Aegir

It's so hard to find baselines to make comparisons from in these discussions. The MotorTrend article you reference is a good one for 5AT vs. 5AT comparison. The G35 demonstrated clear performance advantages in this comparison.

I'd like to see a comparison of 6MT variants of the two cars, since performance-oriented consumers will likely tend to gravitate towards these models. Acura makes several key additions to the TL in 6MT form that should help close the gap. I don't know of any comparisons out there (same time, same place, same testers). I would not at all be surprised if the G35 once again held led the TL in raw performance ability, but the lead would likely be slimmer than the 5AT comparison.

Aegir

The problem with these comparisons is that the crucial differences between the cars cannot be expressed in raw data. They have to be experienced to be understood. That's why many people who have not driven a BMW do not understand what the fuss is about. If my primary objective was to blast through the hills and mountains on a beautiful summer day with the windows down and the radio off, the car I would enjoy doing it in most would be the 330i. Sorry, the other two may have more power, but the BMW would be more fun to drive. Looking at the numbers won't tell you why that is.

When I bought my car, the 330i, TL, and G35 were the top 3. The 330i was dropped because it was a bit smaller than I wanted, I did not feel it was a good value, and I had concerns about total ownership costs for a car that I intended to drive for five years and well over 100K miles.

I considered the TL and G35 roughly equal - in the same class. The key decision points were not based on numbers. I considered their cost, reliability, and performance to be similar. The 'soft' factors that swayed my decision included: I preferred the TL's interior and exterior appearance, my wife thought the front end of the G35 was ugly, I was very happy with my last Honda purchase, and there was a local Acura dealer and the closest Infiniti dealer was about 40 miles away. Most important, when I got in the TL I felt right at home. It was a good match, so good that I drove the car home.

Hopefully this post will make up for my previous jab - though I am disappointed that no one picked up on my obscure, yet particularly pertinent to this thread, 70's R&B reference. :'( You guys need to get out more!

missmyprelude

Car and Driver did the 6MT vs. 6MT comparison. The TL won in some of the performance tests (0-60, 1/4 mile, braking) and the G35 won in some others (skidpad, 0-100/120, top speed). The summary was the same - they don't like FWD, so the TL came in 3rd behind the 325i and the G35.

Like I mentioned in one of my previous posts, I wish they gave us the track lap times for this group. That would have been interesting...

missmyprelude

There is no clear definition of a sports car. The purist will say it has to be a 2 seater and RWD. Some will base it on performance figures. However, there are always cars that don't quite fit into any one mold. Thus, the "sports sedan" or "sport coupe" or "sport tourer" or "sport luxury".

DopeTL04

Maybe this thread http://www.acura-tl.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88383 will show you some G35 owners what the TL does to former G35 owners!! Not too also mention once again, the G looks like :shit: !!!! How can you drive such an ugly looking car just boggles my mind!

quikac

Dope,

I love my Acura, but here's what the guys at Motor Trend said about the G35's appearance...

"Unlike the more heavy-handed surface excitement and fussy detailing of the Z-Car, the G35's design is handsome, masculine, and tasteful. Call it an Armani suit wearing Reeboks." I don't think that's a definition of ugly, why do you?

What you call "ugly," the MT folks call "handsome and tasteful." Now, I wonder who's been around cars more and has a true apprecaition for automobile styling? The MT magazine, or some guy named "Dope" who just spews profanity?

Lay off the G35 crowd -- you're giving us TL owners a bad name...

Q

boltjames

The M3, the Evo, and the STi are sports cars. No doubt.

The TL Sedan, G35 Sedan, and BMW 3 Sedan are not sports cars. They're luxury cars that have some oh-by-the-way sporty tendencies. Beefy engines, tight suspensions, strong accelleration. Very nice. They're luxury cars first, sporty features a distant second.

Since those are the vehicles in question, who cares about the M3, the Evo, and the STi in this discussion?

