my next car

fsttyms1

that is the way was (sounds like it still is) when my dad was looking. We went as far as chicago dealers looking. NO ONE had one. The ones coming in on truck were already spoken for. At the time there was only 1 in the country in the combo he was looking for. It was in Seattle

fsttyms1

The Evidence is is that if they werent they wouldnt continue to keep doing it. AND by your bad examples they would be out of business. Do you honestly think Honda is the only one that will survive and be around? Do you honestly think all other brands are going to go under and honda makes the best decisions? If so you need to Wake up and open your eyes.

They arent saving, money, they are loosing it using old tech and take WAY TO LONG to mainstream new stuff.

Quit with the 19" crap. Its a useless point. Maybe if they gave you decent looking and more than one wheel to choose from like BMW and Audi.

Im looking at more than just resale value, im looking at the total package. And right now the Buick in my eyes has more going for it than acura.

fsttyms1

I wouldnt hold my breath. Have you seen their products as of late and the direction they have gone

mrdeeno

No need to hope, they already do...just ask SSFTSX! You should like ANYTHING and EVERYTHING they offer!

fsttyms1

Fixed

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

If Buick builds a hot compact version of their new small car the 1G TSX owners may have to convert.

But BMW is also failing so soon Acura will be king of all.

smarty666

That is exactly what I have been telling myself everyday but I'm not holding my breath on that one. For the near future, it seems they are going to keep the mostly agreed upon odd styling trend and focus on hybrid technology for some of their models!

Here is a great link from insideline in how they outline the next 3-4 years in regards to each Acura model and where they are going according to the mixed information Acura HQs has given!

http://www.insideline.com/acura/future-vehicles.html

After reading this, I found myself a little depressed about Acura's future prospects! They need to do a lot more than just introduce hybrid technologies into some of their models and while the RL is suspected to get a complete redo, it doesn't sound like they are going to put any V8, let alone a fuel efficient high powered V6 into the next one and just add a hybrid to it! SNORE

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

The sad fact of the matter is, Acura has fallen behind in so many areas now, areas they once competed well in. 2004 TSX, 2004 TL, 2005 RL, 2007 RDX, and 2007 MDX all had awesome new interiors with a rich, warm aura and great quality. Now their newest releases, 2008 TSX and 2009 TL, had appeared to take a step in reverse. The 2010 ZDX has some upgrades like leather on some of the dash and so on, but the center stack is still more plasticky looking than the models I mentioned before. Their engines were once some of the strongest in their cases (3.5RL not included), but now they are just barely competitive. Clean styling came and went. It just seems like they don't care about Acura anymore the way they did just a few years ago even.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Speaking of this though, I wouldn't mind it at all if Acura aimed the next RL at the GS450h. I've driven one a couple of times and the eletric motor torque is just awesome, better than a lot of V-8s to be honest.

What I didn't like was the small trunk (but other companies have gotten better at this) and the....CVT....sorry.

If they could fix those two things it'd be like having a turbocharged 3.7 with no lag and more low end. Best of both worlds?

PG2G

Sounds good to me. It will be the debut of their hybrid technology focused on larger cars, hopefully it'll be impressive.

smarty666

who knows, STUPID having to be patient and wait

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

I'm sure not waiting LOL.

smarty666

oh I'm not waiting to either! If by the time my leases are up, and Acura doesn't have something I'm interested in, I'm going else where. Like I've said many times, I don't have any brand loyalty because they all treat you like dirt when you go back to lease or buy something else, its as if your a first time customer all over again!

Costco

You MAY get lucky if the dealership you go to is good, but chances are brand loyalty usually gets you nothing.

PortlandRL

That's funny because Toyota benchmarked the design of their new Avalon on the Hyundai Genesis interior.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...#ixzz0qIa7AuDZ

chungkopi

lol that's funny. honestly i think they bench marked 7-8 year old american truck interior.