Is Photography Dead?
Is Photography Dead?
Thoughts?
http://www.newsweek.com/id/73349
An excerpt...
http://www.newsweek.com/id/73349
An excerpt...
Digitalization has made much of art photography's vast variety possible. But it's also a major reason that, 25 years after the technology exploded what photography could do and be, the medium seems to have lost its soul. Film photography's artistic cachet was always that no matter how much darkroom fiddling someone added to a photograph, the picture was, at its core, a record of something real that occurred in front of the camera. A digital photograph, on the other hand, can be a Photoshop fairy tale, containing only a tiny trace of a small fragment of reality. By now, we've witnessed all the magical morphing and seen all the clever tricks that have turned so many photographers—formerly bearers of truth—into conjurers of fiction. It's hard to say "gee whiz" anymore.
Originally Posted by fdl
I had many of the same thoughts prior to switching from film and still voice these same opinions after moving on to a DSLR. IMO, a lot of the skill involved in capturing an image just right from the get-go is being lost to a different kind of skill --- knowing how to manipulate digital media. Both are talents, they're just different skills.
Originally Posted by srika
Film photography may be "dead".

Coming from a complete noob, I have a perfect-condition Canon AE1 and a brand new Canon S5, & there's pretty much nothing that will get me to learn photography on the film camera. It's entirely too much trouble to find the right film, have it developed (and I'm not even going to consider thinking about pondering developing them myself), and then having to get someone to put them on the computer for easy sharing, or scanning them in myself.
So far as learning how to take good photographs, it's a lot easier to just point..and shoot. If the shot is all kinds of jacked up, I just delete the pic and go on - no $$ wasted on the learning curve. A lot of this seems really
, though.
Originally Posted by srika
Film photography may be "dead".
The ability to manipulate images has always been there. It's easier now with PS, but I don't think that means photography has lost its soul. I think some hard-core advocates of film would argue that it has, but I don't think it is true.
I think the instant feedback of digital makes it easier to learn the basics and it makes photography more accesible to more people, and less of a "dark art," like it was for many in the film days. I've learned more in 3.5 years than I did in 25 years previous.
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I dont think digital imaging can be blamed for the 'death' of photography. Rather I think the blame goes to automatic exposure metering and various other features that turn the dSLR into a P&S.
Not that I dont appreciate those features, but... sometimes I want less work done for me by the camera.
Understood that my consumer Rebel is lacking a lot of what the pro cameras have, but the light meter is terrible, the manual focus is a guessing game at best.
I used to have an old Minolta film camera that had a ghetto old analog light meter in the viewfinder... I would kill to have that old thing in my dSLR.
Not that I dont appreciate those features, but... sometimes I want less work done for me by the camera.
Understood that my consumer Rebel is lacking a lot of what the pro cameras have, but the light meter is terrible, the manual focus is a guessing game at best.
I used to have an old Minolta film camera that had a ghetto old analog light meter in the viewfinder... I would kill to have that old thing in my dSLR.
You still have true photographers who will wait all day to catch the perfect scene in the perfect light, framing it just as they would like it printed. Of watch an entire (sporting) event hoping they capture that one moment that defines the event.
Then you have the hobbyists who take pictures of whatever they find interesting, not terribly concerned about every detail that makes the shot. They either feel they can fix it when they get home or delete it if it doesn't come out as expected.
Both will end up keeping only a fraction of what they shoot, but there is usually more thought and planning put into the former. Not to say the latter will not take good shots, just that their initial mindset and goal are a bit different.
So, I say no. You just have a lot more people in the hobbyist category. Myself included.
Then you have the hobbyists who take pictures of whatever they find interesting, not terribly concerned about every detail that makes the shot. They either feel they can fix it when they get home or delete it if it doesn't come out as expected.
Both will end up keeping only a fraction of what they shoot, but there is usually more thought and planning put into the former. Not to say the latter will not take good shots, just that their initial mindset and goal are a bit different.
So, I say no. You just have a lot more people in the hobbyist category. Myself included.
Also, after having given it some thought, I think that the ability for people to easily share & show off their work on the internet has also had a pretty big impact on the aura of photography in general. Anyone and everyone can take a shitty snapshot (or a few thousand of them) and make hundreds of copies in a matter of seconds. As a result, they can be posted on the internet and seen by thousands of people in a matter of hours.
This seems to dilute the good pictures that are out there - the ones that used to be seen by a lot of people because the person that took it was proud & took the time & effort to have it seen en mass.
