Edmunds: 1998 Acura Integra Type R vs. 2010 Honda Civic Si
02-23-2010, 01:21 PM
#1
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
Edmunds: 1998 Acura Integra Type R vs. 2010 Honda Civic Si
It's a time capsule Inside Line could drive and test. A perfectly preserved 1998 Acura Integra Type R with just 5,400 miles showing on its odometer and new car smell still wafting through its interior. Recently disinterred from somewhere deep in the climate-controlled bowels of American Honda's Torrance, California, headquarters, it's undamaged, unmodified, unmolested and almost flawless. And it's quite likely the nicest Integra Type R left on Earth.
We beat the snot out of it.
By now, virtually all its brother Type Rs have been ruined with stupid modifications, stolen, salvaged and ruined again. But this one is hermetically sealed-in-a-mayonnaise-jar-underneath-Funk-&-Wagnalls-front-porch awesome. Except for the fresh oil in the Type R crankcase, it's pure 1998.
It was an Acura service-training vehicle and, until Acura decided to sell it earlier this year, it was never titled. When it was made available to American Honda employees for purchase, more than 100 of them signed up for the privilege of buying it. Gary Robinson, an old friend and the new head of Acura Public Relations, won the lottery. And then he made the mistake of mentioning his purchase to us over lunch.
Heck, we'd have settled for a whip around the block. But he let us test it and put a couple hundred miles on its barely used odo. And for some contemporary context, we also borrowed a 2010 Honda Civic Si coupe equipped with Honda's "FP" Factory Performance parts.
The Type R is still the performance standard against which all other small cars must be judged.
This isn't a comparison test in the traditional sense simply because comparing a new car to one that's more than a decade old is just plain stupid, but comparisons are inevitable.
All of us who drove an Integra Type R back then (it made it to America in the 1997 model year) still remember it as the best-handling front-drive car ever built. But memories are fuzzy, fungible things created in the crucible of their moments.
The questions are: Has the Type R's moment passed? And just how far has Honda small car performance come since Bill Clinton was smoking cigars in the Oval Office?
We decided to find out.
One Change, Just One
For safety's sake, Inside Line ordered up a new set of tires for the Type R before testing. The car's spooky preservation meant the original Bridgestone Potenza RE010 were still wrapped around the white wheels. That's fine for museum display, but 12-year-old tires dry out and one of our goals was to survive the test.
Unfortunately, Bridgestone doesn't offer the RE010 in the Type R's dinky 195/55R15 size anymore, so Tire Rack recommended the Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec as the closest substitute. Like the RE010, Tire Rack classifies the Z1 Star Spec as an "Extreme Performance Summer" tire and it's both the highest rated tire of its type by Tire Rack customers and the best seller in its category. We asked Tire Rack to shave 3/32nds of tread off the new Dunlops to simulate the break-in miles that we couldn't put on them.
That Tire Rack was able to not only shave the tires but get them to us in just two days is dang near a miracle of logistics.
Old School Done Right
By 21st-century standards, the Integra Type R is hopelessly archaic. Forget the dinky, body-color wheels. Look at how thin those A-pillars are — no airbags in there. That cowl barely comes up to your knees, the steering wheel has dorky horn buttons on its spokes, the radio head unit is pure Pep Boys and the slider-based ventilation controls would look at home in a '48 Ford.
But there are plenty of elements to the Integra design that made us nostalgic. The instrumentation is all in one single, easily scanned pod directly in front of the driver, the front seats mold well to any body, the shifter is perfectly positioned and feels directly connected to the five-speed transmission, and that low cowl means lots of greenhouse glass for better visibility. Yeah, the tall deck spoiler knocks out a bunch of rearward vision, but the Integra otherwise remains a paragon of ergonomic virtue.
And with the Civic Si parked next to it, the Integra looks absolutely tiny. The Integra's 172.4-inch overall length, 101.3-inch wheelbase and 51.9-inch height are all 3.1 inches shorter than the Civic coupe's dimensions. At 66.7 inches wide, it's 2.2 inches slimmer than the Honda. On Inside Line's scales, the Type R weighed in at a svelte 2,598 pounds — 270 pounds less than the Civic Si.
So the Civic Si is a full NFL defensive end — say, Jared Allen of the Vikings — heavier than the Integra.
Hard-Core Hardware
It had been almost nine years since anyone at Inside Line had driven a stock Integra Type R, but once inside it was love again at first sit. There never have been many cars as closely tailored as the Integra Type R and there are fewer of them now than there were then. Compared to today's thickly insulated tubs, getting into an old Integra is almost like swinging your leg over a motorcycle or mounting a horse. You feel somehow exposed, as if the doors weren't there at all.
