TommySalami

Now, can we get the automakers to stop making everything bigger year after year?

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

NSXNEXT

iTrader: (2)

Fools gold.

Moog-Type-S

How can I hate on Honda when they nosedive into the ground their automotive divisions, but give the world this fantastic creation in return??!?!?!

Fibonacci

Just matching up with America's expanding waistline - go where the market is.

Honda's styling has been way off the mark for quite some time, and while everyone agrees with that statement, they must be doing something right given their financial position before, during and after the credit crunch. I still find the Acura lineup palatable enough and more they offer relative value and safety which are higher priorities for me now.

Would I do things differently/better if I was CEO, absolutely.

97AcuraCL

yea they can build that thing but thy can't put a 2door body on a TL.

Type34

Wow this article really did hit the nail on the head (and what this community has been saying for years).

I'm a perfect example of a lost customer - I wanted to either replace our 2006 MDX with a new 2010 model or my BMW 325i with a 2010 TSX. Neither upgrade worked out.

I ended up with a 2010 Mazda 6 for way less than a 2010 TSX, even though I got much more of a vehicle: 3.7L 272hp V6 (87 octane!), navigation (touch-screen!), heated leather, keyless entry, push-button start, blind-spot monitoring system, xenon heads/halogen fogs, 6-spd AT, 18's, real-time traffic, and Sirius/XM for a full 6 months free. Plus it doesn't have a bird beak for a grille

IMO, within the next 5 years, Hyundai becomes the 1980-90s Honda and Mazda becomes the 90s-00s Acura. I become more and more impressed with Mazda's portfolio: CX-9 (MDX), CX-7 (RDX), 6 (TL/TSX), 3 (TSX/Integra), RX-8 (CL), plus they have the timeless Miata MX-5.

(edit:: Mazda becomes 90s-00s Acura product-wise, not necessarily a luxury division)

Add-dee

It truly is sad how long Honda/A have been blind, the last new car i bought was my 02 Civic. only cuz i wanted a car that would last 10 years, obviously WHP was not on my mind then... and i bought a Lexus as my fun car (and boy did i have fun in it)!

tsxgoogs

Haha it looks like a more advanced version of the device from Burn After Reading.

Rockstar21

iTrader: (1)

i agree with almost your entire post..
but miata? timeless? come on...

isnt that the womans/gay mans S2000?

and to everyone else.
eff honda/acura for their decisions lately.

PortlandRL

The only people who bash the Miata are people who haven't driven one...especially the first generation. You can call it a girly car all you want but that doesn't change the fact that when it was introduced in 1989, it was the first pure, back-to-basics roadster since the 1960s. It was a radical, game-changing model that is still having repercussions today. I have driven a 1995 Miata M Edition and fell head over heels madly in love with that car. The shifter is magical, the handling is laser-guided and the performance is great, especially for such a little car.

Cliffs: Drive a Miata before you assume you know everything about them.

97AcuraCL

I'm gonna have to agree..

Miata's are great in their own right... and they really do need to be driven before judging.

I mean as a honda boy I'd never own one over an S2000 esp now that s2000's are so cheap used (i'll never let mine go that is unless i have to for some unfortunate reason) but they're not to be dismissed thats for sure.

neuronbob

Hey, we're criticizing Honda hoping they'll change, not talking about Miatas here.

I love Honda and so want it to pull out of its doldrums.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

^ x2

Honda, if youre listening, bring back the Integra. And I dont mean the name. Bring back its soul. And while youre at it, make a new Prelude too.

Type34

I agree. I actually think Honda is in better position than Acura. While Honda has its challenges and missed the mark on recent models (except the Civic and CR-V IMO), Acura is in worse shape.

While looking to lease a 2010 MDX Advance, I just couldn't see putting down $2K and paying well over $600/mo. The sales manager came out and actually said to me, "Acura is not targeting you as a customer any more. We're looking to capture Mercedes ML and BMW X5 owners who have sticker shock. We've actually done quite well this strategy. Sorry to lose you as a customer."

Guys I'm 35, make a good wage, own a nice home and can afford to have my wife stay home with our baby in Orange County. I'm EXACTLY who they should be targeting...especially being a 3-time Acura owner. Interesting strategy.