This seems to dilute the good pictures that are out there - the ones that used to be seen by a lot of people because the person that took it was proud & took the time & effort to have it seen en mass.
Originally Posted by waTSX
On the contrary to photgraphy being dead, I think it's more popular than ever.
How is that even remotely possible? The medium certainly looks alive, well and, if anything, overpopulated. There are hordes of photographers out there, working with back-to-basics pinhole cameras and pixeled images measured in gigabytes, with street photography taken by cell phones and massive photo "shoots" whose crews, complexity and expense resemble those of movie sets.
Originally Posted by waTSX
On the contrary to photgraphy being dead, I think it's more popular than ever.
Yes, the article states that its more popular than ever, but argues that the original soul of it is dead.
Thinking about it some more (and have a little more time)... I do think you had to be more "creative" and innovative with film photography to do the really artsy stuff. And, you had to be very focused and directed about what you wanted to do, because you couldn't waste anything if you wanted to be efficient. But in the digital world, you find people trying to emulate hallmarks of film cameras (such as the Lomo) - so in that respect I don't think the foundations and advantages of film photography are ever going to vanish.
On the other hand, I do feel like photography is less of an "art" form these days - you try to do something creative or get a different look from a photograph and its frowned upon more often than not. More people seem interested in "realism" and "as is" rather than processed. If you do a picture with lots of processing and jack up the colors, you'll get people saying it's "overdone" or too stylized. Show a good landscape picture as-shot (with good exposure and other technical details) and chances are nobody is going to say "it needs post processing". Rather, it will probably be greeted with positive feedback.
What do you think the photography greats would have to say about the state of photography today? About taking a picture and bringing it into Lightroom and processing it? About cropping? I think the digital age has made it OK to be lazy with pics - I mean things like, how you no longer have to be frugal about taking pics - take as many as you want. And, it's kind of sad in a way. But at the same time, you can't help but appreciate the convenience of digital - a convenience which outweighs the price of film photography considerably.
The specific "art" of doing film photography, may be (arguably) dead. But (as mentioned earlier) there is a different "art" in digital photography. An art so different, I don't think it's comparable to film. In terms of progress though, I don't think it's a bad thing. Think about technology in any industry. Why don't we use typewriters at work anymore? Why do we use robots to make cars? Why is AT&T closing its pay phone business? etc.
On the other hand, I do feel like photography is less of an "art" form these days - you try to do something creative or get a different look from a photograph and its frowned upon more often than not. More people seem interested in "realism" and "as is" rather than processed. If you do a picture with lots of processing and jack up the colors, you'll get people saying it's "overdone" or too stylized. Show a good landscape picture as-shot (with good exposure and other technical details) and chances are nobody is going to say "it needs post processing". Rather, it will probably be greeted with positive feedback.
What do you think the photography greats would have to say about the state of photography today? About taking a picture and bringing it into Lightroom and processing it? About cropping? I think the digital age has made it OK to be lazy with pics - I mean things like, how you no longer have to be frugal about taking pics - take as many as you want. And, it's kind of sad in a way. But at the same time, you can't help but appreciate the convenience of digital - a convenience which outweighs the price of film photography considerably.
The specific "art" of doing film photography, may be (arguably) dead. But (as mentioned earlier) there is a different "art" in digital photography. An art so different, I don't think it's comparable to film. In terms of progress though, I don't think it's a bad thing. Think about technology in any industry. Why don't we use typewriters at work anymore? Why do we use robots to make cars? Why is AT&T closing its pay phone business? etc.
The article's main point seems to be that the ease with which digital allows fabrication of truth has been detrimental to photography. In this day and age I think you have to separate photography from "digital imaging." In pre-digital days, did people who made collage art consider their work "photography" even if they took all of the source pictures themselves? I doubt it. In the same vein, I don't see why people who do photographic-based digital imaging would consider their work to be "photography."
It's obviously possible to "lie" in a digitally captured photograph by adding/removing objects. But it's also been possible to do it to some degree with film for 30-40 years. Taking it down a notch, someone may argue that digital allows you to tweak specific colors or the contrast in selected areas of an image. Guess what, that's exactly what the "masters" did in their wet darkrooms. Same things, different tools.
