BMW requiring new battery every 10K with oil change!
05-11-2015, 10:11 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
BMW requiring new battery every 10K with oil change!
Here's an interesting read on the Turbocharged V8 engines BMW is putting out!
Article Link: Enginerdy: Why BMW's N63 twin-turbo V8 eats batteries
I wonder if they will cover the batteries under the 4yr/40K maintenance plan or the extended 7yr/100K optional plan. If not, I wouldn't be surprised for "bait and switch" or "false advertising" lawsuits that battery maintenance is not covered.
Article Link: Enginerdy: Why BMW's N63 twin-turbo V8 eats batteries
Enginerdy: Why BMW's N63 twin-turbo V8 eats batteries
When cars get complicated, weird things happen. In the search for fuel economy and prodigious output, BMW's N63 twin-turbo V8 happens to chew through batteries.
BY JASON CAMMISA
Originally published in the June 2015 issue of Road & Track.
I have lots of friends who work on cars for a living. You could call them mechanics, but I think of them as supersleuths. I could write a book about some of the mysteries they've solved, like whacked-out windshield wipers caused by faulty fuel pumps or stability control that refuses to work because of dirty engine oil. Today's cars are so electronically interconnected that problems manifest themselves with the most bizarre symptoms. Here's one for you: BMW turbochargers are killing batteries in search of fuel savings.
BMW is no stranger to strange problems. The company has an admirable track record of introducing new technologies. Unfortunately, the new tech tends to be unreliable at first. The latest example giving BMW's warranty department gas is the N63 twin-turbocharged V8, introduced in 2008.
BMW of North America has recognized a number of N63 components with high failure rates, including timing chains that stretch and snap, leaking crankcase ventilation and fuel lines, and malfunctioning fuel injectors, mass airflow sensors, and vacuum pumps. Rather than waiting for them to break, BMW NA is proactively replacing the parts with improved components through its shrewdly named Customer Care Package, or CCP. This is not a recall, because recalls address vehicle safety. Instead, BMW says, the CCP represents its "commitment to the long-term reliability of our most technologically advanced products." It is undeniably a good customer service move.
BMW is also quietly dropping the V8's oil-service interval from 15,000 to 10,000 miles. Not because of oil-life concerns, but to smokescreen the N63's appetite for motor oil. By shortening the time between oil changes (and sneaking an additional quart into the sump), there's less chance customers will get a low-oil-level warning. Insiders at BMW in Germany say the oil consumption happens to customers who don't ever flog their powerful, turbocharged V8s hard enough to fully break them in. Ironic.
Finally, the CCP offers a way to cover up the N63's habit of chewing through batteries: It contains a technical service bulletin to replace them at every oil change. This is where things get confusing. Why not just fix the underlying electrical problem? As it turns out, BMW can't.
As part of its EfficientDynamics push, BMW's cars are loaded with expensive systems to save fuel wherever possible. One of them, the smart-charging system, operates on the premise that you can increase fuel economy slightly by charging the battery only when coasting. Unfortunately, American drivers aren't coasters, we're cruisers, so the system was murdering batteries. BMW's solution was to throw money at the problem, replacing the batteries with Absorbent Glass Mat (AGM) units that can cope with deeper and more frequent discharge cycles.
UNFORTUNATELY, THE NEW TECH TENDS TO BE UNRELIABLE AT FIRST.
That worked until the V8 gained turbos. With two very hot turbochargers in the very hot valley of its vee, the N63's cooling system must continue to run long after the engine's been turned off. The system's draw is more than the batteries can deal with, so BMW is now swapping out the old 90-Ah AGMs for 105-Ah units—and hoping they'll survive for at least 10,000 miles.
The simple solution would be to reprogram the engine computers to keep the battery's state of charge at a higher level. But in modern cars, everything affects something else, often in the most unlikely of ways. Charging the battery more often would affect fuel economy, which would require BMW to recertify the cars with the EPA. The revised mpg numbers would inevitably be lower than the ones advertised. Hello, class-action lawsuit.