BJ

DopeTL04

So I guess you are one of those that takes someone else opinion and cant have a mind of his own. I could care less what someone wrote in a magazine. Does that help the G look any better?? NOpe not at all!! Its still a very ugly car, and infiniti needs to do something about it....if you like ugly cars, than that is your problem!!

The G will never come close to the appearance of the TL's exterior and interior!! And the miniscule edge it has in performance, does not help the G in any way due to is A$$ looking interior and exterior design!! If infiniti is such a luxury car brand, why not design the damn car like its a luxury car!!!!

EZZ

My point is that the 3 series and the G35 run on a SPORTS CAR chassis. You lower the G an inch, put stiffer springs, and upgrade the exhaust, you WILL essentially have a heavier Z car (All this will cost about $2k). Yes, they ARE that close. Granted the G will weigh 200 lbs but you can always gut out the interior

Sorry, but the TL chassis isn't up to par in the sport department. The Accord chassis was never meant to be used in a racing series (unlike the the Z where Nissan does compete with that chassis). I can respect your subjective opinions about the G being ugly, both inside and out, and how the TL is a better luxury car. However, to say the G is attempting luxury first is wrong. It is a sports sedan and currently, it is the BEST "sports" sedan under $40k.

quikac

Dope,

Actually, I do have a mind of my own, and I'd rather rely on articulate representations of opinions of automotive experts who have been around the business for a long, long time, rather than some guy named "Dope."

Take a pill...

Q

DopeTL04

Oh please tell me how to become an expert on making a cosmetic Judgement! He might be some kind of expert on cars, but he is also a critic. Most people would agree the TL looks way better than the G35 and that is all that matters! If you dont see that, than its time for a prescription ugrade on your contact lenses!! :sqntfawk:

NightRider

Sorry to say, but Nissan/Infiniti has probably always had more sport oriented cars than Honda/Acura. It has always been a trait of Acura to be towards luxury more than sportiness, while Infiniti has been more towards sportiness than luxury. This is why Infiniti has the 340HP M45 too. Now recently, as with the 04 TL and 05RL Acura is really trying to bridge this gap. I saw the M45 recently and the interior is much better than the G35 (as it should be for the price). Point being, I'm sure that Acura and Infiniti both have tricks up their sleeves in the upcoming years. I could almost bet that by the time the "4th gen" TL comes out and the "2nd gen(3rd?)" G35 come out, the will be nearly indentical in interior quality and features, and performance. Now, it all depends on whether you like the interior/exterior layouts of each company. I have always liked the interior/exterior layouts of Honda better than Nissan. Just my opinions.

EDIT: To add relevancy to the post, the 3 series BMW is also a great car combining sport and luxury, but I have never fancied the interiors. Just as I would usually pick a Honda/Acura over Inifinti/Nissan, I would usually pick a Benz over a BMW because I like the overall car better.

shodog

Man you have more waffling than a Waffle House restaurant. In your first post you say four door cars are family sedans that are not sports sedans. Then contrary to your previous post, you correct your self by saying the M3, the Evo, and the STi are sports cars. What makes those sports cars and the G35 not? The G35 shares the same underpinnings as the 350Z with two added doors. Would you say that the 350Z is not a sports car? It obvious your not clear in your thought processes on what is or isn’t a sports sedan.


Beauty in is in the eye of the beholder. You cannot deny that the TL has seriously ripped off many of the interior and exterior design cues from the 1998 ford mustang. The TL looks dated. I like the G35 lines. The front end and roof line is reminiscent of the Porsche 911. It has been said many times that G35 is the sedan Porsche would have made.

missmyprelude

I disagree. Only recently has Nissan/Infiniti been building sporty cars. They are practically a brand new company in the past few years. Prior to this, they didn't build many cars that were worth looking into. Now, almost everything they build is good and is somewhat performance oriented. Name a decent Infiniti before the G35? Most of them were simply rebadged (literally) Nissans. I = Maxima, G = Sentra. Probably not bad cars, but not anything like what they're building now.

