BMW requiring new battery every 10K with oil change!
#42
Team Owner
Hey you can't have everything.
You want reliability, be a follower (the current Honda/Acura). Wait until everyone else work out all the bugs on the new tech, then you introduce it 4 or 5 years later.
or you can be the guinea pig and test out all the new tech (whether it is from BMW, Merc or Audi) but be prepared that shits will break.
You want reliability, be a follower (the current Honda/Acura). Wait until everyone else work out all the bugs on the new tech, then you introduce it 4 or 5 years later.
or you can be the guinea pig and test out all the new tech (whether it is from BMW, Merc or Audi) but be prepared that shits will break.
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#43
The Third Ball
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Hey you can't have everything.
You want reliability, be a follower (the current Honda/Acura). Wait until everyone else work out all the bugs on the new tech, then you introduce it 4 or 5 years later.
or you can be the guinea pig and test out all the new tech (whether it is from BMW, Merc or Audi) but be prepared that shits will break.
You want reliability, be a follower (the current Honda/Acura). Wait until everyone else work out all the bugs on the new tech, then you introduce it 4 or 5 years later.
or you can be the guinea pig and test out all the new tech (whether it is from BMW, Merc or Audi) but be prepared that shits will break.
PS: Hasn't Mercedes been striving and earning their rep at being pretty reliable again these days?
#44
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#45
Ex-OEM King
328i and 335i are overpriced for what they are.
This is an interesting discussion on BMW as a brand and why people choose to purchase them regardless of know issues. When bought my 2010 e60 550 a year and a half ago, I went into the purchase knowing that is car would not be the most reliable car I would own. There is actually sticky on the e60 forum basically warning you not to buy one because the list of issues you may encounter (valve steam seals failing, water possibly flooding the truck.. the list goes on) . Even after reading the post, I still wanted to try the last of the naturally aspirated V8s BMW had made. I know most people dislike the Bangle styled 5 series but I actually like the look.
That being said, I bought an extended warranty as well to cover any issues that would come up. I have had 2 issues covered under warranty (bad oil sensor and shifter assembly replaced). The car is still an blast to drive (M Sport with SAT) but I say a prayer before I get in car that I don't hear the idrive warning chime. I also don't follow the BMW recommended service intervals. They say change your oil every 15K, I change it every 7,500. BMW claims the transmission fluid is "lifetime", ZF themselves say to change it every 60K, so I did.
With some of the issues I have seen on the F10 forum, I don't know if I would purchase another BMW. Yes, these cars handle great but would I want to deal with taking it in every time there is something else to be replaced/fixed? Especially with all the other great choices in cars out there today.
That being said, I bought an extended warranty as well to cover any issues that would come up. I have had 2 issues covered under warranty (bad oil sensor and shifter assembly replaced). The car is still an blast to drive (M Sport with SAT) but I say a prayer before I get in car that I don't hear the idrive warning chime. I also don't follow the BMW recommended service intervals. They say change your oil every 15K, I change it every 7,500. BMW claims the transmission fluid is "lifetime", ZF themselves say to change it every 60K, so I did.
With some of the issues I have seen on the F10 forum, I don't know if I would purchase another BMW. Yes, these cars handle great but would I want to deal with taking it in every time there is something else to be replaced/fixed? Especially with all the other great choices in cars out there today.
I never want to own a car that I'm afraid to drive because it may break halfway to where I'm going. That's not fun at all, it's nerve racking.
The last of the NA V8s is a good motor but still not worth it in an E60. Should have spent your cash on a E39 M5 and called it good. I'm a fan of the LCI E60 styling, I think it looks decent and surely much better than the first gen.
Lexus puts in all of the same tech BMW does and they don't break. Why not?
MB and Porsche have been tops in reliability for the past 5ish years.
#46
Instructor
I decided to buy the last year of the e60 because most of the issues have been worked out. Also, to be honest I loved the options and specs on the car. It comes with almost every option available other than HUD and night vision. 2 items I could live without. As well as the 360Hp and 360 Torque engine has been fun to drive on my daily commute.
I would like to keep the car after the warranty is done, I found a good Indy shop that I can take the car to for repairs and maintenace after that point. We'll see how things go. I bought with 33K miles on it and I have 61K now.
I would like to keep the car after the warranty is done, I found a good Indy shop that I can take the car to for repairs and maintenace after that point. We'll see how things go. I bought with 33K miles on it and I have 61K now.