So BMW can't actually fix the battery problem, it can only mask it. While it may be counterintuitive that turbocharging resulted in engines so understressed that they never break in, it's understandable. But who'd have thought adding turbos in search of better fuel economy would accidentally increase battery consumption? I feel for the guy who had to figure that one out.
When cars get complicated, weird things happen. In the search for fuel economy and prodigious output, BMW's N63 twin-turbo V8 happens to chew through batteries.
BY JASON CAMMISA
Originally published in the June 2015 issue of Road & Track.
I have lots of friends who work on cars for a living. You could call them mechanics, but I think of them as supersleuths. I could write a book about some of the mysteries they've solved, like whacked-out windshield wipers caused by faulty fuel pumps or stability control that refuses to work because of dirty engine oil. Today's cars are so electronically interconnected that problems manifest themselves with the most bizarre symptoms. Here's one for you: BMW turbochargers are killing batteries in search of fuel savings.
BMW is no stranger to strange problems. The company has an admirable track record of introducing new technologies. Unfortunately, the new tech tends to be unreliable at first. The latest example giving BMW's warranty department gas is the N63 twin-turbocharged V8, introduced in 2008.
BMW of North America has recognized a number of N63 components with high failure rates, including timing chains that stretch and snap, leaking crankcase ventilation and fuel lines, and malfunctioning fuel injectors, mass airflow sensors, and vacuum pumps. Rather than waiting for them to break, BMW NA is proactively replacing the parts with improved components through its shrewdly named Customer Care Package, or CCP. This is not a recall, because recalls address vehicle safety. Instead, BMW says, the CCP represents its "commitment to the long-term reliability of our most technologically advanced products." It is undeniably a good customer service move.
BMW is also quietly dropping the V8's oil-service interval from 15,000 to 10,000 miles. Not because of oil-life concerns, but to smokescreen the N63's appetite for motor oil. By shortening the time between oil changes (and sneaking an additional quart into the sump), there's less chance customers will get a low-oil-level warning. Insiders at BMW in Germany say the oil consumption happens to customers who don't ever flog their powerful, turbocharged V8s hard enough to fully break them in. Ironic.
Finally, the CCP offers a way to cover up the N63's habit of chewing through batteries: It contains a technical service bulletin to replace them at every oil change. This is where things get confusing. Why not just fix the underlying electrical problem? As it turns out, BMW can't.
As part of its EfficientDynamics push, BMW's cars are loaded with expensive systems to save fuel wherever possible. One of them, the smart-charging system, operates on the premise that you can increase fuel economy slightly by charging the battery only when coasting. Unfortunately, American drivers aren't coasters, we're cruisers, so the system was murdering batteries. BMW's solution was to throw money at the problem, replacing the batteries with Absorbent Glass Mat (AGM) units that can cope with deeper and more frequent discharge cycles.
UNFORTUNATELY, THE NEW TECH TENDS TO BE UNRELIABLE AT FIRST.
That worked until the V8 gained turbos. With two very hot turbochargers in the very hot valley of its vee, the N63's cooling system must continue to run long after the engine's been turned off. The system's draw is more than the batteries can deal with, so BMW is now swapping out the old 90-Ah AGMs for 105-Ah units—and hoping they'll survive for at least 10,000 miles.
The simple solution would be to reprogram the engine computers to keep the battery's state of charge at a higher level. But in modern cars, everything affects something else, often in the most unlikely of ways. Charging the battery more often would affect fuel economy, which would require BMW to recertify the cars with the EPA. The revised mpg numbers would inevitably be lower than the ones advertised. Hello, class-action lawsuit.
So BMW can't actually fix the battery problem, it can only mask it. While it may be counterintuitive that turbocharging resulted in engines so understressed that they never break in, it's understandable. But who'd have thought adding turbos in search of better fuel economy would accidentally increase battery consumption? I feel for the guy who had to figure that one out.