Hapa DC5

^ They said that? LOL. What a joke as of recent times Acura has no idea where it's going and what they are taking along with them.

Tier 1, no tier 1, diesel, no diesel, NSX, no NSX, NSX, oh wait no NSX dead for good. V8 RL, no V8 RL. Look we know the economy, cafe, they all take their toll and help mold the direction of a brand, but Acura just seems lost as of late.

Get Acura a low volume halo car, a decent luxury coupe like an SH-AWD Accord, some diesels and hybrids as well. Kill the RL for now or good. Make the TL look decent. Do what Acura did well and built its rep on... Nice looking, value orientated, safe, reliable, sporty, high residuals. Now just add some drive train options, a coupe and a halo car to actually be a little bit more of a rounded "smart luxury" brand.

I could go on, but I'm going to sleep.

Hapa DC5

Mother effing word!

mrmako

Funny, Honda does not market nor sell the Acura brand here in the homeland. Kind of odd, because Toyota (Lexus) does. But Toyota stopped doing dual models, for the most part. The exception being the Toyota Sai, which is the exact replica of the H250. I digress.

Honda sells the Legend (RL) here for ¥6,650,00 ($72,936 at the current exchange rate). And the Inspire (USDM Accord) starts at ¥3,300,000 ($36,194). That is before taxes and mandatory fees. Try being a Honda fan here. There's no way I would purchase one of those. Nissan, Mazda, and Subaru make better cars for less.

Ruby

http://www.autoobserver.com/2010/05/...verything.html

It's unusual for Honda Motor Co. Ltd. to deviate from its rigid model-replacement schedule, particularly for its bread-and-butter volume models such as the Civic. But that's just what the company is doing with the planned Civic replacement, pushing back the car's introduction from this fall until sometime next year.

The next-generation Civic apparently was not on competitive target - and Honda sent it back to the garage for tinkering. Although some analysts and industry insiders think Honda's choice to rejigger the Civic is a positive signal, the fact the Civic has to go back to the drawing board at such a late stage speaks plenty about how far Honda has drifted from its once-indomitable methods.

Honda, which always used to be so good at having its finger on the pulse of the buying public, seemingly has exhausted its famed product-development mojo. Yes, the cars - including the now almost 5-year-old Civic - still sell. The company reversed losses from the global industry downturn and for the fiscal year that ended in March recorded a $2.9-billion profit, a 96-percent surge. Honda maintains a top-drawer quality reputation.

Yet analysts, industry watchers and even Honda loyalists continue to murmur the company is losing its legendary edge for forward-looking engineering and an uncanny ability to apply that engineering in a way that delights customers.

John Wolkonowicz, manager of special projects for the IHS Global Insight North American auto forecasting group, said the reputation Honda earned in the 1980s and 1990s has allowed the company to hover above recent reality in the eyes of the car-buying public.

"The Honda name is still the gold standard in the industry," Wolkonowicz told AutoObserver. "But the fact is, they really seem to have lost it."

Edmunds.com analyst Ivan Dury says Honda so far has averted a precipitous sales slide. Still, consumer shopping consideration for Honda has been down in the first quarter this year at a time when one would expect it to be up in light of rival Toyota's troubles. "Honda's situation has the ingredients for a potentially tragic sales slide. If Honda keeps piling on incentives and sales remain flat or slip, we'll have another story on our hands."

The company delayed the Civic because whatever it had planned for the past four years now isn't right. Understanding of the company's off-message product-development apparently has reached the top chair.

President Takanobu Ito seemed to confirm at last month's Beijing auto show that he's aware Honda has lost a step or three, suggesting the company's engineering and marketing may have become "complacent," and adding his displeasure over the company's loss of U.S. market share in the first quarter this year.

The Civic engineering team may have been scared straight by a rash of new-model miscues that have left its development acumen in question. For one, it had planned the now-delayed Civic to be larger, but many critics contend that's one of Honda's prime problems: the company has been subsituting size for innovation - the latest-generation Accord being the chief example.

