is300eater

speedemon90

I hope Acura ditches the FWD platorm on the next gen tl. Pushing that much power is just way to much for the front.

Also they need to restyle that front fascia and just get rid of it on all their cars. And make the car look a little more conservative. This way there wont be a love hate look when most people go towards the hate side.

Acura used to be soo good. I still see so many 2nd and 3rd gen tl's. And it just reminds me how they used to be. I'm sure if they change their lineup soon all those people in the 3g tl's may go to acura when its time for them to look at another car. Make their cars fun to drive, and keep it sophisticated. And styling is a must. Probably 80% of the people that buy cars base it off of brand name, looks, and functionality. Make it look sportier and people will think its fast. But for the enthusiasts you have to make/keep it fun to drive. (dunno how the 4g tl's drive.)

mmafighta

shitload of 3 and C classes in my area.

Hardly any G's or Audis though...weird.

Saintor

Really?

EPA mpgUS
2010 AWD RDX 240HP 17/22 - requires Premium
2010 AWD Santa Fe 276HP 20/26 - runs on Regular

Both are about the same weight, the Santa Fe is larger.

Color me *unimpressed*.

F23A4

Interesting, very interesting. hmmm.

pttl

yeah, I noticed that too.

SuperTrooper169

iTrader: (2)

^ I think he was talking about Honda manuals, not automatics. At least I hope that's what he meant.

chiacuradude

right on with all of this! I had an RDX for about 2 years, then my commute changed and I was averaging over 120 round trip per day.......needless to say, with the 19's I had on it didn't last long, so I had to sell it - I still miss it to this day.

Anyway, yes, the TSX needs to have the 4cyl turbo option with SH-AWD to compete or least try and stay competitive with the 3 series x-drive and G37x sedans.

cp3117

It will be interesting to see what happens next month as Acura has huge incentives on all of their vehicles here in Canada now. $7-8k off ZDX's, $5k off TL's and even $4500 off the MDX which surprises me being its their best seller.

The luxury market has been weird here in Canada since the economy crashed. All of the major luxury brands here tend to be increasing in sales but Acura is losing (with the exception of a few months this year). They tried these huge incentives last year and it didnt work and they had to extend them. Hopefully this year it will be more successful. Either way Acura Canada has to be hurting being sales have been dropping and incentives increasing, thats not good in any buisness.

Costco

I almost said the same thing.... but I think you need to look a little closer at the post

YetiTL

That's normal. In Canada, luxury cars are 15-30 % more expensive than in the US (partly because of higher sales taxes). So when the economy tanked in 2008-2009, the richer ppl didn't suffered a lot but the upper-middle class suffered a whole lot more. The big 3 german brands did just fine but it has been harder for ther others. It also depends of where you are located, small city vs. big metropolitain area and so forth...

, YMMV

nj2pa2nc

I am disappointed that acura has limited the color choice with manual transmission. I am planning to replace my 06 tsx next June and was hoping to they would have a red tsx with MT. We once settled for a Volvo with automatic when they told us if would be hard to get one with MT. Never again-no MT-no sale-

pickler

First of all according to FuelEconomy.gov your figure of 20/26MPG for the santa-fe is wrong. The AWD V6 santafe scores 17/24MPG. 2MPG better in highway only than the RDX. In my RDX i scored 22mpg 60% city. With the ecu hondata flash i am getting average of near 23mpg. Lets compare AWD vs AWD.

Also are comparing a 3.3L V6 engine with a 2.3L I4 engine which makes more horsepower but LESS torque! Do you know how much torque the K23 generates at 2000-3500RPM range?

http://www.hondata.com/reflash_rdx.html

figures measured at the wheels:



i'm not saying that the K23 is extremely superior i'm just saying they are two different classes. It's easy to increase displacement to get more horsepower having a smaller engine with more torque is a different story. plus the fuel consumption of the RDX is due to its SH-AWD system.

That said the RDX is much faster and with a ecu chip gives a 6s flat 0-60. The 240hp figure is obviously under-rated just like how bmw is conservative about their turbo 6s. I have driven the 2.0T on the genesis coupe when i was in store for a coupe and it was horrible. it was buzzy, lacked torque and very inconsistent. Motortrend agrees on this:

The SH-AWD system is also able to send 70% torque to the rear so having a RWD is not that important although desirable, even though the Santa-fe is not a RWD vehicle.
Performance-wise the RDX whips the santa-fe, i wont even argue any further about this.

Colour me impressed by RDX and acura for making a superb engine very close in quality to my 135's 3.0L turbo even though the beamer has a larger displacement.