As for Nissan, remember the old Altima? The Z went away for a while. The 240SX is gone. I can't think of anything sporty in their lineup for a while except the Maxima.

Now, Honda/Acura... The NSX has been around for the long haul. The Civic is always available in some sporty version. And even the Accord has been available in a 2 door version. Don't forget the Integra (Type R mean anything?) and the RSX. Now they have the TSX and even the TL is sportier than ever.

Although Honda definitely caters to a conservative crowd, there's still plenty of "sport" available in their lineup.

brahtw8

Cars don't have chassis anymore, they have platforms. And yes, the G35 platform is shared by the Z car, but it is also shared by a number of other more pedestrian cars from Nissan/Infiniti, including the Murano and FX SUVs, IIRC.

This is another pointless semantic argument about what is a 'sports car' and what is a 'luxury car' and it is never going to be resolved. I don't wish I had a G35, and I don't care if G35 owners wish they bought a TL.

BTW, the 'Accord' chassis, at least the Euro Accord (TSX here) does go racing, and does quite well. Look for them in touring car races near you.

boltjames

Boltjames: "We love vanilla. The TL is the best vanilla ice cream out there."

EZZ: "The TL is not chocolate! The G35 is the best chocolate ice cream out there and the TL isn't close!"

Boltjames: "Good for the G35 that it's great chocolate. We don't like chocolate. We like vanilla. That's why we bought the TL. Enjoy your chocolate. We like vanilla."

EZZ: "You guys are so ridiculous. The G35 is the best chocolate and nothing you say about the TL is going to change that fact. The TL is not good chocolate. Not at all."

BJ

Aegir

What, exactly, is not up to par in the TL/Accord chassis? It is well engineered, refined, and very capable. This is essentially the same chassis (albiet larger) as the TSX, which is used in road racing series and is successful there - with FWD and vs. RWD competitors.

The best sports sedan under $40K is an Acura TL A-SPEC. :P

shodog

There is no denying that the G35 has turned it around for Infiniti. But to say that Nissan didn’t have any sporty cars in the past is naïve. You may have not noticed them, but they were there. Do the 300ZX, the maxima, the Sentra SE-R ring a bell. Just a few years ago, Nissan wasn’t doing so hot. Then the new CEO from Fiat stepped in and turned it around. The car industry is a competitive and fast changing market. If you sit back on your laurels like Honda has, your going to get left behind.

Making the comparison between the Maxima and I35 and Sentra and G20 by saying “Most of them were simply rebadged (literally) Nissans” is naïve also. While these cars share the same platform, the body work and interior are designed differently. Using your mindset the same correlation can be drawn between the TL and accord which you well know that they share platforms but body and interior are radically different.


Bzzt, the Murano is a front wheel drive car that shares its platform with the Altima and Maxima. I don’t fault car companies for sharing platforms between different models of cars. What you have to think about is whether or not the chassis is worth sharing. If Honda would have made the 3rd generation TL a RWD or AWD, they would have had a runaway hit on their hands. The G35 has received so many accolades because there is finally a Japanese version of a BMW at a lot lower price.

The G35 goes racing also since it is AKA the Skyline in Japan. I don’t know if anyone has been “inspired” in Japan to race a TL

DARK6mt

iTrader: (1)

This is so funny. Out of all car owners today, G35 Sedan owners are the most defensive.

shodog

What you fail to mention is that many RWD race cars have to race with a weight penalty to even out the competition with the FWD cars. In all honesty, race cars are a poor comparison. those cars have stripped interiors and parts and pieces have been moved around in them to try and equal out the weight balance in them. Most peoples cars don't have a fuel cell where the passenger seat should be.