Last edited by csmeance; 05-11-2015 at 10:17 PM.
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05-12-2015, 12:17 AM
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Zis is an outrage! Somevone vill be shot! :smitler:
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05-12-2015, 09:56 AM
#6
Three Wheelin'
BMW + turbo = fail
Saving a little fuel at the cost of full batteries, which is likely worse for the environment. Well done guys
Saving a little fuel at the cost of full batteries, which is likely worse for the environment. Well done guys
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PortlandRL (05-14-2015)
05-12-2015, 10:10 AM
#7
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That is just nuts...........
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05-12-2015, 10:12 AM
#8
Senior Moderator
It's a feature, not a glitch.
Gotta pay to play
Gotta pay to play
05-12-2015, 10:14 AM
#9
Moderator
Should be interesting to see how this one plays out.
05-12-2015, 11:03 AM
#10
Registered but harmless
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So how much does a new battery install cost if the owner has to pay for it?
If I had a _50i, I probably wouldn't mind a couple of hundred bucks every 10K miles, but I would hate to pay more than that.
The additional batteries are probably bad from a natural resource and environment standpoint, though.
If I had a _50i, I probably wouldn't mind a couple of hundred bucks every 10K miles, but I would hate to pay more than that.
The additional batteries are probably bad from a natural resource and environment standpoint, though.
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Undying Dreams (05-13-2015)
05-12-2015, 11:08 AM
#12
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05-12-2015, 12:54 PM
#14
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05-12-2015, 12:58 PM
#15
Team Owner
meh...
Does anyone really expect a $100,000, Twinturbo 500hp car with shit load of techs require the same type of maintenance and share the same type of problems as... a $25k Accord?
I have not met 1 single person who buys those type of cars because they think they are reliable.
Does anyone really expect a $100,000, Twinturbo 500hp car with shit load of techs require the same type of maintenance and share the same type of problems as... a $25k Accord?
I have not met 1 single person who buys those type of cars because they think they are reliable.
05-12-2015, 02:46 PM
#16
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meh...
Does anyone really expect a $100,000, Twinturbo 500hp car with shit load of techs require the same type of maintenance and share the same type of problems as... a $25k Accord?
I have not met 1 single person who buys those type of cars because they think they are reliable.
Does anyone really expect a $100,000, Twinturbo 500hp car with shit load of techs require the same type of maintenance and share the same type of problems as... a $25k Accord?
I have not met 1 single person who buys those type of cars because they think they are reliable.
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05-12-2015, 02:50 PM
#17
Moderator
I get what you are saying, but I think you know we are talking about very different types of cars when comparing the cars with the engine issue to the Hellcats.
05-12-2015, 03:15 PM
#19
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
When you dish out 100K for a car, you expect it to be well made, not a tossable item!
05-12-2015, 03:15 PM
#20
Trolling Canuckistan
05-12-2015, 03:26 PM
#21
Moderator
^ agree, it's pretty dumb. My 760 has had about 50K+ in repairs covered by the extended warranty mainly due to poor design. Many bad seals caused by the car running at 105C compared to most other cars that run at 88C.
When you dish out 100K for a car, you expect it to be well made, not a tossable item!
When you dish out 100K for a car, you expect it to be well made, not a tossable item!
05-12-2015, 05:04 PM
#22
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Its not like the Hellcat is lacking in technology compared to whats out there now.
Or, since I know what you're getting at, does Mercedes require a battery chance at every oil change? Bentley? Rolls Royce? Audi? Lexus? Ferrari? Lamborghini? McLaren? Porsche?
Not that I am aware of.
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juniorbean (05-15-2015)
05-12-2015, 05:57 PM
#23
Team Owner
Let's get something straight first.
ALL of us here think the battery change at 10k miles is stupid. So that is done.