Turn the key — and it's a real bare key — and the Type R's hand-massaged 1.8-liter B18C5 engine rocks to life. Sound deadening had been stripped from the Type R to cut weight, and sometimes the engine sounds like it's revving in your lap. Rated at 195 horsepower, it's down a mere two ponies from the 2.0-liter K-series power plant in the Civic Si. And it makes that 195 hp at a wailing 8,000 rpm — 400 rpm short of its redline. This car is unquiet in the best possible way.
Getting to that 8,400 means tipping into the accelerator pedal, and that means reliving the sensation of a real mechanical throttle cable. This isn't a pedal hooked up to a rheostat that's sending a signal to some computer, but rather a thick steel cord that works against a spring on a throttle body. It's an honest difference you feel in your big toe. And it's a sensation we all miss.
More Hard-Core Hardware
There's never been a better front-drive shifter than the Integra Type R's and it's just as good as we had remembered it. The gates are distinct, the effort is light and the shifter movement is instinctive. You mold your hand to the shifter so you can feel all the mechanical bits whirring away in the engine bay through it.
This thing might have a license plate on it, but it has the personality of racecar. And its direct mechanical connection with the driver is made even more special by the abundance of electronically disconnected machines sold today.
The Type R's engine produces virtually no low-end torque. And even at its 7,500 rpm torque peak, it's only making 130 pound-feet of twist. It wasn't built to go drag racing. It was made for the driver who knows how to keep an engine boiling while squirting from corner to corner.
By any measure, the Civic Si's bigger, 197-hp engine is more civilized and better composed than the Type R's. Its idle is less raucous, it builds engine speed with less vibration and it's much quieter at its 8,000-rpm redline than the Type R is at its redline. What they have in common is that distinct moment when the VTEC variable valve timing system kicks in and engine speed gets frantic. Despite the Si's great exhaust note, its engine simply doesn't invite the involvement the Type R's does.
Hard-Core Driving
The Type R's steering is taut and the front tires feel sutured to the pavement. Some of this is due to the double-wishbone front suspension that was once every Honda's most distinctive engineering feature. More of it is due to the lightweight wheels and tires and mechanical power steering.
The Civic Si's steering ratio, at 13.62:1, is actually quicker than the Type R's 16.1:1 rack-and-pinion, but it's numbed by the electric power steering system to which it's attached and the heavy 18-inch wheels this car was wearing. It's nonetheless very good. It just pales in comparison to the old Type R.
In fact, on the slalom course the Civic Si bit into the pavement with better initial turn-in than the Type R. That's likely a function of its slightly wider (215/40ZR18) Dunlop SP Sport tires and quicker steering. Both cars have a helical limited-slip differential working for them through the corners. But the Type R's chassis offers more feedback and much better manners.
The Civic Si is fast through the slalom at 69.7 mph with the stability control turned off. The old Integra Type R, however, is absolutely scalding. With no stability control to turn off, it blasted through the slalom at a stunning 71.8 mph. That's just a little bit better than the last Porsche Boxster S we tested and it's more than 3 mph faster than a 2010 Camaro SS. Some exotics and the Corvette ZR1 will beat it through the slalom, but not much else.
More Hard-Core Driving
Throw in 0.92g of stick on the skid pad (the Civic Si only managed 0.88g) and the Type R rises to the very top rank of performance cars. This is the best-handling front-drive car Inside Line has ever tested — it just happens to be 12 years old.
The Integra also outstopped the Civic, despite its tiny 15-inch wheels and tires and much smaller 9.5-inch-diameter front brake rotors (the Civic's measure 11.8 inches). The Type R stopped in an astonishingly short 110 feet from 60 mph; that's 14 feet shorter than the Honda could manage.
The Type R kicked its ass at the drag strip, too. The Integra's 6.8-second 0-60-mph clocking and 14.9 seconds at 95.2 mph quarter-mile performance also handily beat the Civic Si's 7.5-second 0-60 time and 15.4 seconds at 92.5 mph bests. That's almost all due to the extra weight the Civic is lugging around.
Yes, the Integra Type R will buzz annoyingly on the freeway. Naturally the suspension is balanced more for performance than comfort. Of course the Civic Si is an easier car to live with every day in virtually every way. But the Type R is still the performance standard against which all other small cars must be judged.
The Acura of Acuras
There's simply nothing in the current Acura lineup that comes close to being as mechanically engaging as the Integra Type R (or the late, great NSX, for that matter). All-wheel drive, silken V6 engines and computer controls are still poor substitutes for a perfectly tuned chassis, a spellbinding engine and a direct connection between driver and car. When the Integra Type R was new, it was the embodiment of everything we all hoped Acura would be.
If Acura ever decides to go searching for its soul, it's downstairs in Gary Robinson's parking spot.
We beat the snot out of it.
By now, virtually all its brother Type Rs have been ruined with stupid modifications, stolen, salvaged and ruined again. But this one is hermetically sealed-in-a-mayonnaise-jar-underneath-Funk-&-Wagnalls-front-porch awesome. Except for the fresh oil in the Type R crankcase, it's pure 1998.
