vishnus11

So obviously we're currently experiencing the golden age of hp - i just read a review of an S600 rippin to 60mph in 4.2 seconds for crying out loud! I've been wondering what you guys think on which car/make started the HP wars of today.

I've read that the introduction of the previous gen M5 with 400hp really set things alight in the sport luxo sedan world. Personally, I think it was the introduction of the '03 Audi RS6 - it came outta nowhere with a twin turbo V8, 450hp, and ripped to 60 in just 4.5 seconds. I would also say that the E55 AMG set the stage alight.

When it comes to you average FWD sedan, I think that the 02 Altima really set the bar with 240hp from its VQ.

Any inputs?

bkknight369

I think its due to affordable cars with high HP...perhaps the re-introduction of Hemi's into sedans? Pocket rockets such as the SRT4?

Fossil_TL

it all started with new S4 vs M3.

CLpower

yea, that's when it started


IMO it started w/ in the early 90's when the Corvette ZR1, 300ZX TT's, Supra's, 355's, 3000GT's, vipers, and nsx...hit the shore. Since then, they have been trying to outdo each other, and have gone up every year.

Also remember, the E60 M5 was released in order to keep up w/ mercedes E55 they brought over in 1999, then, 400 HP was a lot. I'd say that's when the sedan HP war started. You could even say the Impala SS of 94-96 played a big factor in the popularity of this type of car. The M5 had been produced since the 80's but didn't pick up popularity in the states till it's release in 2000.

CLpower

it wouldn't have been the 2002 TL Type S that had 260 from it's J30 before the Altima was released?

bigman

This didnt start it, but the shit hit the fan when Chrysler Dropped the SRT Bomb with the Charger, 300 and Magnum putting down over 400 horses for under 40 grand.

CLpower

vishnus11

SRT-8's are a SCREAMIN performance bargain

dom

When I think HP wars I think Nissan.

MSZ

I think the 92 Integra GS-R started it all.

fdl

Ya, the G35 upped the ante in the sedan, and others had to quickly follow suit.

I also think the WRX played a role in moving things alont too.

pebe

The WRX was on top with 227 hp for a minute. I think it snowballed from there. Also depends on what price category we are talking about. The WRX was the most powerful car under 30k (I think) for a little while. Then the SRT 4 came out.

CLpower

you guys make it sound like you are 17 years old and hadn't heard of cars before 2002, you really think these are the cars that started the modern day HP wars?

I mean hell, even pontiac was making 240 HP FWD cars back in 97

dom

The 93 (I think) Camaro/Firebird @ 275 really upped the Pony car HP wars. The 02 Altima most definently was responsible for the family sedan HP wars.

Ken1997TL

I remember being a young kid and reading about the NSX with 270 hp from a V-6.. jaw dropping.

Now I'm not saying Acura started it, but the NSX was definitely one of the vanguard players. Acura's mistake was to sit on its laurels and be content letting the competition go by..

Look at the Legend Coupe LS in 1993, 230 hp and a 6 speed manual. And it got replaced by the RL...

CLpower

no

CLpower

Yea, when my first visions of it starting were in 93 when Motor Trend did that big shootout w/ the ZR1, Viper, NSX, 300ZX, Supra, 3000GT, and RX7, I even think the old fox body Cobra R was included. I can't tell you how many times I had read that issue. I remember driving down the freeway being like 12 years old pointing out supra's to my father cause I thought they were the best car in that shootout

CLpower

no way IMO, esp. since there were already cars there with it from a few other manufactures. As mentioned, Pontiac had one since 97 that matched the altima in 2002. Hell even the TL Type S was released before the Altima if I'm not mistaken. Even then, while it didn't have competition, I still say the Impala SS started the family sedan power craze.


By the time the Altima came out, they didn't have any choice but to do atleast what they did, esp. since 4 bangers were putting out good power, it was only natural that w/ the advancements in technology that a semi performance V6 should be 230+ minimum. Hell, the legend V6 in the sedans from 93-95 were close.


But again, just my opinions

dom

When I say Family sedan my definition includes the Accord, Camry, Altima, Taurus, Malibu, Impala. The Pontiac I think your reffering to is the Bonneville which had a SC 3.8L?? Not really a family sedan IMO, nor is the TL.