Now, every major "expensive" brands all have their share of unique problems that you don't find in commodity brands and maybe that is why all of them are pretty much on the bottom of the list when it comes to reliability. Personal experience may vary.
Why does BMW charge $1500 on a brake job when the same job only cost $500 on a accord? The parts might be different but not $1000 different.
Not saying this is right or wrong. but that is just how it is and it has been like this for many years when it comes to European cars.
They offer less than its Japanese/Domestic counterparts and generally they are less reliable and cost more to repair and break down often with weirdest problems. So the question is why do they still buy 550, 650, M5, M6 over the Hellcats? That is why there are buyers for Hellcats and they are other buyers for other less reliable but more expensive cars.
So there is still something the Hellcats cannot offer and whether that is brand whore appeal or something else is another topic.
But that something is enough for people to deal with all the BS from BMW, Audi and etc.. and i doubt replacing battery at 10k will be a deal breaker for them.
ALL of us here think the battery change at 10k miles is stupid. So that is done.
Now, every major "expensive" brands all have their share of unique problems that you don't find in commodity brands and maybe that is why all of them are pretty much on the bottom of the list when it comes to reliability. Personal experience may vary.
Why does BMW charge $1500 on a brake job when the same job only cost $500 on a accord? The parts might be different but not $1000 different.
Not saying this is right or wrong. but that is just how it is and it has been like this for many years when it comes to European cars.
They offer less than its Japanese/Domestic counterparts and generally they are less reliable and cost more to repair and break down often with weirdest problems. So the question is why do they still buy 550, 650, M5, M6 over the Hellcats? That is why there are buyers for Hellcats and they are other buyers for other less reliable but more expensive cars.
So there is still something the Hellcats cannot offer and whether that is brand whore appeal or something else is another topic.
But that something is enough for people to deal with all the BS from BMW, Audi and etc.. and i doubt replacing battery at 10k will be a deal breaker for them.
Last edited by oonowindoo; 05-12-2015 at 06:01 PM.
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ttribe (05-12-2015)
05-12-2015, 06:07 PM
#24
Moderator
But at this day and age...how come?
Its not like the Hellcat is lacking in technology compared to whats out there now.
Or, since I know what you're getting at, does Mercedes require a battery chance at every oil change? Bentley? Rolls Royce? Audi? Lexus? Ferrari? Lamborghini? McLaren? Porsche?
Not that I am aware of.
Its not like the Hellcat is lacking in technology compared to whats out there now.
Or, since I know what you're getting at, does Mercedes require a battery chance at every oil change? Bentley? Rolls Royce? Audi? Lexus? Ferrari? Lamborghini? McLaren? Porsche?
Not that I am aware of.
Again, there are some cars that are more expensive to maintain. Part of the reason is snobby nonsense (i.e. because they can get away with it). Some of it is just the complexity of the engineering. My BMW is orders of magnitude more complex than my wife's Pilot, for example. I'm not placing a value judgment on whether that is a good thing or a bad thing; it just is. Now, part of the argument could come down to whether that complexity is necessary to accomplish the same goals. That, I have no idea. I just know I like how my car drives, and it drives better than anything else I've ever owned.
05-12-2015, 06:07 PM
#25
Team Owner
If i had a $100k, i will not buy the BMW V8TT.
I would get the GTR, then again i will have to deal with its unreliable transmission and the launch control that i paid for but can't use.
I would get the GTR, then again i will have to deal with its unreliable transmission and the launch control that i paid for but can't use.
05-12-2015, 06:14 PM
#26
Team Owner
^ agree, it's pretty dumb. My 760 has had about 50K+ in repairs covered by the extended warranty mainly due to poor design. Many bad seals caused by the car running at 105C compared to most other cars that run at 88C.
When you dish out 100K for a car, you expect it to be well made, not a tossable item!