EZZ

The G35 is not chocolate! Its dirty vanilla

EZZ

The TL A-Spec is over $40k MSRP (with Nav) :P

I didn't know the TSX was in competition. Honda usually races with its RWD platforms (and does very well). I always thought the TSX should have been a RWD S2000 platform sedan.

brahtw8

Yes, my mistake on the Murano, which shares its platform with the Altima, Quest and Maxima.

I should not have lumped it in with the FX, which uses the Infiniti G35/Nissan 350 Z FM (Front Midship) platform.

BTW, given the sales numbers it appears Acura does have a runaway hit on their hands, even with FWD. People are still waiting for 6MT/Navi TLs, AFAIK, and dealers are still charging close to MSRP for such cars.

shodog

Your right, sales have been brisk. They were that way in the beginning for the G35 also. Had they made the TL in RWD or AWD would have brought the people who normally shop for BMW and Audis into the Acura showrooms. there are quite a few people out there that won't even consider the TL because it's FWD.

DARK6mt

iTrader: (1)

And there are quite a few people out there what won't even consider the G35 because it RWD.

There are plenty of plus and minus for both.

Senneca01

Yes, it is funny. Maybe because some TL owners have extremely low self-esteem. Some of them are mature, but then there are others who like to have a circle-jerk once a week to convince themselves of how great their cars are by putting down other brands.

Why is it that no one ever hardly talks about the TL on the G35 forums or on 3-Series forums, but it comes up here at least once a week? Maybe because G and 3 owners could care less about the TL? Can someone please explain?

TL_6SPD

I am sorry but you are so wrong here. Nissan has been making sporty cars for years and never has stopped.

Lets start back from the early 90s. Maxima = 4DSC (4 door sports car), 300zx, Sentra SE-R, Nissan 240sx, and we can even go over to japan, Sylvia, Skyline, etc. Later in the 90s, 240sx still, 300zx still, 200sx se-r still. It has continued. I have yet to see Honda make something other than the S2000. Honda/Acura are into economy and luxury more than sporty / sport/luxury.

brahtw8

I am one of the people that normally shop german cars. I replaced a BMW 3 series with the TL. The 6MT was what brought me back into the fold, along with the realization that my BMW was not getting any weekend/track duty since I got the NSX. Having a great relationship with my Acura dealer, and a palatable dislike of the local german car dealerships was another factor. If I had gotten another BMW, it would have been serviced by a local independent shop and/or a dealership 60 miles away rather than the Milwaukee-area dealers.

For me, living in Wisconsin and putting around 25k miles a year on my daily driver, the TL's FWD was a plus. I would prefer AWD, and might even trade my TL in on another TL if they go AWD, but AWD has drawbacks in terms of weight and fuel economy. I don't need my TL to lap Road America, just get me to work and back. Since it is summer, I find myself wishing I had gotten an E39 540i, or an E36 or E46 M3. When winter comes, or it rains, or I have to transport more than two people, the TL returns to favor.

TL_6SPD

I see it the other way around.

DARK6mt

iTrader: (1)

Actually...ummm...mr.noobie, this is site made for people who are very excited about TL's and it continues to be so. Don't get so conceited, G35 is not the only car that comes up. We have mentioned BMW more than G35. However since the "price" range is so damn close it happens to come up very often.

Not everyone puts other cars down, but if someone does so what? This place is made for discussions and some times arguments come out. What gets me is that 'NO OTHER CAR OWNERS ACTUALLY SIGNS IN TO DEFEND THIER CAR, ..... OTHER THAN G35 OWNERS'

I have no answer to this question to why they are like that. It not like we(TL Owners) are the only ones say the things that we say. G35 COUPE owners shit on SEDAN owners when the Coupe came out. Now TL owners say some things and you guys are on fire. EVERYONE here checked out G35 before they purchased the TL. Now they have signed up at the "TL" site to talk and praise their purchase, to discuss and have a good time. IF a member says something that really isn't "correct" , an army of G35 correction team comes in to save the day.