Saintor

You are mistaken. I see no 3.3L for 2010 only the 276HP 3.5L. And my figure of 20/26mpg for the 276HP 3.5L is correct.

pickler

i thought we were comparing 2007 hyundai vs 2007 acura. btw the 20/26 figure is for the FWD version. haven't seen any official figure for the 4WD fuel economy gov and consumerguide haven't tested the 4WD yet.

but as for the 2007-2009 santa-fe 4wd v6 17-24mpg is correct:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymod...Santa_Fe.shtml

again i cant find any official 4WD mpg figures but i did post a thread on hyundai forum asking for any reports by 2010 owners.

krio

They are putting on sale the wagon as a NEW 2011 model, when the sedan TSX is already 3 years old: with 200hp and 5AT...
The wagon had to be launched 4-6 months after the sedan, as ALL the clever brands in the world do. Except Acura, of course.
It's 5 months, I repeat 5 MONTHS, from April, that we got 6-7 photos of the wagon TSX on the Acura site "Future vehicles"... What are they waiting for? The 2015?

pickler

is the tsx-wagon supposed to compete with the bmw 5 GT?? if it is a 200hp 5AT is laughable. Also that will make the cross-tour pointless. it will probably follow the zdx in terms of sales.

BMW 5 GT:
300/400hp, RWD/AWD, 8 speed AT, 19/28MPG, cargo 60ft, $53,000

also if its competing with the venza, it doesnt having any major advantages going for it.

Saintor

Wrong. It is there.

winstrolvtec

The TSX wagon already exists in Europe they are just bringing it here. It's a very low cost project and Acura does not expect to sell many that's why it's only I4 and FWD. It's like the TSX V6, not going to sell but it's needed for marketing and vehicle positioning.

It is to compete with the other entry wagons. Like the A4, CTS, and 3 wagons. The crosstour is a larger mainstream product with more performance and utility and available 4WD and a V6. I think the Crosstour makes the TSX wagon pointless but I guess it's really an experiment to see if Acura has a future in wagons.

pickler

wait so no v6 and awd for tsx wagon?? it's like a camry outperform an is350 isn't it? the venza even has awd & v6 options.

derosee

Agree. Their fleet is considerably smaller.

saturno_v

It seems to me that Acura is taking the technical-marketing approach of Audi...FWD for the less expensive version of its models and AWD for the top of the range...it seems logical to me.

My questions for the experts are:

1) Are we ever going to see a TSX SH-AWD?? It would be a tremendous competitor to the Audi A4

2) Are we ever going to see a V8 (or a dual turbocharge V6)Acura??

3) Why Acura, being the first luxury brand born in 1986, has snobbed the upper echelons of the upscale market with a V8 engines? The Rl is a tremendous car but is somehow handicapped by the lack of a more potent engine...people are start to quastion what the real flagship is...the RL or the TL...

Colin

1) Probably not, cause at that point it's no longer "entry level"

2) No (less than 10% chance IMO)

3) Because the "Honda way" is to to more with less. All the great Honda/Acuras from the past have used a smaller engine than the competitors. Legend, Type-R Integra, NSX, S2000 all battled 6's and 8's with 4's and 6's.

SRK85

Acura does not try and compete with German autos especially Audi. An RL type S with a v8 would be sweet. However I doubt it will happen. Acura will forever be a brand that offers more technology over performance.

AZuser

Fixed

loulinjai

Honda/Acura is going to update the K and J series (with the J series replacement confirmed to be in development), with the new family of 4's and 6's to be implemented in models as early as 2012 (most likely as a 2013 model). It will be interesting to see what they will be doing, especially since they will not be developing a V8 for the mass market. I personally believe the new engines will be direct injected, and forced fed motors to be likely (since no V8). I guess we will wait and see!

As for the TSX, there will be no SH-AWD for the current generation (confirmed by Honda Corporate). But you never know what will happen for next gen. A V6 wouldn't fit in a 1G TSX, but we got a V6 for the second gen, but a SH-AWD drivetrain will not fit in the 2G. When they do the 3G, it is possible to be designed to carry a AWD layout.

Spike TL

It would be nice to see a Acura with a V8 in it, but it most likely will not happen.

The TL is more of the flagship car for Acura at the moment right now, and the TSX is just behind it.

I'm still waiting for my dealership to get are first TSX wagon in.

Shift_Acura

I have respect for Acura because I dont think any other "Luxury" brand would have survived so long making all their cars on a FWD Accord platform.

Think of all the money those bastards saved by not putting much effort in the Acura brand. Yet they still outsell Infiniti by a large margin even though Infiniti has V8/RWD platform and even a seperate V6/RWD FM platform from their Nissan counterpart.

dom

True. They've done pretty good considering what they've had to work with.

pttl

So this is why the TSX is now the size of the 3G TL? And does that mean that the next TSX, in order to fit the AWD system, will become a bloated pig like the 4G TL? If so....