When you dish out 100K for a car, you expect it to be well made, not a tossable item!
and that is the advice i gave to everyone who buy new or used BMW. better know what you are getting yourself into, or just lease.
05-12-2015, 08:31 PM
#29
Trolling Canuckistan
Most people lease bmws anyway, they won't care because of the maintanence plan and because they are typically returning the car well before the warranty is up.
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05-13-2015, 01:20 AM
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05-13-2015, 01:34 AM
#31
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I think I already said the battery change at oil changes is not a good thing.
Again, there are some cars that are more expensive to maintain. Part of the reason is snobby nonsense (i.e. because they can get away with it). Some of it is just the complexity of the engineering. My BMW is orders of magnitude more complex than my wife's Pilot, for example. I'm not placing a value judgment on whether that is a good thing or a bad thing; it just is. Now, part of the argument could come down to whether that complexity is necessary to accomplish the same goals. That, I have no idea. I just know I like how my car drives, and it drives better than anything else I've ever owned.
Again, there are some cars that are more expensive to maintain. Part of the reason is snobby nonsense (i.e. because they can get away with it). Some of it is just the complexity of the engineering. My BMW is orders of magnitude more complex than my wife's Pilot, for example. I'm not placing a value judgment on whether that is a good thing or a bad thing; it just is. Now, part of the argument could come down to whether that complexity is necessary to accomplish the same goals. That, I have no idea. I just know I like how my car drives, and it drives better than anything else I've ever owned.
But I am on the side of the coin that older bimmers "felt/drove" better than contemporary bimmers. M variants not withstanding.
05-13-2015, 09:03 AM
#32
Moderator
05-13-2015, 04:26 PM
#33
Senior Moderator
I still haven't figured out why I should be impressed with German engineering. Putting a required charging cycle on variable driving style and not covering the minimum application is poor engineering.
05-13-2015, 05:17 PM
#34
Ex-OEM King
^ Not understanding your largest market is sh1tty engineering at best.
I cannot believe that no one at BMW ever thought that Americans drive differently than Europeans. They have an entire NA marketing arm that should have supplied that information decades ago. And now they just claim "oops" and move on.
The solution, now that this problem is out, will be to make a marginal change to the engine, slap a new engine code on it, and sell it with the correct fix. The resale values of the affected cars will plummet to the point where we can all pick one up for cheap, put a tune on the engine that changes the problem (amongst others), and move on with life.
That said, I would never buy another BMW new or used. The amount of crap you have to deal with just isn't worth it when there are now many cars that match or exceed the performance of a BMW for a lot less money and headaches. All you're paying for is the badge tax and a slightly nicer interior.
I cannot believe that no one at BMW ever thought that Americans drive differently than Europeans. They have an entire NA marketing arm that should have supplied that information decades ago. And now they just claim "oops" and move on.
The solution, now that this problem is out, will be to make a marginal change to the engine, slap a new engine code on it, and sell it with the correct fix. The resale values of the affected cars will plummet to the point where we can all pick one up for cheap, put a tune on the engine that changes the problem (amongst others), and move on with life.
That said, I would never buy another BMW new or used. The amount of crap you have to deal with just isn't worth it when there are now many cars that match or exceed the performance of a BMW for a lot less money and headaches. All you're paying for is the badge tax and a slightly nicer interior.
05-13-2015, 06:17 PM
#35
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I still dream of owning another older one. But with todays market and competition...The options are out there. And in LA...way to many propellor badges to make any of it feel special or unique.
That said my wife still dreams of the day she can have a bmw to satisfy her Persian blood.
05-13-2015, 07:04 PM
#36
Moderator
^ Not understanding your largest market is sh1tty engineering at best.
I cannot believe that no one at BMW ever thought that Americans drive differently than Europeans. They have an entire NA marketing arm that should have supplied that information decades ago. And now they just claim "oops" and move on.