More directly, another engorged Civic probably wouldn't compare favorably with the 40 miles-per-gallon highway fuel-economy numbers of new models entering the market, including Ford Motor Co.'s 2011 Fiesta and General Motors Co.'s 2011 Chevrolet Cruze. The best a conventionally powered current-generation Civic can manage is 36 mpg on the highway (the slow-selling Civic Hybrid whirrs out 45-mpg highway rating).

But the reasons Honda delayed the Civic run deeper than just proportions or fuel economy.

"The story here is the new products are not up to par," notes Edmunds.com's Drury. "The redesign of the Civic - one of Honda's three core products along with the Accord and CR-V -- could spell disaster if they get it wrong."

Drury notes Honda's trio of three core models make up more than two-thirds of the brand's sales volume.

"I think they looked at the competition the next-generation Civic will face and realized they weren't top of the heap on several fronts," said Wolkonowicz. He thinks almost all of Honda's recently launched models - including those of its Acura premium-car division - have not been up to the standards of the past, by either engineering or styling measures.

Nonetheless, the Civic delay represents "very positive news for Honda," Wolkonowicz said, adding that the company stopping the Civic program in its tracks seems to be a signal Honda is acknowledging its corporate drift.

"This is the most encouraging news of all," he continued, saying the delay of the Civic is an all-too-rare admission from Honda that the next Civic "isn't perfect, like they (perceive) everything they've done before. I don't think they would have done this five years ago."

But, he cautioned of the Civic delay: "I hope it's a more effective use of a year than Toyota got with the Corolla," when it delayed the U.S. launch of the current-generation Corolla from 2007 until 2008. Toyota said the delay was due to scarce engineering resources and to insure quality, but speculation proposed the launch was postponed to tweak bland styling and other competitive attributes.

Backsliding While Competition Is Gaining

Honda's top-of-the-heap standing for compact cars and midsize family sedans has been assailed on several fronts, most notably from the surging Hyundai/Kia conglomerate - but also from a revitalized Ford and General Motors Co.

But Honda's worst enemy recently seems to have been itself.

Wolkonowicz and other industry analysts point to many of the vehicles Honda and Acura currently have on the road as evidence of the company's foundering ways. Wolkonowicz said Honda's product-development backsliding has led to a "string of losers" after Honda spent years developing what many believed were cars with the best engineering-per-dollar value in the entire industry.

Another analyst said many recently launched Hondas are "sloppily designed, not very good to drive and even worse to look at."

All of those shots could apply to the Insight hybrid-electric vehicle, a car designed to 2010 Honda Insight vs 2010 Toyota Prius - 275.JPGshowcase Honda's technical ability - and prospectively go head-to-head with Toyota's dominating Prius hybrid. But the company's still licking its wounds from the dismal response to the year-old Insight, which came to market with dumpy styling, unexceptional fuel economy and a thorough cheapness in appointments and driving feel.

Customers seem to agree: the Insight found just 6,853 buyers in the first four months of this year, a sales pace that is a fraction of what Honda projected. "It's really not a very good car," IHS Global Insight's Wolkonowicz declared.


There is little reason to believe the Honda CR-Z hybrid coupe derived from the Insight, going on sale in the U.S. this fall, will be any better; European enthusiast-magazine reviews have been politely noncommittal but cannot completely avoid giving the impression the CR-Z, if at least more engagingly styled than the Insight, also is a dud to drive. Edmunds.com's Inside Line drove a Japan-specification CR-Z earlier this year and found it engaging at some level but concluded the car utlimately is not the warm-performance coupe Honda suggested it would be - nor does it live up to the role of sharp-handling CRX successor enthusiasts had projected for it.

Acura Struggles

The waning performance of the Acura upscale division is the topic of almost constant industry speculation, as Acura seems to further alienate its devoted buyers and produce few new ones, searching for a positioning strategy for its front-wheel-drive based luxury cars and crossovers. The brand abandoned its popular (and volume-selling) coupe, its flagship sells in the low hundreds of units monthly and critics insist each new generation of Acura is inferior to the model it replaces.

Edmunds.com's Drury points out that Acura is in the same situation as Honda, relying largely on a few vehicles for the bulk of its volume. The MDX, TL and TSX account for 87 percent of Acura sales. Sales of its other models - RL, ZDX and RDX - are "lukewarm."