#47
Team Owner
Germans can say what they want. Reliability is definitely not their selling point. Maybe things have been improved but if we are strictly talking about reliability, they are still on the bottom of the list and the market shows, their customers are perfectly ok with that.
Soon Laser headlight, air gesture controls, 5th gen idrive, more Camera than red carpet events and even a 3D view Camera oh and the transmission is connected to GPS, so it will adjust its sensitivity and downshift based on GPS. All these are confirmed with the next 7 series that is scheduled to be released within the next few months.
I could see so many things go wrong already.
Last edited by oonowindoo; 05-14-2015 at 12:12 PM.
#48
Senior Moderator
I won't be surprised when you don't believe me (nor will I care), but Honda (Japan) and Acura have put up plenty of production automobile firsts. If I had more knowledge of BMW, I would venture to say Honda has more. In any case, I would gladly bet that the rate of automobile firsts * units sold / warranty claims is significantly higher for Honda.
When has Honda ever been one to follow anyone else?
When has Honda ever been one to follow anyone else?
#49
Team Owner
I kind of said it tongue in cheek but after reading it again, I don't think I was kidding at all. When a Mustang GT with a solid rear axle and 50% of the MSRP can lap a race track just as fast as your race bred $80k M3, there's a problem. BMW has not stepped up their game at all. The F series cars are large, lazy, and beyond expensive for what you get. Other than the badge, they offer nothing to me I can't get somewhere else for much less money. BMW has been pretty clear they want to make a bazillion niche low volume models and not what they made in the past. The M235i is the closest you can get to a car that honors the heyday of BMW but it costs $50,000 (that's FIFTY THOUSAND DOLLARS) for a small two door coupe. Are you fvcking kidding me? No one in their right mind should buy that car, but they sell just fine. Why? Because of the badge.
If nothing else, the 320i is the closest to a real BMW you can get. A 320i with 6mt, RWD, and sport package is the lightest, best handling non-M 3 series you can buy right now. IMO, it's the one to get since you get all of the above for ~$35k. A tune would kick the power up to higher levels, and you'd still get what you want, a great handling German sport sedan.
328i and 335i are overpriced for what they are.
If nothing else, the 320i is the closest to a real BMW you can get. A 320i with 6mt, RWD, and sport package is the lightest, best handling non-M 3 series you can buy right now. IMO, it's the one to get since you get all of the above for ~$35k. A tune would kick the power up to higher levels, and you'd still get what you want, a great handling German sport sedan.
328i and 335i are overpriced for what they are.
But pricing is not about what we think. It is decided by the market/competitors and how much people are willing to pay for it. I am sure Lexus will adjust IS350 Fsport's MSRP to $60k if they know they have no problem selling it.
50k for a M235i and you can load up a 335i to close to $60k without M performance accessories and you can load a 435i to over $65k.
But have you checked the pricings for a fully loaded C400, C450 or S5 and other BMW's direct competitors? (not Acura or Lexus)
They are all within $1000 or 2 with each other. Expensive yes, but as long as they can get away with it, they will.
#50
Team Owner
I won't be surprised when you don't believe me (nor will I care), but Honda (Japan) and Acura have put up plenty of production automobile firsts. If I had more knowledge of BMW, I would venture to say Honda has more. In any case, I would gladly bet that the rate of automobile firsts * units sold / warranty claims is significantly higher for Honda.
When has Honda ever been one to follow anyone else?
When has Honda ever been one to follow anyone else?
I think you are talking about the innovative Honda/Acura from 15 or 20 years ago.
I can give you 2 recent examples, Direct Injection in the US and more advanced Auto tranny. Do you know how long it took them to release those?
and there are still many things are pretty much standard in the market and they still have not introduced them yet in the US. Force Induction Engines in TLX.
Last edited by oonowindoo; 05-14-2015 at 12:37 PM.
#51
Senior Moderator
DI and higher gear trannys are good examples of Honda following suit. But I am unconvinced that BMW is a technological leader while Honda is for followers.
LKAS was barely edged out by Toyota. CMBS was introduced by Honda. Torque vectoring in an AWD appears to be introduced by Honda, and I am unaware of another car on the market that uses independent electric motors to drive individual wheels. There are a decent number of features that Honda was the first to introduce since 2000 as well, but the ones that I just mentioned have had a very significant impact on the way that cars drive today.
LKAS was barely edged out by Toyota. CMBS was introduced by Honda. Torque vectoring in an AWD appears to be introduced by Honda, and I am unaware of another car on the market that uses independent electric motors to drive individual wheels. There are a decent number of features that Honda was the first to introduce since 2000 as well, but the ones that I just mentioned have had a very significant impact on the way that cars drive today.