F23A4

Indeed!! It sort or reminds me of Nissan's versatility with the FM platform (though Nissan has two other platforms working for it). That said, they're on borrowed time.

If Hyundai can establish a brand identity (the lack of which is that brand's only apparent caveat), it could be the death knell for Acura and a wake up call to the likes of Lexus and Infiniti. (And honestly -- and in my own opinion -- only the Acura reputation makes my 09 MDX standout notably from a well appointed Veracruz).

fsttyms1

I think the majority of their success is them being able to ride the coat tails of the Honda reliability that so many came to like and expect over the years.

Shift_Acura

I think they did more than just pretty well. I would like to see Toyota or Nissan try to build their premium brand around a Camry or Altima Platform. They continue to outsell Infiniti even with the Beak/Limited Engine choices/Limited features (this really boggles my mind as I truly believe Infiniti has a better Line up across the board than Acura)

Other brands like Hyundai are starting to catch up now. Honda needs to put more $$ into R&D for Acura. I have no idea how they are gonna shape up their brand in the future.
To be competitive in the premium division, they should have a RWD/V8 platform. But do they also NEED a RWD/V6 platform like Infiniti or Lexus? What would happen to the TSX or TL if they came out with a new platform? I dont see any advantage in making either RWD since the TSX already handles well and the TL is available with AWD.

SRK85

I would love to see a turbo too. Like a TSX SH-AWD 2.0T which could compete against Audi. Its a shame Lexus and Infinti offers AWD on all their models, they why doesn't Acura do it. But then again I view Acura as a segment in between say basic cars like Honda, Hydunai, etc. But not on the same level as Audi, BMW, Mercedes, or even Infinti.

dom

Couple of things to keep in mind. Lexus is far more successful than Acura. So not building around a Camry obviously has its advantages. Although the ES is still hugely successful.

I think the problem with Infiniti has more to do with the limited dealer network and limited product offerings. They really don't have an MDX/RX competitor and don't have an entry level offering. The FX and EX are niche vehicles at best.

Where would Acura be right now without the MDX? Especially over the last couple of years.

is300eater

seriously? people are still dwelling on the whole "V8" thing? lol

dom

May not be about V8's anymore (although every other relevant 'Lux' make has them and will for some time) Power still plays a huge part in that segment. And NA 6's just aren't enough anymore.

winstrolvtec

Well half of the success Lexus has enjoyed, and not only now but over the years, comes directly from the Camry in the ES, so this is not a bad concept no matter who uses it or what the enthusiast crowd thinks.

I will argue that the 3.7L Acura uses is still competitive enough against the likes of the others FI engines for now. Infiniti does a great job with it's 3.7L despite it being NA and Acura doesn't neeed much to get another 20-25 HP out of the current J series. I would imagine the next one would be at least 330 HP, if they get back to their roots and are commited to NA for the V6 product then we might see 350 HP in top form.

But beyond that for any kind of V8 power substitute they will need more but probably won't even offer that because the sales percenatges of V8's just don't support it. Wonder what they are working on as far as a performance hybrid that the next RL is supposed to be which has V8 type power and who knows what kind of fuel economy.

RWD is just not needed with the type of AWD system they use. It's as close to a rear wheel as almost any AWD gets and the results speak for themselves while still having superior all weather capabilities. They even have tweaks that allow up to almost a full rear bias with the normal torque vectoring as well. It's a platform that allows them to tweak it as nearly a full front drive, full rear drive or more even split in distributions and maybe a variable combo of all in the future or some type of driver adjustments.

The 6AT is finally here, they are currently repositioning their sedan lineup, a smaller sub model is coming and more TSX variants, revised styling, and a new flagship RL. They they have good pieces in place they just need to implement and execute them properly and they could be a top three luxury brand but that's easier said then done.

Shift_Acura

I agree obviously Lexus is far more successful than Acura. But my point was that they would not be half as successful if ALL their cars were based off the Camry FWD platform.

Infiniti build their cars on the FM platform but the EX and FX are not successful in their segments mainly due to smaller interior dimensions. Is that something to do with the limitations of the platform? So where is the advantages in investing in the RWD platform if the only real successful vehicle is the G?

And lets not forget the G would not stand a chance if it were offered only in FWD and AWD like the TL

Rapture

I think Acura needs to tap back into the "driving enthusiast" type of demographic. Excluding the 3g TL, I've seen more Integras on the road than any other Acura combined.

I mean, a follow-up to the Integra isn't what I'm suggesting. I just think that from the looks of Acuras line-up, the only car that comes close to something that would cater to a driving enthusiast is the RDX. Definitely not saying the RDX is an ugly car, but I think a lot of people who belong to that demographic would be turned off by the looks. They'd want more of a coupe, sedan, roadster type of look.

Just my