It was an Acura service-training vehicle and, until Acura decided to sell it earlier this year, it was never titled. When it was made available to American Honda employees for purchase, more than 100 of them signed up for the privilege of buying it. Gary Robinson, an old friend and the new head of Acura Public Relations, won the lottery. And then he made the mistake of mentioning his purchase to us over lunch.
Heck, we'd have settled for a whip around the block. But he let us test it and put a couple hundred miles on its barely used odo. And for some contemporary context, we also borrowed a 2010 Honda Civic Si coupe equipped with Honda's "FP" Factory Performance parts.
The Type R is still the performance standard against which all other small cars must be judged.
This isn't a comparison test in the traditional sense simply because comparing a new car to one that's more than a decade old is just plain stupid, but comparisons are inevitable.
All of us who drove an Integra Type R back then (it made it to America in the 1997 model year) still remember it as the best-handling front-drive car ever built. But memories are fuzzy, fungible things created in the crucible of their moments.
The questions are: Has the Type R's moment passed? And just how far has Honda small car performance come since Bill Clinton was smoking cigars in the Oval Office?
We decided to find out.
One Change, Just One
For safety's sake, Inside Line ordered up a new set of tires for the Type R before testing. The car's spooky preservation meant the original Bridgestone Potenza RE010 were still wrapped around the white wheels. That's fine for museum display, but 12-year-old tires dry out and one of our goals was to survive the test.
Unfortunately, Bridgestone doesn't offer the RE010 in the Type R's dinky 195/55R15 size anymore, so Tire Rack recommended the Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec as the closest substitute. Like the RE010, Tire Rack classifies the Z1 Star Spec as an "Extreme Performance Summer" tire and it's both the highest rated tire of its type by Tire Rack customers and the best seller in its category. We asked Tire Rack to shave 3/32nds of tread off the new Dunlops to simulate the break-in miles that we couldn't put on them.
That Tire Rack was able to not only shave the tires but get them to us in just two days is dang near a miracle of logistics.
Old School Done Right
By 21st-century standards, the Integra Type R is hopelessly archaic. Forget the dinky, body-color wheels. Look at how thin those A-pillars are — no airbags in there. That cowl barely comes up to your knees, the steering wheel has dorky horn buttons on its spokes, the radio head unit is pure Pep Boys and the slider-based ventilation controls would look at home in a '48 Ford.
But there are plenty of elements to the Integra design that made us nostalgic. The instrumentation is all in one single, easily scanned pod directly in front of the driver, the front seats mold well to any body, the shifter is perfectly positioned and feels directly connected to the five-speed transmission, and that low cowl means lots of greenhouse glass for better visibility. Yeah, the tall deck spoiler knocks out a bunch of rearward vision, but the Integra otherwise remains a paragon of ergonomic virtue.
And with the Civic Si parked next to it, the Integra looks absolutely tiny. The Integra's 172.4-inch overall length, 101.3-inch wheelbase and 51.9-inch height are all 3.1 inches shorter than the Civic coupe's dimensions. At 66.7 inches wide, it's 2.2 inches slimmer than the Honda. On Inside Line's scales, the Type R weighed in at a svelte 2,598 pounds — 270 pounds less than the Civic Si.
So the Civic Si is a full NFL defensive end — say, Jared Allen of the Vikings — heavier than the Integra.
Hard-Core Hardware
It had been almost nine years since anyone at Inside Line had driven a stock Integra Type R, but once inside it was love again at first sit. There never have been many cars as closely tailored as the Integra Type R and there are fewer of them now than there were then. Compared to today's thickly insulated tubs, getting into an old Integra is almost like swinging your leg over a motorcycle or mounting a horse. You feel somehow exposed, as if the doors weren't there at all.
Turn the key — and it's a real bare key — and the Type R's hand-massaged 1.8-liter B18C5 engine rocks to life. Sound deadening had been stripped from the Type R to cut weight, and sometimes the engine sounds like it's revving in your lap. Rated at 195 horsepower, it's down a mere two ponies from the 2.0-liter K-series power plant in the Civic Si. And it makes that 195 hp at a wailing 8,000 rpm — 400 rpm short of its redline. This car is unquiet in the best possible way.
Getting to that 8,400 means tipping into the accelerator pedal, and that means reliving the sensation of a real mechanical throttle cable. This isn't a pedal hooked up to a rheostat that's sending a signal to some computer, but rather a thick steel cord that works against a spring on a throttle body. It's an honest difference you feel in your big toe. And it's a sensation we all miss.
More Hard-Core Hardware
There's never been a better front-drive shifter than the Integra Type R's and it's just as good as we had remembered it. The gates are distinct, the effort is light and the shifter movement is instinctive. You mold your hand to the shifter so you can feel all the mechanical bits whirring away in the engine bay through it.