The solution, now that this problem is out, will be to make a marginal change to the engine, slap a new engine code on it, and sell it with the correct fix. The resale values of the affected cars will plummet to the point where we can all pick one up for cheap, put a tune on the engine that changes the problem (amongst others), and move on with life.
That said, I would never buy another BMW new or used. The amount of crap you have to deal with just isn't worth it when there are now many cars that match or exceed the performance of a BMW for a lot less money and headaches. All you're paying for is the badge tax and a slightly nicer interior.
I cannot believe that no one at BMW ever thought that Americans drive differently than Europeans. They have an entire NA marketing arm that should have supplied that information decades ago. And now they just claim "oops" and move on.
The solution, now that this problem is out, will be to make a marginal change to the engine, slap a new engine code on it, and sell it with the correct fix. The resale values of the affected cars will plummet to the point where we can all pick one up for cheap, put a tune on the engine that changes the problem (amongst others), and move on with life.
That said, I would never buy another BMW new or used. The amount of crap you have to deal with just isn't worth it when there are now many cars that match or exceed the performance of a BMW for a lot less money and headaches. All you're paying for is the badge tax and a slightly nicer interior.
05-13-2015, 07:23 PM
#37
Moderator
05-13-2015, 08:17 PM
#38
Azine Jabroni
I gotta agree with this...and I used to be the biggest bmw fanboy.
I still dream of owning another older one. But with todays market and competition...The options are out there. And in LA...way to many propellor badges to make any of it feel special or unique.
That said my wife still dreams of the day she can have a bmw to satisfy her Persian blood.
I still dream of owning another older one. But with todays market and competition...The options are out there. And in LA...way to many propellor badges to make any of it feel special or unique.
That said my wife still dreams of the day she can have a bmw to satisfy her Persian blood.
To me, BMW has gotten wise to the value of their badge, but if you spend the money and by a real BMW (read, not a 320i), you get a BMW.
05-13-2015, 08:18 PM
#39
Moderator
I can agree with this. The shameless dilution of the badge has been hard to watch.
05-13-2015, 09:37 PM
#40
Instructor
This is an interesting discussion on BMW as a brand and why people choose to purchase them regardless of know issues. When bought my 2010 e60 550 a year and a half ago, I went into the purchase knowing that is car would not be the most reliable car I would own. There is actually sticky on the e60 forum basically warning you not to buy one because the list of issues you may encounter (valve steam seals failing, water possibly flooding the truck.. the list goes on) . Even after reading the post, I still wanted to try the last of the naturally aspirated V8s BMW had made. I know most people dislike the Bangle styled 5 series but I actually like the look.
That being said, I bought an extended warranty as well to cover any issues that would come up. I have had 2 issues covered under warranty (bad oil sensor and shifter assembly replaced). The car is still an blast to drive (M Sport with SAT) but I say a prayer before I get in car that I don't hear the idrive warning chime. I also don't follow the BMW recommended service intervals. They say change your oil every 15K, I change it every 7,500. BMW claims the transmission fluid is "lifetime", ZF themselves say to change it every 60K, so I did.
With some of the issues I have seen on the F10 forum, I don't know if I would purchase another BMW. Yes, these cars handle great but would I want to deal with taking it in every time there is something else to be replaced/fixed? Especially with all the other great choices in cars out there today.
That being said, I bought an extended warranty as well to cover any issues that would come up. I have had 2 issues covered under warranty (bad oil sensor and shifter assembly replaced). The car is still an blast to drive (M Sport with SAT) but I say a prayer before I get in car that I don't hear the idrive warning chime. I also don't follow the BMW recommended service intervals. They say change your oil every 15K, I change it every 7,500. BMW claims the transmission fluid is "lifetime", ZF themselves say to change it every 60K, so I did.
With some of the issues I have seen on the F10 forum, I don't know if I would purchase another BMW. Yes, these cars handle great but would I want to deal with taking it in every time there is something else to be replaced/fixed? Especially with all the other great choices in cars out there today.