#52
Team Owner
DI and higher gear trannys are good examples of Honda following suit. But I am unconvinced that BMW is a leader in anything while Honda is for followers.
LKAS was barely edged out by Toyota. CMBS was introduced by Honda. Torque vectoring in an AWD appears to be introduced by Honda, and I am unaware of another car on the market that uses independent electric motors to drive individual wheels. There are a decent number of features that Honda was the first to introduce since 2000 as well, but the ones that I just mentioned have had a very significant impact on the way that cars drive today.
LKAS was barely edged out by Toyota. CMBS was introduced by Honda. Torque vectoring in an AWD appears to be introduced by Honda, and I am unaware of another car on the market that uses independent electric motors to drive individual wheels. There are a decent number of features that Honda was the first to introduce since 2000 as well, but the ones that I just mentioned have had a very significant impact on the way that cars drive today.
To answer your Electric motors to drive individual wheels: i8 and it can run all pure electricity or gas or half/half and it can charge itself.... In sport+ mode only
![rofl](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/rofl.gif)
Last edited by oonowindoo; 05-14-2015 at 01:03 PM.
#53
Ex-OEM King
I agree with you about the pricing and how BMW is going after the mainstream customers that don't care about what made BMW a BMW.
But pricing is not about what we think. It is decided by the market/competitors and how much people are willing to pay for it. I am sure Lexus will adjust IS350 Fsport's MSRP to $60k if they know they have no problem selling it.
50k for a M235i and you can load up a 335i to close to $60k without M performance accessories and you can load a 435i to over $65k.
But have you checked the pricings for a fully loaded C400, C450 or S5 and other BMW's direct competitors? (not Acura or Lexus)
They are all within $1000 or 2 with each other. Expensive yes, but as long as they can get away with it, they will.
But pricing is not about what we think. It is decided by the market/competitors and how much people are willing to pay for it. I am sure Lexus will adjust IS350 Fsport's MSRP to $60k if they know they have no problem selling it.
50k for a M235i and you can load up a 335i to close to $60k without M performance accessories and you can load a 435i to over $65k.
But have you checked the pricings for a fully loaded C400, C450 or S5 and other BMW's direct competitors? (not Acura or Lexus)
They are all within $1000 or 2 with each other. Expensive yes, but as long as they can get away with it, they will.
All of the other German manufacturers are guilty of the same stuff. MB is starting to get to the point where it's worth it though. The interiors, reliability, and uniqueness of the new MB cars are on another level. Audi has and always will be the lowest in reliability as any other VW car is.
Don't get me wrong though, BMW before the mid 00's was the benchmark in luxury performance. All of their cars were worth every penny you paid over that sh1tty Taurus on the lot next door. However, now that Taurus SHO can destroy (in terms of performance) your garden variety 5 series without trying and for $30k less and have many of the same features.
Doubt it.
I think you are talking about the innovative Honda/Acura from 15 or 20 years ago.
I can give you 2 recent examples, Direct Injection in the US and more advanced Auto tranny. Do you know how long it took them to release those?
and there are still many things are pretty much standard in the market and they still have not introduced them yet in the US. Exhaust tips in TLX.
I think you are talking about the innovative Honda/Acura from 15 or 20 years ago.
I can give you 2 recent examples, Direct Injection in the US and more advanced Auto tranny. Do you know how long it took them to release those?
and there are still many things are pretty much standard in the market and they still have not introduced them yet in the US. Exhaust tips in TLX.
Also electric motors driving individual wheels are in which Honda car now?
#54
Team Owner
I agree completely but you can't tell me that those people aren't largely buying a badge. I bet 95% of BMW's customers give 0 fucks about how it drives and don't even have any idea of what engine is under the hood. All they see is bigger number = better and M = better still. They want the prestige that comes with owning one, not the experience of it.
All of the other German manufacturers are guilty of the same stuff. MB is starting to get to the point where it's worth it though. The interiors, reliability, and uniqueness of the new MB cars are on another level. Audi has and always will be the lowest in reliability as any other VW car is.
Don't get me wrong though, BMW before the mid 00's was the benchmark in luxury performance. All of their cars were worth every penny you paid over that sh1tty Taurus on the lot next door. However, now that Taurus SHO can destroy (in terms of performance) your garden variety 5 series without trying and for $30k less and have many of the same features.
fixed.