This thing might have a license plate on it, but it has the personality of racecar. And its direct mechanical connection with the driver is made even more special by the abundance of electronically disconnected machines sold today.
The Type R's engine produces virtually no low-end torque. And even at its 7,500 rpm torque peak, it's only making 130 pound-feet of twist. It wasn't built to go drag racing. It was made for the driver who knows how to keep an engine boiling while squirting from corner to corner.
By any measure, the Civic Si's bigger, 197-hp engine is more civilized and better composed than the Type R's. Its idle is less raucous, it builds engine speed with less vibration and it's much quieter at its 8,000-rpm redline than the Type R is at its redline. What they have in common is that distinct moment when the VTEC variable valve timing system kicks in and engine speed gets frantic. Despite the Si's great exhaust note, its engine simply doesn't invite the involvement the Type R's does.
Hard-Core Driving
The Type R's steering is taut and the front tires feel sutured to the pavement. Some of this is due to the double-wishbone front suspension that was once every Honda's most distinctive engineering feature. More of it is due to the lightweight wheels and tires and mechanical power steering.
The Civic Si's steering ratio, at 13.62:1, is actually quicker than the Type R's 16.1:1 rack-and-pinion, but it's numbed by the electric power steering system to which it's attached and the heavy 18-inch wheels this car was wearing. It's nonetheless very good. It just pales in comparison to the old Type R.
In fact, on the slalom course the Civic Si bit into the pavement with better initial turn-in than the Type R. That's likely a function of its slightly wider (215/40ZR18) Dunlop SP Sport tires and quicker steering. Both cars have a helical limited-slip differential working for them through the corners. But the Type R's chassis offers more feedback and much better manners.
The Civic Si is fast through the slalom at 69.7 mph with the stability control turned off. The old Integra Type R, however, is absolutely scalding. With no stability control to turn off, it blasted through the slalom at a stunning 71.8 mph. That's just a little bit better than the last Porsche Boxster S we tested and it's more than 3 mph faster than a 2010 Camaro SS. Some exotics and the Corvette ZR1 will beat it through the slalom, but not much else.
More Hard-Core Driving
Throw in 0.92g of stick on the skid pad (the Civic Si only managed 0.88g) and the Type R rises to the very top rank of performance cars. This is the best-handling front-drive car Inside Line has ever tested — it just happens to be 12 years old.
The Integra also outstopped the Civic, despite its tiny 15-inch wheels and tires and much smaller 9.5-inch-diameter front brake rotors (the Civic's measure 11.8 inches). The Type R stopped in an astonishingly short 110 feet from 60 mph; that's 14 feet shorter than the Honda could manage.
The Type R kicked its ass at the drag strip, too. The Integra's 6.8-second 0-60-mph clocking and 14.9 seconds at 95.2 mph quarter-mile performance also handily beat the Civic Si's 7.5-second 0-60 time and 15.4 seconds at 92.5 mph bests. That's almost all due to the extra weight the Civic is lugging around.
Yes, the Integra Type R will buzz annoyingly on the freeway. Naturally the suspension is balanced more for performance than comfort. Of course the Civic Si is an easier car to live with every day in virtually every way. But the Type R is still the performance standard against which all other small cars must be judged.
The Acura of Acuras
There's simply nothing in the current Acura lineup that comes close to being as mechanically engaging as the Integra Type R (or the late, great NSX, for that matter). All-wheel drive, silken V6 engines and computer controls are still poor substitutes for a perfectly tuned chassis, a spellbinding engine and a direct connection between driver and car. When the Integra Type R was new, it was the embodiment of everything we all hoped Acura would be.
If Acura ever decides to go searching for its soul, it's downstairs in Gary Robinson's parking spot.
02-23-2010, 01:42 PM
#4
Senior Moderator
Still love the car and regret not buying one back in 97. (Settled for a GS-R instead) Hate to get into Honda bashing again but they haven't come very far as far as performance goes in 12 years.
02-23-2010, 01:55 PM
#5
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
02-23-2010, 02:10 PM
#6
The sizzle in the Steak
Honda has lost it's soul....
02-23-2010, 02:36 PM
#7
AZ Community Team
Kinda sad to read, the one thing I always take away from old/new car comparisons is the weight.
When the curb weight is 2,598 pounds you save on better power/braking/handling, wish modern cars could go on a diet to get there but with safety and size everything has to go up unfortunately.
Nice read, Honda/Acura should retain the vehicle for future benchmarks.
When the curb weight is 2,598 pounds you save on better power/braking/handling, wish modern cars could go on a diet to get there but with safety and size everything has to go up unfortunately.
Nice read, Honda/Acura should retain the vehicle for future benchmarks.
