badboy

Don't forget the GS400.

afici0nad0

http://www.lewrockwell.com/edmonds/edmonds128.html

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articl...horsepower.htm

2 of very many articles on horsepower wars...

DownUnder

Compare it to the class it belongs to:

2006 XJ Super V8 - 2006 S55 AMG: http://www.edmunds.com/apps/nvc/edmu...op=3&tab=specs


2006 Jaguar XJ8 - 2007 Mercedes-Benz - 2006 Lexus LS 430 - 2006 Audi A8 - 2006 BMW 750i: http://www.edmunds.com/apps/nvc/edmu...op=3&tab=specs

As you can see the XJ sedan under cuts it's competitors in weight by a good margin.

CLpower

So the XJR doesn't belong being compared to the E55 and M5 which are all in the same price range???? That's how the mags have always compared it. And that's how it was brought up into this conversation.

I think this is a much better comparison then the one you did


XJR - M5 - E55 (and there aren't the 20K price differences from your S55-XJ Super V8 comparison)

http://www.edmunds.com/apps/nvc/edmunds/VehicleComparison;jsessionid=GZhb14jJNy1Ck1c6sQnbf hQ6Rjnt1wjDrvqvZtWyXRGTk2RXc8p3!1494095806?styleid =100541983&styleid=100650117&styleid=100578819&max vehicles=5&refid=&op=3&tab=specs



I also think the Base XJ should be more compared to the E class, and 5 series, and the A6 (not the S class, and 7 series) but that's just me. Cars are all in the same price range (well all are with in 10K of each other, as opposed to the 20K differences w/ your first comparison)


but nice try at completely trying to sway shit to show you are right

CLpower

http://www.edmunds.com/apps/nvc/edmunds/VehicleComparison;jsessionid=GZbTTh9PSL8WHn1lcWNYG sCNqyLwW1fwhr4pP2k3tgcvWwGXz6rp!1494095806?basesty leid=100541973&styleid=100574347&styleid=100548788 &styleid=100645497&styleid=100578757&maxvehicles=5 &refid=&op=3&tab=specs

XJ8 - LS430 - A6 - 550i - E500

how do you get these fucking links to work correctly

it is still the lightest in these comparisons, but not by much at all


Regardless, Jag needs to step up the power

jwong77

Mclaren F1(this one came later), Ferrari F40, Lamborghini Countach, Ferrari Testarossa, need I say more?

CLpower

you forgot the 959

Nicky Pass

For imports, the twin turbo Supra is the king.

srika

jwong77

ahh yes, that was the slant nosed porsche, correct? 450 hp @ 6500RPM from a 3 litre 6 in 1986..... What a car!

DownUnder

Before yes they compared the XJR to the M5 and E55, but that was when the S-type R didn't exist. Now that there is an S-type R it is a direct competitor to the M5 and E55 moreso then the XJR.

Good comparison, but not good enough. It's S-type R - M5 - E55.


The XJ sedan dimension is much bigger then those you mentioned, and is in another class. When was the last time you saw a comparo with the XJ8 compared to those mid lux cars? Cause I haven't seen any.


How am I swaying shit? Like I said before the XJ is lighter amd in some case much lighter then it's competiton from XJ8, XJ Super V8, XJR and you're still arguing that it weighs almost the same as the others. You're the one that's trying to pass off like you are right.

DownUnder

Now that we can both agree on.

Maximized

Umm. Porsche

srika

imports = Japanese cars. I know, makes no sense, I mean German cars = imports too.

Maximized

Imports= Imported in the USA.

Porsche had the 911 Turbo, which was more powerful than the Supra. Or even the 959

GreenMonster

Flat head ford...

srika

umm.. in its initial reference in this thread, "imports" = Japanese cars. "Imports" as in, the generic term.

synth19

I probably should read the entire thread, but I remember reading about a "gentlemen's agreement" that the Big 3 in Japan honored...something about not going over 300hp? Rumor? True?

MSZ

There used to be one, they limited engine output to 276hp(280ps).

Honda Legend(RL) was the first car to break the rule.

Right now, cars like STi Limited, IS350, Fuga, Crown Athlete, 350Z etc. all have outputs over 300ps.

Maximized

Is a Porsche, BMW, Audi, or Lotus etc. not an Import? People don't use the term "imports" correctly. That's not my fault

phile

I'm pretty sure I remember it was Nissan who "officially" broke the so-called gentlemen's rule in Japan, not Honda. Otherwise, it's debatable, as I've been told the NSX, though rated 290hp, actually had more. Same for the Nissan GT's and Toyota Supra's.

vishnus11

what part of AVERAGE is hard to understand? and Altima = Camry, Accord competitor

TL-S = BMW competitor

CLpower's comparison of a fully loaded Altima costing within 4k of a TL-S in 02 doesn't make sense IMO - a loaded Camry costs more than a BMW 325i - doesn't mean they compete in the same class.

I'd have to give a nod to the cars of the early to mid 90's - specifically the import sports cars - 300ZX TT, 3000GT VR4, Supra TT, and I'm surpised nobody mentioned the RX-7 TT. All great cars, that even today would school many performance cars in a straight line. Also the Legend Coupe deserves mention for a 6 speed manual and 230hp in 1993. Wow.