Styling Miscues

Honda also has pulled the trigger on a string of stylistic dogs. The original Pilot crossover was bland but fit with the times, but the second-generation Pilot, launched in 2008, looked tired and passe before the first one was sold.

AutoObserver's comment at the time gives perspective to Honda's decision to delay the new Civic: "Launching the new Pilot exposes one of the Japan Inc.'s only flaws: reluctance to backtrack once a course has been set. Maybe after gauging the early reaction, if somebody with power had been able to say, 'This stinks, and we need to try again -- even if it means delaying our precious launch timetable,' the Pilot might have been redeemed."

The styling of the Accord Crosstour has endured near-universal disdain, the aging Ridgeline and Element have never been considered anything other than ugly ducklings and just about every vehicle in Acura's lineup is fanatically unattractive.


It's The Engineering, Stupid

But styling is subjective - and in the case of many esteemed brands, vehicles sell well despite weak or even off-putting styling.

Honda's real problem seems to come from the last place anyone - including those within the company - would expect: unconfident engineering.

For some time, Honda hasn't delivered much of the kind of innovation that once was baked into every new generation of vehicle it launched. Even the hardest of hardcore Honda fanboys admit it: from decisions like discarding double-wishbone front suspension for the Civic to wedging a V6 under the hood of the already too-fat new Acura TSX, Honda's answers of late seem to be little more than me-too solutions.

Honda was the first automaker to introduce a hybrid-electric electric vehicle in the U.S. - but quickly and gave away its leadership to Toyota. How? By sticking with the "mild" hybrid strategy of its Integrated Motor Assist technology, effectively backing the wrong engineering horse. Honda gambled the less-complex and less-expensive mild-hybrid approach - inserted into existing models - was the way to go with hybrids. With the Prius and its more-efficient full-hybrid engineering and a dedicated hybrid styling, Toyota blew past Honda and has never looked back.

And what of Honda's unparalleled reputation for engine advances? The company has assiduously avoided the direct-injection fueling that's fast becoming a standard for other makers. Honda backed away from a plan to make diesel engines one of Acura's technical calling cards.

While rival automakers are turning to high technology to generate more power from smaller engines - once a Honda forte - Honda's march has been to simply make its engines larger (insiders already are saying one change to come from the Civic's delay will be the move to a high-tech "downsized" engine). Other makers have bypassed Honda even in its area of perpetual engine leadership: advanced valvetrain designs.

Honda had long been able to claim being the U.S. market's fuel-economy leader. Hyundai stole away that badge last year.

The same week it acknowledged the plan to re-engineer the Civic, Honda also confirmed a second delay in the production timeline for its high-profile HondaJet corporate jet. HondaJet production now is scheduled for mid 2012, two years later than originally promised.

"It's not going to be so easy for Honda anymore," to maintain its engineering reputation, Wolkonowicz said. "Honda had a kind of superiority complex for many years. It became part of the internal culture. They need to do some soul-searching." - Bill Visnic, Senior Editor

jim165

And bring back NAMES for ALL of their vehicles! Buck convention with these silly alphanumeric names and bring back the Legend...such a strong name and make the car attached worthy of it...

LuvMyTSX

They have certainly missed the mark in a lot of areas. It's frustrating watching them make these mistakes when we know they can do much better. Makes you wonder what is going on there.

Hopefully they take a good, hard look at themselves and figure out what they need to do differently. The hybrid situation should have been a given, though, that's what I don't understand. Who wants to pay extra for a "mild" hybrid? If you're going to make a hybrid vehicle, do it right so it delivers high mpg, not something marginally better than the gas version. Duh.

I just hope they can get back on track before they lose too much of their reputation. It is always much harder to regain your reputation after you've tarnished it, than it is to just keep building on what you already had.

TL1999

V8 will help their ACURA line and i have been asking for it since I brought Acura's

EL19

iTrader: (4)

Wow that article hit the nail on the head and I agree with everyone comments. prelude, Legend, Integra, vigor. All of these names need to resurface. Its not too late to start over Honda/Acura. Just have to do it NOW. Only Honda I would buy new is the one I bought which is my Accord Coupe V6-6MT. I wouldnt buy ANY Acura new.

knight rider

iTrader: (1)

I don't know about the rest of you but this is the line that describes what happened to me:
"...The brand abandoned its popular (and volume-selling) coupe,..."