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02-23-2010, 03:14 PM
#10
Time to Climb
i read this article around 745 this morning and it's been reverberating in my head all day ... what must honda/acura do to bring the magic back? i don't believe an nsx or s2000 replacement would do the trick.
i thought the latest iteration of the civic si would do the trick, but it requires premium gas and weighs entirely too much.
WHAT ARE YOU GONNA DO, HONDA?
i thought the latest iteration of the civic si would do the trick, but it requires premium gas and weighs entirely too much.
WHAT ARE YOU GONNA DO, HONDA?
02-23-2010, 03:37 PM
#11
Senior Moderator
AWESOME article, thanks for the post.
Dammit, I wanted one of those back in the day. The 3G TL is the closest Honda/Acura came to fulfilling the role of the Type R in the 'oughts.
Hondas for driving enthusiasts
Would someone PLEASE bring back the Honda/Acura we all loved in the 80's and 90's? *snif*
--No Legend. No Integra. No NSX. No S2000. Lame Civic Sis. What hope for the future?
Dammit, I wanted one of those back in the day. The 3G TL is the closest Honda/Acura came to fulfilling the role of the Type R in the 'oughts.
Hondas for driving enthusiasts
Would someone PLEASE bring back the Honda/Acura we all loved in the 80's and 90's? *snif*
--No Legend. No Integra. No NSX. No S2000. Lame Civic Sis. What hope for the future?
02-23-2010, 03:45 PM
#12
The sizzle in the Steak
i read this article around 745 this morning and it's been reverberating in my head all day ... what must honda/acura do to bring the magic back? i don't believe an nsx or s2000 replacement would do the trick.
i thought the latest iteration of the civic si would do the trick, but it requires premium gas and weighs entirely too much.
WHAT ARE YOU GONNA DO, HONDA?
i thought the latest iteration of the civic si would do the trick, but it requires premium gas and weighs entirely too much.
WHAT ARE YOU GONNA DO, HONDA?
Why?
...because Honda does not want to be an enthusiast car company.
They want to build cars for the masses....and sell the "green" car motive too.
02-23-2010, 03:51 PM
#13
This is way beyond Honda/Acura now. They have seen the path that Toyota has taken and unfortunately is making steps every day to go in that direction. The article describes exactly how I'd compare the new Si to an ITR.
Everyone should go out and drive a Type-R if they know someone who has one. It was hard to believe it was so different from my old LS when you pushed it, but it was. And those seats are still some of my favorite factory seats ever, up there along with the Evo X seats. The Si is a really great car, and its certainly easier to live with than the ITR. But ultimately when you compare the two, the Si just seems like a smoother, but toned down, chunkier version of the ITR.
We will NEVER see another car like the ITR, especially not from Honda. Those days are long past them.
Everyone should go out and drive a Type-R if they know someone who has one. It was hard to believe it was so different from my old LS when you pushed it, but it was. And those seats are still some of my favorite factory seats ever, up there along with the Evo X seats. The Si is a really great car, and its certainly easier to live with than the ITR. But ultimately when you compare the two, the Si just seems like a smoother, but toned down, chunkier version of the ITR.
We will NEVER see another car like the ITR, especially not from Honda. Those days are long past them.
02-23-2010, 06:23 PM
#14
A comparo with a JDM Civic Type-R (FD2) would be interesting. 225 hp, 2800 lbs. Too bad Honda thinks there's more money to be made making fat US-specific cars for fat burger-munching Americans, and the market's proven them right so far.
Is that a hydraulic power steering pump I see? There must have been a reason why they skipped the EPS.
Is that a hydraulic power steering pump I see? There must have been a reason why they skipped the EPS.
02-23-2010, 06:32 PM
#15
That's one gripe I have about the S2000.... it's lacking in steering feel which is paramount IMO in such a car. I don't know for certain since I don't have much experience with them, but I'm pretty sure an EPS assist motor is more reliable and it's impossible to develop issues like leaks or whines in EPS assist systems. But I'll take the bad with the good anyday in that case.
02-23-2010, 06:37 PM
#16
Disinformation Terminator
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Bigger, safer, more features.
That's where your "old" Honda has gone.
Let's be frank; in comparison to 90% of Honda's US customers, we're a fringe bunch here on AZ that talk about things like throttle response, crisp turn-in, shift lever action and the like.
You can't blame Honda for engineering more safety into their cars, and that means more weight. Add to that the need to keep up with their competitors in the features race, and you add more weight still. Drive-by-wire throttle systems enable more dynamic slip-control systems to help keep folks out of the ditch.
Lastly, as a model develops over time it usually gets incrementally bigger. Moving models upmarket and then slotting in a new entry-level model is a tried and true strategy on both sides of the pond.