If you want another interesting thought along the same lines, check out Brooks Jensen's editorial column in the November/December issue of Lenswork magazine. He raises the point that in the entire history of photography, the gelatin silver print made by the photographer has been the pinnacle of quality. Any forms of reproductions such as books, posters, ectc.. were always inferior in image quality to the print handmade by the photographer in his/her darkroom. That is no longer the case, commercial printing technology has advanced to the point where offset printing can now produce prints (by the thousands) that have superior image quality to any gelatin silver print and most fine art inkjet prints.
It's obviously possible to "lie" in a digitally captured photograph by adding/removing objects. But it's also been possible to do it to some degree with film for 30-40 years. Taking it down a notch, someone may argue that digital allows you to tweak specific colors or the contrast in selected areas of an image. Guess what, that's exactly what the "masters" did in their wet darkrooms. Same things, different tools.
If you want another interesting thought along the same lines, check out Brooks Jensen's editorial column in the November/December issue of Lenswork magazine. He raises the point that in the entire history of photography, the gelatin silver print made by the photographer has been the pinnacle of quality. Any forms of reproductions such as books, posters, ectc.. were always inferior in image quality to the print handmade by the photographer in his/her darkroom. That is no longer the case, commercial printing technology has advanced to the point where offset printing can now produce prints (by the thousands) that have superior image quality to any gelatin silver print and most fine art inkjet prints.
Last edited by Billiam; Dec 3, 2007 at 01:38 PM.
Originally Posted by srika
I don't like how that article treats film photography as "photography" and "digital technology" as something else..
Originally Posted by srika
The specific "art" of doing film photography, may be (arguably) dead. But (as mentioned earlier) there is a different "art" in digital photography. An art so different, I don't think it's comparable to film. In terms of progress though, I don't think it's a bad thing.
srika - I don't think the PP of photos is what is being questioned here. There is plenty of PP done with film/negatives in darkrooms; however, the "picture" itself is untouched. With digital, though, you can easily take a group picture somewhere and then add in grandma who wasn't able to make it and edit out the homeless guy asking for change. These are the kinds of changes that digital media has made "easy" and loses the "accuracy" of what was shot.
But on the plus side for digital, if these kinds of edits weren't so "easy" then the world would have missed out on Moshzilla and so many other great photochops.
But on the plus side for digital, if these kinds of edits weren't so "easy" then the world would have missed out on Moshzilla and so many other great photochops.
Originally Posted by moeronn
srika - I don't think the PP of photos is what is being questioned here. There is plenty of PP done with film/negatives in darkrooms; however, the "picture" itself is untouched. With digital, though, you can easily take a group picture somewhere and then add in grandma who wasn't able to make it and edit out the homeless guy asking for change. These are the kinds of changes that digital media has made "easy" and loses the "accuracy" of what was shot.
But on the plus side for digital, if these kinds of edits weren't so "easy" then the world would have missed out on Moshzilla and so many other great photochops.
But on the plus side for digital, if these kinds of edits weren't so "easy" then the world would have missed out on Moshzilla and so many other great photochops.

Originally Posted by srika
I don't like how that article treats film photography as "photography" and "digital technology" as something else..
I think its treats photography as strictly the art of taking a well composed shot, vs the art of photo manipulation. It suggests the former is dead.
Originally Posted by fdl
I think its treats photography as strictly the art of taking a well composed shot, vs the art of photo manipulation. It suggests the former is dead.
Originally Posted by revitupwriteitoff

Originally Posted by srika
no, that's not a contradiction - the basis of digital photography is not different than the basis of film photography: taking a picture. When I said they were not comparable, I was talking about what happens after that.
you meant "digital technology" = photoshop, et al
I read "digital technology" = digicams
right?
Originally Posted by moeronn
srika - I don't think the PP of photos is what is being questioned here. There is plenty of PP done with film/negatives in darkrooms; however, the "picture" itself is untouched. With digital, though, you can easily take a group picture somewhere and then add in grandma who wasn't able to make it and edit out the homeless guy asking for change. These are the kinds of changes that digital media has made "easy" and loses the "accuracy" of what was shot.
But on the plus side for digital, if these kinds of edits weren't so "easy" then the world would have missed out on Moshzilla and so many other great photochops.
But on the plus side for digital, if these kinds of edits weren't so "easy" then the world would have missed out on Moshzilla and so many other great photochops.

Originally Posted by revitupwriteitoff
so, generally speaking:
you meant "digital technology" = photoshop, et al
I read "digital technology" = digicams
right?
you meant "digital technology" = photoshop, et al
I read "digital technology" = digicams
right?