Here are the list of cars I have owned.
89 Honda Accord LXi Coupe
93 Honda Accord LXi Coupe
01 Acura CLp
01 Acura CLs
...
08 Infiniti G37s
Here is a SAT question. Which one of these cars do not belong on this list?

Yumcha

Honda is like LOST, the TV series...

Rockstar21

iTrader: (1)

i agree with bringing back the "soul" or feel of the integra/prelude/s2000

maybe not try to re-create the models b/c of the likely fail that will happen.
just bring a new model the line thats a step in the right direction.

honda may not make the bulk of their bank off of enthusiast but it sure would take a hit if they all quit buying new vehicles. they need to wake up.

neighbor owned an 04' Mazdaspeed Miata for almost 3 years and i have both ridden in and driven the car.
did i autoX it? no..
did i drive it? yes..
did i play a part in persuading him to Test drive the honda? absolutely
he sold it last year and picked up an AP2.

i'd say i driven the front runner of miata's...does that qualify me to have an opinion?

Anachostic

Well, sort of on-point, the Miata enthusiasts lament the bloat of the later models just as much as Acura enthusiasts do of their models.

elessar

Man, if the new Civic is the first car that's made somebody at Honda/Acura take a step back and say, "Whoa there... let's rethink this a bit!".... that's gotta be one giant f***ing heap of ugly to rival the Pontiac Aztek! I almost wanna see it now, like staring at a train wreck. Hopefully this is a sign that somebody over there has finally woken up.

phile

The current MDX (I prefer the pre-face lift myself, but the MMC changes are impressive) is the ONLY Acura model I'd consider buying as a used purchase.

That's how sad it's gotten. Whereas if money, reliability, weren't an issue, I could look at the lineup from MB, Audi, BMW, etc and pick a handful of models I'd like to buy used.

biker

I have a feeling the delay was not caused by styling - it was more a combination of the competition and 2016 CAFE rules. Ugly may slip by to production (has happened plenty recently) but lame engineering probably much less so.

agranado

What's Wrong At Honda? Maybe Everything

Well fucking duh.

Eoanou

We'll see what the engineers decide to do with the new generation Civic, but I am willing to bet that it'll be larger and itll weigh over 3,000lbs. That'll mark the end of Honda as we once knew it.

SSFTSX

I dont think Honda has lost its way. that ZDX is world class product that will beat anything in its segment and much beyond. it is not easy to give this kind of handling, comfort, quietness and 8 inch ground clearance with fuel economy beating X6 and essentially same quarter mile timings. there is need of product that drives like luxury car but sutiable for offroading. more like A6 All roader.

infact it is its strong brand image that does not need to introduce newer tech that is expensive for long term serviciing. and training dealerships for all kind of technology and parts is expensive in supply chain. Lexus/Toyota dealers has to service more complex engines and transmissions.
Honda is going in opposite way towards simplicity. Honda policy is to give less choice to consumers through more standarized products. so even if one or two products fails like Ridgline or Insight it does not damage the investment as they are offshoots of another mass market.

TommySalami

You think the ZDX is suitable for off roading? There's no need for that, and hardly anyone who is going to be driving a ZDX is going to need 8 inch ground clearance. It only needs to clear the curb in the parking lot at the supermarket.

SSFTSX

there can be uses for it in snow and desert environments. and even big pot holes or up and down streets like San francisco.
BMW 335 coupe is just too low to the ground. a tall person has to bend just to enter it. i am just saying there is market for taller coupes that is not that much expensive than regular coupes once you factor all the standard equipment and best interior.
X6 will cost $80k with 19inch rims and all the equipment of ZDX but interior will still not match ZDX.

so there is utility and style to these kind of vehciles. people buy coupes not for performance only but for style otherwise there wont be any sales of 328coupe or A5 2.0T. it is all about distinctive style than regular sedan.