At the end of the day, I do wish companies like Honda would give us more true performance models. Cars along the line of the UK Type-R Civic, or stripped-out lightened up versions of current offerings. Make them limited editions, I don't care. I personally have never EVER needed a sunroof in a car, there's 30lbs. right there. NAV in a trackstar type car like the old Type-R? Forget it. Power seats? Negative. Do you need a 8 speaker stereo? No again. Get rid of some sound deadening. And on and on.
But if they build it would you really buy, or would you say you want one but it doesn't fit in with the lifestyle of having kids, a dog, etc.?
That's where your "old" Honda has gone.
Let's be frank; in comparison to 90% of Honda's US customers, we're a fringe bunch here on AZ that talk about things like throttle response, crisp turn-in, shift lever action and the like.
You can't blame Honda for engineering more safety into their cars, and that means more weight. Add to that the need to keep up with their competitors in the features race, and you add more weight still. Drive-by-wire throttle systems enable more dynamic slip-control systems to help keep folks out of the ditch.
Lastly, as a model develops over time it usually gets incrementally bigger. Moving models upmarket and then slotting in a new entry-level model is a tried and true strategy on both sides of the pond.
At the end of the day, I do wish companies like Honda would give us more true performance models. Cars along the line of the UK Type-R Civic, or stripped-out lightened up versions of current offerings. Make them limited editions, I don't care. I personally have never EVER needed a sunroof in a car, there's 30lbs. right there. NAV in a trackstar type car like the old Type-R? Forget it. Power seats? Negative. Do you need a 8 speaker stereo? No again. Get rid of some sound deadening. And on and on.
But if they build it would you really buy, or would you say you want one but it doesn't fit in with the lifestyle of having kids, a dog, etc.?
Last edited by TheMirror; 02-23-2010 at 06:40 PM.
02-23-2010, 06:54 PM
#17
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
yeah they've lost its soul... but ther are making money by doing that so... 
02-23-2010, 06:59 PM
#18
You'll Never Walk Alone
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To be fair, it IS a Civic Si, not a Civic Type R. I mean, the current Civic Si is much better than the previous version (that "minivan" with only 160hp).
And yes shrykhar, the FD2 Type R uses hydraulic steering.
IMO, Honda hasn't really "lost its soul." The FD2 is the proof for that. Just like the DC2 Type R, the new CTR is still pretty hardcore. It uses hydraulic steering, no sound deadening material, stiff springs, brembo brakes, no power mirrors, no spare tire, Torsen LSD, no folding rear seats, aluminum front bumper beam, highly tuned engine, resin coating on the inner surface of the intake manifolds. It still has a very slick shifting gearbox, still has a very rev happy engine, it still performs like a race car, no torque steer...and the list goes on and on. Performance wise, it's miles ahead of the DC2 Integra Type R. For instance, it's 2-3 seconds faster than the ITR on Tsukuba (1:07 to 1:08, vs 1:09 to 1:10). How much is 2-3 seconds on that track? Well, the R35 GTR is also 2-3 seconds faster than a NSX-R.
The only sad part is, it's not available to us. Perhaps it's also sad that they don't offer as many "fun" cars now as before. And clearly, Honda has made some weird decisions at times, but we must recognize they are quite successful in terms of doing business.
And yes shrykhar, the FD2 Type R uses hydraulic steering.
IMO, Honda hasn't really "lost its soul." The FD2 is the proof for that. Just like the DC2 Type R, the new CTR is still pretty hardcore. It uses hydraulic steering, no sound deadening material, stiff springs, brembo brakes, no power mirrors, no spare tire, Torsen LSD, no folding rear seats, aluminum front bumper beam, highly tuned engine, resin coating on the inner surface of the intake manifolds. It still has a very slick shifting gearbox, still has a very rev happy engine, it still performs like a race car, no torque steer...and the list goes on and on. Performance wise, it's miles ahead of the DC2 Integra Type R. For instance, it's 2-3 seconds faster than the ITR on Tsukuba (1:07 to 1:08, vs 1:09 to 1:10). How much is 2-3 seconds on that track? Well, the R35 GTR is also 2-3 seconds faster than a NSX-R.
The only sad part is, it's not available to us. Perhaps it's also sad that they don't offer as many "fun" cars now as before. And clearly, Honda has made some weird decisions at times, but we must recognize they are quite successful in terms of doing business.
02-23-2010, 09:36 PM
#19
One on the right for me
If i ever get the room for another car I'd go back to the Integra. I had one in college and bought one of the Type R motors/transmission from Japan to drop in it. I also set it up with the 5-lug suspension/brakes/wheels. It was a damn fast car and very fun to drive. I really miss it.
The only reason why I wouldn't hunt down an original Type R is because I really liked the 4-door integras.
The only reason why I wouldn't hunt down an original Type R is because I really liked the 4-door integras.
02-23-2010, 09:46 PM
#20
If i ever get the room for another car I'd go back to the Integra. I had one in college and bought one of the Type R motors/transmission from Japan to drop in it. I also set it up with the 5-lug suspension/brakes/wheels. It was a damn fast car and very fun to drive. I really miss it.