Also electric motors driving individual wheels are in which Honda car now?
All of the other German manufacturers are guilty of the same stuff. MB is starting to get to the point where it's worth it though. The interiors, reliability, and uniqueness of the new MB cars are on another level. Audi has and always will be the lowest in reliability as any other VW car is.
Don't get me wrong though, BMW before the mid 00's was the benchmark in luxury performance. All of their cars were worth every penny you paid over that sh1tty Taurus on the lot next door. However, now that Taurus SHO can destroy (in terms of performance) your garden variety 5 series without trying and for $30k less and have many of the same features.
fixed.
Also electric motors driving individual wheels are in which Honda car now?
That is the same argument that you can apply to a lot of things:
335i costs twice as much as a WRX but is it twice the car?
a NSX probably cost 7 times more than a s2000 but is it 7 times the car?
Taurus SHO is just as fast or not faster than 5. but does it make you feel the same way? We are materialistic by nature and we all want better things, otherwise, all of us will be driving Corolla and Civics.
We are talking about Luxury unnecessary items here, they are never about value and you are paying more for what you want, not what you need.
I think he was talking about the RLX Sport hybrid that doesn't exist now or the Vapery NSX.
Last edited by oonowindoo; 05-14-2015 at 04:10 PM.
#55
Senior Moderator
#56
Moderator
#57
Senior Moderator
I'm up to speed now. It will be available again in a month. Not sure why a discontinued model takes away from automotive ingenuity though.
#58
Team Owner
In a month?
All i know is it has been removed from Acura's website for quite some time now.
It appeared when no one cared anymore (Except for Bob obviously) and disappeared again without many people knowing.... the most expensive and technological advanced Acura flagship.
and you want to talk about discontinued models? well i ain't got time for that because there have been way too many unless you wanna talk about S2000.
All i know is it has been removed from Acura's website for quite some time now.
It appeared when no one cared anymore (Except for Bob obviously) and disappeared again without many people knowing.... the most expensive and technological advanced Acura flagship.
and you want to talk about discontinued models? well i ain't got time for that because there have been way too many unless you wanna talk about S2000.
Last edited by oonowindoo; 05-14-2015 at 07:23 PM.
#59
Senior Moderator
But still, why does it matter? Do McLaren F1s exist now? Does that take away from the boundaries the car pushed? The answer is a resounding "no". Whether you want to believe it or not, Honda has lead the automotive industry to enough firsts to deserve its credit, and at the same time kept a solid hold on reliability only behind Toyota. If you want to be a follower, buy a Hyundai. The idea that field failures are inherent to automotive ingenuity is an apologist's excuse for BMWs poor rap.
![2 Cents](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/2cents.gif)
#60
I drive a Subata.
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#61
Team Owner
But still, why does it matter? Do McLaren F1s exist now? Does that take away from the boundaries the car pushed? The answer is a resounding "no". Whether you want to believe it or not, Honda has lead the automotive industry to enough firsts to deserve its credit, and at the same time kept a solid hold on reliability only behind Toyota. If you want to be a follower, buy a Hyundai. The idea that field failures are inherent to automotive ingenuity is an apologist's excuse for BMWs poor rap. ![2 Cents](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/2cents.gif)
![2 Cents](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/2cents.gif)
Hyundai might be a follower but at least they are following the leaders, not in their own world and living off its past reputation.
But hey you were the one who thought Honda had no other tranny problems other than the current 9ZF.
Last edited by oonowindoo; 05-14-2015 at 08:24 PM.
#62
Senior Moderator
....and this is why I keep buying Honda products. They are not perfect, and they sometimes take time to acknowledge a problem, but you can be sure that Honda would not gloss over a battery drainage problem by requiring a battery replacement at every oil change. That's just crazy.
I'd still lease a BMW 650i in a heartbeat. Not buy, lease....
I'd still lease a BMW 650i in a heartbeat. Not buy, lease....
#63
Ex-OEM King
BMW just doesn't give a sh1t. People will buy them no matter what happens because the majority of people lease and not buy. They won't ever have to pay out of pocket for the battery swap.
#64
99 TL, 06 E350
#65
Senior Moderator
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![Nod](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/nod.gif)
![Nod](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/nod.gif)
Since 2005 we've owned 2 Audi's, 1 MB, and 1 Porsche (even older than 5 years) and all of them have been great. Pre-2005 I am not sure if I would have purchased a German car, but now I wouldn't think twice (obviously). That said, for some reason BMW still concerns me. Never owned one and not sure we would. We love the new 6 and I've always loved the M5, but we'd likely buy another A6 or an A7 instead of the 6-series... and I'd likely pick up an AMG over an M.