All I gotta say is that we(TL owners) arn't the only ones say the things that we say about G35. I think its semi-Ugly, so does G-COUPE owners(NOT ALL!!!) and many many many of my colleagues.

my 0.2 cent :sqntfawk:

DARK6mt

iTrader: (1)

OF COURSE YOU DO. READY TO DEFEND YOUR CAR?

TL_6SPD

Because alot of g35 owners use to own a CL/TL. That is usually why they are here. Or they considered the TL like I did, but after comparing them for over a week in multiple test drives, the G35 was the car for me.

TL_6SPD

I have no need to defend my car when it defends itself and wins the awards it deserves.

DARK6mt

iTrader: (1)

Aiight, that's cool. And I have come down to different conclusion. YOu have g35 I have TL. done deal.

Senneca01

As not often documented? As not often documented by who? Somone who secretely looks at porn behind his wife's back? Sorry, but statements made by people with no class are meaningless.

Why don't you learn how to spell? You spell and write like a 3 year old kid rather than a 40 year old man. Infiniti is spelled with an "I" at the end, not a "Y". You're giving other Acura owners a bad name.

You sound like a badge snob more than anything else, and you have no right to be. Acura has absolutely no status over Lexus and Infiniti other than it being an upscale brand of Honda.

Oh and BTW Einstein, Infiniti is having their best sales year ever since they were introduced in the United States and once again this year, Lexus is killing Acura in sales. Don't even try and compare the two brands, because it is an insult to Lexus if you do.

You know what, Acura is doing well and is doing great things, but it's ignorant fanboys, cheerleaders, and loyalty thugs like you that bring down the brand.

DARK6mt

iTrader: (1)

now you are in denial. If, and only if, you have no need to defend, then why is it that only time you ever contribute to this website is going after people who felt G35 was no good????????? I mean, if I thought G35 was "acceptable" I would have gotten it as well.

We all have different views on things. However, you want everyone to think like you, if this wasn't true, we won't be arguing.

shodog

Isn't it better to hear both sides of a story rather than the rederick from one?

NightRider

Seneca, if this is true that 3 and G owners do not talk about TL on forums (sources?), then it must be because they are already on the TL forum trolling! There are countless defenders of G35's here, most of which do not care to view objectively but rather would die putting down the TL and promoting the G35. I understand there are plenty of rebuttles from TL owners, but when you come to a TL forum what can you expect?!?!? They must be too ignorant to realize that a car doesn't have to be RWD to be great. I am unzealous enough to realize both are great cars. In my book the G35 has the slight edge on performance while the TL is a better "luxury" car. The BMW falls somewhere in between with interior and exterior, while performance is about on par with both. If you rated them all with points of different criteria 0-20 (10 performance, 10 looks and layout of the car), they would all 3 be in the 17-20 range.

Aegir

No, I think racing is an accurate, and perhaps the only, indicator of ultimate chassis capability. That is what I was addressing, the comment that the Acura chassis was "not up to par." The racing examples demonstrate the heritage of the TL chassis and its ultimate capability. As far as weight, the TSX race weight (2650) is within 100 pounds of the 325i (2700), c230 (2750), and A4 (2650-awd) in Speed World Challenge.

Getting back to the real world, to say that the TL platform is subpar because it is shared with the Accord is not accurate or fair. The TL chassis is a stiff, solid foundation with an aggressive (for an OEM 4 door sedan) state of tune - spring rates, ride height, wheel/tire sizes and profile. It's very capable and puts up good numbers. In 6MT and A-Spec variations, the TL certainly holds its own. Does it have weaknesses - yes. Specifically, in stock form, tires (el-42), soft dampening, and in 5AT form - 100 more pounds over the front, no LSD, no Brembos, and small sway bars. Are these faults enough to call the car subpar? I don't think so - though if anything the el-42's might push it there.

Aegir

http://www.realtimerl.com/cars/tsx.htm

No arguments regarding the s2000 platform. Damn, that would be nice.