The only reason why I wouldn't hunt down an original Type R is because I really liked the 4-door integras.
The only reason why I wouldn't hunt down an original Type R is because I really liked the 4-door integras.
I noticed one thing about former Integra owners is that they always have an interest in getting another or they miss it in some way. Says a lot about the car. I can only imagine how satisfying it is to own an ITR too, but I don't know if I could sleep at night, even if it was parked in a secure garage.
02-23-2010, 09:48 PM
#21
One on the right for me
My next project was the front end swap. Just didn't have the time to take care of it.
I'll try to hunt down some pictures. It was before I had a really good camera so there wasn't much with the car.
I'll try to hunt down some pictures. It was before I had a really good camera so there wasn't much with the car.
02-23-2010, 09:55 PM
#22
One on the right for me
Found pics, but only when the engine was out of the car. I have a picture of the car with the wheels on it but I don't need to shit up this thread with it. The white wheels actually don't look really good on a green car, I can't believe I liked them.
If I do pick up another one I think I'll stick with the American wheel size. Finding tires for the japanese wheels was a fucking pain. And they were god damn expensive.
If I do pick up another one I think I'll stick with the American wheel size. Finding tires for the japanese wheels was a fucking pain. And they were god damn expensive.
02-23-2010, 11:57 PM
#25
Great article!
I bought a brand new Type R in 1998 off of the showroom floor (1 mile on the odo.) and it was one of the best cars I've owned to date. It really was a well built machine, from the high revving B18C5, the LSD tranny, and five bolt lug suspension, in the short amount of time I owned it, this car was an absolute joy to drive. Plus, during that time in the import scene owning the Type R put you into an exclusive class all its own, probably like owning some rare exotic or something, at least that's what it felt like to me. It was a sad day when I had to sell it and even today I'm always on the prowl looking for #168. I know I'll never find her but I know someday I will own another Championship White Integra Type R.
If I had a scanner I'd post some pics, I'll see what I can do.
I bought a brand new Type R in 1998 off of the showroom floor (1 mile on the odo.) and it was one of the best cars I've owned to date. It really was a well built machine, from the high revving B18C5, the LSD tranny, and five bolt lug suspension, in the short amount of time I owned it, this car was an absolute joy to drive. Plus, during that time in the import scene owning the Type R put you into an exclusive class all its own, probably like owning some rare exotic or something, at least that's what it felt like to me. It was a sad day when I had to sell it and even today I'm always on the prowl looking for #168. I know I'll never find her but I know someday I will own another Championship White Integra Type R.
If I had a scanner I'd post some pics, I'll see what I can do.
02-24-2010, 12:42 AM
#27
I don't do well with ultimatums, I'll just leave it at that.
Plus, I loved building cars and modifying them as much as possible. When I bought the Type R I felt bad about doing any mods to it (I only changed the suspension with some H&R components), it seemed sort of sacreligious to touch a perfectly engineered machine. Not sure if it's denial, but this mind set eased the blow of when I had to get rid of it. After I sold it that next year in '99, I began an EG LS/Vtec Turbo project, that's a whole other story.
Plus, I loved building cars and modifying them as much as possible. When I bought the Type R I felt bad about doing any mods to it (I only changed the suspension with some H&R components), it seemed sort of sacreligious to touch a perfectly engineered machine. Not sure if it's denial, but this mind set eased the blow of when I had to get rid of it. After I sold it that next year in '99, I began an EG LS/Vtec Turbo project, that's a whole other story.
02-24-2010, 07:06 AM
#28
Senior Moderator
You're right, not many of us on this forum would buy that car today. But what about the kids who will. What did we move to after we outgrew our Civic/Integra/Prelude etc...likely another Honda product. What's Honda luring people in with today? The Si while a nice car faces much stiffer competition than the those Honda's of the past did. They used to lead the sport compact segment. Now they're following.
Having said that today's Si is a nice little car. I was at the Honda dealer yesterday and someone was taking delivery of a black Si sedan. I couldn't help but feel a little jealous.
Last edited by dom; 02-24-2010 at 08:05 AM.
02-24-2010, 07:30 AM
#29
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
You're right, not many of us on this forum would buy that car today. But what about the kids who will. What did we move to after we outgrew our Civic/Integra/Prelude etc...likely another Honda product. What's Honda luring people in with today? The Si while a nice car faces much stiffer competition than the those Honda's of the past did. They used to lead the sport compact segment. Now they're following.
Having said that today's Si is a nice little car. I was at the Honda dealer yesterday and someone was taking delivery of a black Si sedan. I couldn't help but feel a little jealous.
Having said that today's Si is a nice little car. I was at the Honda dealer yesterday and someone was taking delivery of a black Si sedan. I couldn't help but feel a little jealous.