CLpower

Bonneville, and grand prix. How were they any less of a family sedan then those mentioned, esp the TL? 4 doors, trunk, all priced about the same (the TL was on the high end, but wasn't any different then a loaded altima) . And w/ that, the Impala had the same motor w/ a HP increase in theier SS model. What about the legend?

Ken1997TL

Well the 2nd gen Legend was in the mid 30's to low 40's. Pricey.

CLpower

true, but it was also from 1993-95, that's my point. it's only natural that 10 years later manufacturers shouldn't have a hard time matching the power, let alone to call them the creaters of the HP wars.

dom

I guess it depends on what you consider competition to the Camry, Accord, Altima and Taurus. The Altima IMO set the bar in this group.

CLpower

Hmm, you mean the Taurus that was rated at 220 back in, get this, 1991 Or maybe the one that went up to 235 in 1996



I'm sorry, but saying the altima set the HP bar for it's time is pure idiotic to me, but again, just my opinion. Esp. considering they used a motor they were already getting more power out of in other applications.

It was also only a must to do considering cars were gaining weight so quickly

subinf

Probably didnt start it but the E55, XJR, M5 seemed to kick it off for the luxury cars in the late 90's.

fdl

When your every day standard grocery getting altima is pumping out 250HP (or whatever it is) that was a significant step forward. Alot of other companies had to keep up, Honda included.

mattg

what about the '01 CL-S w/ 260 hp?

edit - yes I know it's not a sedan, but what does that have to do w/ anything?

Ken1997TL

How many horses did the early 90's Maxima have? Around 190?

mattg

yup, then they went up to 222hp.

MSZ

160, 190hp version of the same engine was available in 92.

As I said in post #10, GS-R was the car that started it, it had more hp than some of the V6s at that time.

dom

See, that I didn't know. Just figured since the latest Taurus was putting out 200HP that was its highest ever output.

Maybe I'm being ignorant but as far as relevant cars went, the Altima set the bar at that time, in that category. Do you think Nissan was thinking of the 1991 Taurus when they oput the 3.5L in there? No, they were thinking of the Accord and Camry.

CLpower

there were other companies who were direct competition already doing it. Keep in mind, you are also talking about a motor in the honda they had been using since 1997 w/ the J30A1, you really think their next go at it wouldn't been about the same as the altima whether it was around or not?

CLpower

this is what I think there were thinking. "Our cars now weight 3500 lbs, where before they were under 3000. We have a V6 in other cars that's producing great power, let's dumb it down a little bit and put it in our family car. The technology is there, we can't produce anything less then 250 HP; and hell, the americans have been putting big motors from their big cars into family sedans for a long time. We atleast have to give it a whole 25 more HP then our Maxima has"


I don't think either the camry or the accord were a big reflection to them as they knew a redesign of both was about to follow. I think it was natural progression.

It would actually have been hard for any of these manufacturers to make LESS power given what they are working with.

dom

Makes sense. So back to the original question, when IYO did the HP wars start and what was THE car to set it off? It appears they started a few times over the last 2 decades.

CLpower

have you read any of my posts?

There wasn't 1 car that set it off IMO. What you also have to remember is the HP wars have been strong in europe, just most of us couldn't get the cars. You also have to remember cars from the 80's like the little Omni Turbo and Shelby Daytona


In all honesty, I think have been on a constant uprise from the days when the Muscle Car Era took a dramatic plummet do to regulations. I'm very suprised it took this long for things to get going, esp. since we've had the technology for some time.


I'll still say though, I think the early 90's set it off, esp. 1993.

GreenMonster

The TLS and CLS had 260hp before the 02 altima came out...

GreenMonster

My dad had both of those... (didn't have the SC'd one tho')...

CLpower

Just FYI, the TL-S official release date was March 15th, 2001. not sure when the Altima landed though, but I think it was after that since edmunds didn't review one till 11-13-01. One cool thing Nissan did do w/ the altima was give the option of a manual tranny.

cob3683

HP wars started WAY before this example, but I would say that the introduction of M and AMG have played the most significant role over the last 10 years.

CLpower

I came sooooo close to getting a GXP instead of my 99 CL. it was between those two and the mustang, and the mustang was quickly off the list. I was actually set on the GXP then saw the CL at the auto show and thought it was real funky and would be perfect to fix up