A lot of folks have mentioned the 959 and the F40 and the F1 etc. - the thing is though, you EXPECT these cars to have ludicrous amounts of HP and be insanely fast. What you don't expect is your grocery getting Altima in 02 to have 240hp, 4 doors, 5 seats, and a manual tranny for 24k. Fast forward to today, and you can pick up and nice big american sedan (ala 300 SRT-8) that costs 40k and will blow the doors of many sports cars. Now thats a golden age of HP.

As a sidenote: I still can't get over the fact that a Mercedes S600 will blast to 60mph in 4.2 freakin seconds! Long live the hp wars

srika

btw you know the S600 has been that fast since '03 model year, right?

srika

I know I've seen em reviewed before... here are a few quickly, scanning on Google...

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...t-rockets.html

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....4&print_page=y

http://carpoint.ninemsn.com.au/car-review/ce4935.aspx

not surprisingly, the S-Type finished dead last.

MSZ

Not true at all, GT-R(since R32) and NSX(included NSX-R)were rated 280ps officially.

Of course as we know they are more powerful than that in real life.

Honda Legend officially broke it in 04.

CLpower

touché


however, many have also compared it to the S4, M3, C55 Which I think is more the S-Type R's competition. Regardless Jag is out classed in any situation

MattT516

I agree with Nicky Pass on this one - it has to be the real horsepower wars that began with Chevrolet, Ford, and Pontiac going into the 1990's. Trans Am WS6 vs Camaro SS vs Mustang Cobra - let the best company win. This isn't even mentioning the Corvette and Viper in this equation, of course. Then again, the Viper could be the reason for all these horsepower wars, with Chevrolet trying to make bigger motors to catch Dodge.

I don't see something like the Toyota Supra TT, Nissan 300ZX TT or the Mazda RX7 spawning this horsepower revolution, simply because the Japanese have always gotten their power from smaller displacement and mostly forced induction. American companies love their big motors - their Hemis, their LS1's, their 8.0L's in the trucks. How many Japanese cars do you know out there with over 350 horsepower? Yup.

I like this topic - very subjective.

MattT516

And also, why would anyone be talking about the VQ35 as being revolutionary because their cars were pushing out 240 horsepower? Does anyone remember that Pontiac has been running the same stupid 3.8L supercharged motor that pushes out 240 horsepower in their Grand Prix GTP for almost a decade? The 1996 Chevy Impala SS ring a bell? It's always been the Americans that have put the bigger engines in with the globs of horsepower, and it always will be that way.

vishnus11

When the American's do it, more often than not, its not a complete package (i.e. big motor in a piece of shit, at least somewhat true of the 90's).... so I guess people don't really take notice.

Even today, you could say that a Pontiac Grandprix GXP or a Impala SS have V8's and are family sedans, and would desamate (sp?) all, but they really don't offer a complete package i.e. they can't handle competently for example.

Sorry, kinda off topic, back to hp wars!

EDIT: Srika: had no idea that the older S600 was that capable to!

CLpower

Can the japanese cars handle competently? Nope. Have you driven either of those cars you just dissed to see how they drive? Doubt it

Ken1997TL

I've driven a Grand Prix GXP, I was quite surprised. It just needed a better interior

vishnus11

I just admit that like Ken I have only driven the GXP but only the one with the 3.8 V8 (240hp I think). I can only imagine what 63 more hp and loads more torque would do to exacabate the readily apparent torque steer that was apparent in the model I drove.

Like I said, its not just handling. Like Ken said, the inteior is

But back to the topic...

Maximized

I drove a new GT rental 3 weeks ago and was impressed. The handling of the car was great. The chassis reacted well under transition and provided great feedback. The only problem chassis wise is that the brake feel was off. Take into account that it's an 18 year old chassis which GM has been refining over the years.

The car looks good IMO, but the interior uses cheap materials. If they upgraded the interior, it would actually be a great all around car. A 5 or 6 speed Auto would help too.

F23A4

That was my understanding also.

F23A4

Indeed.

I pressume that appearing on Ward's top 10 engines "forever" does a LOT for this legacy of the VQ35 being the renowned player that it is. And, much has to be said for a naturally aspirated VQ35DE being able to mimic the power delivery of blown 3800s and LT1s while providing a refined motor with decent fuel economy.

(Even a number of Cobra guys on SVTPerformance.com have confessed that they would love to have a VQ powered Altima as their daily driver. That says quite a bit about the impact of the VQ.)

That said, it is subjective as to accurately assert the origin of the current power wars. FWD-wise (and IMHO), the 1998 Honda Accord V6 (J30A1) was the first in its class (FWD Asian family sedans) to hit the 200hp mark stateside. (The Maxima-190hp, Camry V6-188hp and 626 V6-170hp came up a bit short, although the VQ30DE Maxima repaid its driver with more torque than the rest.) And Honda could have easily thrown down the gauntlet (so to speak) with the immediately forthcoming 225hp/214lb-ft J32A (3.2TL). )

As far as the supersedans go, I still recall the original E28 M5 being the premier sports sedan for the sporting yuppie who needed some the occassional practicality that could not be accomplished in the typical M5 stablemate at the time: a Porsche 911 Targa. BMW has been at it since!!!

Chief F1 Fan

I'm thinkin' the muscle cars of the 60's like the GTO, Camaro, Challenger, Charger, and the like. Not current cars by any stretch, not the last 20 years anways.