#66
Senior Moderator
Hyundai is more innovative than Honda/Acura in 2015.
Hyundai might be a follower but at least they are following the leaders, not in their own world and living off its past reputation.
But hey you were the one who thought Honda had no other tranny problems other than the current 9ZF.
Hyundai might be a follower but at least they are following the leaders, not in their own world and living off its past reputation.
But hey you were the one who thought Honda had no other tranny problems other than the current 9ZF.
![Yawn](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/yawn.gif)
But hey, you're the one who can't read and think at the same time.
#67
Team Owner
If you don't care, then stop quoting my post, so we could avoid this type of conversation.
Started from Post #47 and 48.
Started from Post #47 and 48.
#68
Senior Moderator
A 335i is a real BMW but a 320i/328i is not? Since when did a BMW become a real BMW based on the power output? I thought they won their praise because they were known for their well balanced chassis.
Phew, good thing I still have the roundel on my lowly 328i.
![Tomato](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/tomato.gif)
#70
Azine Jabroni
The 328i is fine. The 320i is garbage.
#72
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I've read these comments and just roll my eyes a bit. I don't drive a BMW because of a badge, if that was the case, I'd drive a MBZ; I don't give a rat's ass about "prestige" instead I love the feel, look, drivability, care from the dealer, interior, performance and individuality (650 GC, not a 3/5/7 car, they all look the same with varying degrees of interior grade). I didn't lease the car because I plan on owning it a long time, probably 7-9 years anyways and in spite of all the known (by me) warts the car had, including the battery issue, I bought it anyways because you know what? The 530 I bought had its issues too and it's been an outstanding car, so much so that I've put a bunch into it just to keep it on the road. I never would've done that with any other car I've owned.
Some of you may recall the tranny problems the CL-S had; mine had 4 transmissions. I still loved the car but Acura's styling looked too blah to me and I moved away from the product line. Just as long the manufacturer makes it right, I can deal with the little problems along the way.
People that buy these cars can afford to fix them; it's all proportionate. You pay $300 for a Mustang alternator, I pay $500 and in the end, each of us has the car we desire the most.
I'm glad I bought my 650i xDrive GC and can't wait to put 150K on it.
Some of you may recall the tranny problems the CL-S had; mine had 4 transmissions. I still loved the car but Acura's styling looked too blah to me and I moved away from the product line. Just as long the manufacturer makes it right, I can deal with the little problems along the way.
People that buy these cars can afford to fix them; it's all proportionate. You pay $300 for a Mustang alternator, I pay $500 and in the end, each of us has the car we desire the most.
I'm glad I bought my 650i xDrive GC and can't wait to put 150K on it.
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#73
Team Owner
Many assume because 320 only has 180hp then it is slow....i would not call a car that does 1/4 mile in mid 14s and 0-60 in mid 6s slow... or we can pretty much call everything in Honda/Acura's lineup slow.
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#77
Senior Moderator
I actually went looking for a 320i but was hard to find with sport package and wasnt in stock at any dealers.
Found a 328i with Msport locally. Had to take advantage of the lease deals (left over 2014s) otherwise I would have ordered a 320i with sport.
Plus you know that you can tune a 320i and it would be just as fast as a tuned 328i.
![Tomato](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/tomato.gif)
Last edited by Crazy Bimmer; 05-16-2015 at 11:01 PM.
#78
I'm Craig
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I actually went looking for a 320i but was hard to find with sport package and wasnt in stock at any dealers.
Found a 328i with Msport locally. Had to take advantage of the lease deals (left over 2014s) otherwise I would have ordered a 320i with sport.
Plus you know that you can tune a 320i and it would be just as fast as a tuned 328i.![Tomato](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/tomato.gif)
Found a 328i with Msport locally. Had to take advantage of the lease deals (left over 2014s) otherwise I would have ordered a 320i with sport.
Plus you know that you can tune a 320i and it would be just as fast as a tuned 328i.
![Tomato](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/tomato.gif)
#79
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buying a 320 is the equivalent of buying a Ford Focus SVT, econocar with some guts; both at the low end of the marques' line up.
Last edited by Chief F1 Fan; 05-17-2015 at 08:27 AM.
#80
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
I'd still by a BMW over an Acura at this point (well.. maybe still buy an MDX first)
![Teef](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/teef.gif)