. Honestly, the Si's saving grace (of sorts) is the sedan model which I would not mind having as a second vehicle. (The coupe does NOTHING for me.) In and of itself, it's a great sporty compact sedan.That notwithstanding (and even though I have a fairly strong Nissan/Honda bias), I'd much rather have an MS3 over the Si (even with consideration of the MS3's strangely styled frontend).
And I still shake my head when I consider that ridiculously priced Mugen Si.
Honda must've had midlife ricers in mind with that product.
Last edited by dom; 02-24-2010 at 08:05 AM.
02-24-2010, 08:11 AM
#30
Senior Moderator
GTI, MS3, WRX....there are a few cars I'd take over an Si today. Namely because 197HP/138 lb-ft just isn't enough anymore in a car that weighs almost 3K.
I wonder if Honda looks at the Mugen Si as a mistake on their part or as a reason to longer offer a Type R product in NA because it won't sell... I seriously hope its the former.
I wonder if Honda looks at the Mugen Si as a mistake on their part or as a reason to longer offer a Type R product in NA because it won't sell... I seriously hope its the former.
02-24-2010, 08:31 AM
#31
Q('.')=O
iTrader: (1)
Integra Type-R ftw!
I knew someone back in high school who had a yellow Type-R and what did he do? He traded it in for a single cab F-150 pickup truck! First thing I thought was WHAT THE FUCK?! Apparently going 'mudding' was more important...
I still kinda miss my Integra, even though it was an LS
I knew someone back in high school who had a yellow Type-R and what did he do? He traded it in for a single cab F-150 pickup truck! First thing I thought was WHAT THE FUCK?! Apparently going 'mudding' was more important...
I still kinda miss my Integra, even though it was an LS
02-24-2010, 08:52 AM
#32
What Would Don Draper Do?
Integra Type-R ftw!
I knew someone back in high school who had a yellow Type-R and what did he do? He traded it in for a single cab F-150 pickup truck! First thing I thought was WHAT THE FUCK?! Apparently going 'mudding' was more important...
I still kinda miss my Integra, even though it was an LS
I knew someone back in high school who had a yellow Type-R and what did he do? He traded it in for a single cab F-150 pickup truck! First thing I thought was WHAT THE FUCK?! Apparently going 'mudding' was more important...
I still kinda miss my Integra, even though it was an LS
02-24-2010, 09:46 AM
#33
In the Mid-South meow
iTrader: (2)
Interesting read. I still think my '88 CRX Si was the best handling FWD car I've ever driven. A 1900lb curb weight really made the 108 hp engine feel fast, even though it really wasn't a "fast" car. The 'teg must feel so much faster than it is with it's weight to hp ratio.
02-24-2010, 11:15 AM
#35
One on the right for me
I don't do well with ultimatums, I'll just leave it at that.
Plus, I loved building cars and modifying them as much as possible. When I bought the Type R I felt bad about doing any mods to it (I only changed the suspension with some H&R components), it seemed sort of sacreligious to touch a perfectly engineered machine. Not sure if it's denial, but this mind set eased the blow of when I had to get rid of it. After I sold it that next year in '99, I began an EG LS/Vtec Turbo project, that's a whole other story.
Plus, I loved building cars and modifying them as much as possible. When I bought the Type R I felt bad about doing any mods to it (I only changed the suspension with some H&R components), it seemed sort of sacreligious to touch a perfectly engineered machine. Not sure if it's denial, but this mind set eased the blow of when I had to get rid of it. After I sold it that next year in '99, I began an EG LS/Vtec Turbo project, that's a whole other story.
02-24-2010, 03:39 PM
#38
Disinformation Terminator
Join Date: Jun 2005
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the new CTR is still pretty hardcore. It uses hydraulic steering, no sound deadening material, stiff springs, brembo brakes, no power mirrors, no spare tire, Torsen LSD, no folding rear seats, aluminum front bumper beam, highly tuned engine, resin coating on the inner surface of the intake manifolds. It still has a very slick shifting gearbox, still has a very rev happy engine, it still performs like a race car, no torque steer...
02-24-2010, 04:20 PM
#40
Punk Rocker
Don't know about you guys but I LOVED my Civic Si. It was a sweet handling car with a free-revving engine and had lots of tech for its pricepoint (mine had nav). The intake noise at VTEC switchover in that car was phenomenal (to this day my favorite intake sound) and I personally loved the two-tier dash design; kind of a poor-mans HUD.
Don't get me wrong, the ITR was awesome too, but I would buy my Civic Si again over an Integra any day of the week...
My Civic Si the day I brought her home (May 2006):
Don't get me wrong, the ITR was awesome too, but I would buy my Civic Si again over an Integra any day of the week...
My Civic Si the day I brought her home (May 2006):
Last edited by majin ssj eric; 02-24-2010 at 04:23 PM.