Legend2TL

The Edmunds article sums it up pretty well. The sub-par IMA hybrid approach, dropping the double wishbone of the Civic for a MacPherson suspension (although that happened a decade ago), recent bold styling (Acura particular), lack of engine development, lack of transmission development, cancellation of the 2G NSX and no replacement for the S2000. All listed pretty well. To me even some of the beloved motorcycles have gone strange in styling and design (CBR1000RR and VFR1200)

What's hard to take is that only 5 years ago, Honda/Acura were doing pretty well. The 3G Odyssey was the best minivan out there, the 3G TL had excellent styling and performance, the 8G Civic was pretty radical in design, MDX and Pilot were great successes. About the only things not selling well were the Ridgeline, Element, and RL. Like some others I think Honda is only lost, they're not as bad as what Chrysler and GM were/are(?). Maybe the new CEO will find their way out of the current state, I really Fukui was going to turn things around.

Part of the problem lies with what occurred at Honda in the 90's. Honda US Marketing were constantly complaining to Japan about the lack of a Minivan and SUV's. The Honda board was annoyed the NSX was consistently losing money, the 2G Legend and some other models had little cross-chassis component sharing so manufacturing costs were higher.

The Honda board normally reserved put forth strong directives for more cost control through cross-chassis parts bin engineering, and more significantly getting a Minivan based on the accord put together. The SUV problem was more difficult since the engineering and operations had zero experience so Honda sucked up their pride and did a rebadging deal with Isuzu for the Passport and SLX.

While the 1G Odyssey was a US disappointment, and the Passport/SLX also a poor stopgap solution. But the Honda board allowed Honda US facilities more design and operations input into corporate Honda. The result of this was the 2G Odyssey and 1G MDX/Pilot both The CRV was a Japan creation but was eventually entered into the US market. Honda went from nothing to having the best in their class SUV and Minivan in only a decade.

Although the cross-chassis scheme worked for the 3G TL, it's approach for the RL not as good. This diversification IMO led to the current larger is better vision for the Acura's and Honda out there. Somehow the original Honda spirit of different solutions to engineering challenges got lost.

SSFTSX

Well no one cares about double wishbone suspension in subcompact to compact cars.
TSX has double wishbone suspension, engine is ULEV II with compression ratio of 11.0. premium is recommended not required.
the latest engine of Hyundai sonata with similar hp is ULEV and 11.3 compression & coarse sound. and no real life fuel economy advantage even with 6speed auto and 150lbs lighter weight. So how any one can claim competition has catched up?.
Japanese built TSX is only $4k more expensive than Sonata limited but with better performance , double wishbone suspension, better syling, better music system and interior.

Honda legend/NSX were not huge seller in 1990s like MDX/TL is now. so why bother with it. TL has moved up market into RL class in price and size.
even ZDX is better seller than NSX.


Honda is still doing pretty well. the most profitable company with best ROI figures as very thing is standardized. Honda US executives are not concern. I am not sure why Edmunds even wrote such a piece. They could have written about Hyundai or Toyota which are debasing there brands with very long warranties, fleet sales and incentives and would have long term cost of dealerships for having too many non standardized products.
I like Honda way. Every thing was 5speed. and now slowly moving towards everything 6speed. no point in 8speed in some and 6speed in another.


Honda needs to concentrate on SUV/Minivans/trucks and subcompacts like Honda City sedan. Fit alone is expensive for hatch. alot of sells is going to Accent/Elantra/Yaris/Versa. since Civic is 175inch and Accord is 195inch. there is space for another Honda sedan of 185inch length with price between Civic and Accord.
Either 2.0L Honda Euro Accord or something styled like VW CC which is 187inch length.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

PortlandRL

Well....SSFTSX found this thread.

Shift_Acura

Too many people complaining about every brand these days. I dont ever remember Honda making any exciting cars in the past (excluding S2000)

The 300ZX, Supra and RX-7 were all better than any Honda coupe

The integra and Prelude are slow as shit. Even an Accord coupe can destroy them now. So why continue making them. They will be more expensive than the accord coupe so no one will buy them.

Honda has always been about cheap, fuel efficient and reliable cars. Just because some people were "enthusiastic" about ricing them out doesn't mean they ever built cars for "enthusiasts".

Honda and Toyota have always been lame ass brands and they both continue to be. I have no idea why you people with M3s and CTS-Vs give a crap about Honda