Originally Posted by srika
hmm... I don't know. When I read "Photoshop fairy tale", I only thought about PP - which would include manipulation of the physical aspects of a picture, no?
FYI - even with film there are techniques used to add/remove items to an image. They just aren't typically as exact and there is no undo button.
I just wanna say, even in this lazy digital age, I try to compose and frame my shots as best as I can, in camera. Time is also a factor, and that depends on the kind of work you are doing. If you are doing a formal "shoot" you have lots more time to compose and ready the shot. If you are taking pics of people at an event, no, you're not going to stand in front of them for a few minutes readying the shot - you do the best you can with the time you have. I also take many shots without looking in the viewfinder - after doing that enough times you have a good idea of what the frame is and the shots come out better framed than you might think. There is an occasional instance where I'll just fire off a shot just to get a record of it, knowing that I will be cropping it later. But given the circumstances it would be the difference of getting any shot or getting no shot.
Originally Posted by moeronn
I believe "Photoshop fairy tale" refers to adding and/or deleting elements from the photograph/picture. Changing qualities of the image, such as contrast, saturation, brightness, etc. are typically done with film, as well. Just think back to all those Kodak processing commercials where they enhance colors, brightness, etc. as opposed to just taking the true image from the negative. This is done whether you take your film to Photomat or process the images yourself a lab or home darkroom.
FYI - even with film there are techniques used to add/remove items to an image. They just aren't typically as exact and there is no undo button.
FYI - even with film there are techniques used to add/remove items to an image. They just aren't typically as exact and there is no undo button.
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Posted By: Herbie2 @ 12/03/2007 1:35:07 PM
Comment: Manipulaiton of images did not start with Photoshop or the digital era. Over the years I have created images such as a Lake Erie shoreline enhanced by a Maui sunset. I once did a portrait for a family who had never been photographed together as adults. Using a group photo I shot at the father's funeral with spaces left for missing family members, together with a picture from one son's wedding, and a photo of the late father taken at the same son's wedding, I created a formal, family image -- with film -- that never happened. It used to be that many people shot pictures, but the creation of art began in the darkroom. The only change today with digital cameras and Photoshop is that many more people can be creative with less efffort and far less expense.
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Posted By: roberthuesman @ 12/03/2007 1:09:46 PM
Comment: I've always been mistified by the simplicity of photography. What is seen, by the human eye, through the camera lense is the photograph. I personally have always strived to develope my work that way, both in the camera and in the darkroom. Trying not to see what isn't there, but only see what is there and still interesting to the later viewer of a print. I always felt that, like a good joke, if you had to explain it, it was ruind. Same would apply to HOW you achieve the effect . If it wasn't obviously natural and raw, then i'd failed. But even Ansel Adams manipulated his work, knowing full well when he exposed the film in the camera that he would need to adjust what he put there later in in the darkroom. That's how and why he developed his zonal system. I think most photographers, even snapshooters, realize there is a difference between photographic art and something else. It's the vision thing, that counts.
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Posted By: jeffjefferies @ 12/03/2007 11:55:09 AM
Comment: This is a woefully ignorant article. Photography and truth have never been friends. Anyone with a hint of knowledge of the history of the form would know this. From burning in to cropping, to Ansel Adams resizing the moon for effect. The only thing that has changed is that technology allows a greater range of manipulation.
Posted By: Herbie2 @ 12/03/2007 1:35:07 PM
Comment: Manipulaiton of images did not start with Photoshop or the digital era. Over the years I have created images such as a Lake Erie shoreline enhanced by a Maui sunset. I once did a portrait for a family who had never been photographed together as adults. Using a group photo I shot at the father's funeral with spaces left for missing family members, together with a picture from one son's wedding, and a photo of the late father taken at the same son's wedding, I created a formal, family image -- with film -- that never happened. It used to be that many people shot pictures, but the creation of art began in the darkroom. The only change today with digital cameras and Photoshop is that many more people can be creative with less efffort and far less expense.
*
Posted By: roberthuesman @ 12/03/2007 1:09:46 PM
Comment: I've always been mistified by the simplicity of photography. What is seen, by the human eye, through the camera lense is the photograph. I personally have always strived to develope my work that way, both in the camera and in the darkroom. Trying not to see what isn't there, but only see what is there and still interesting to the later viewer of a print. I always felt that, like a good joke, if you had to explain it, it was ruind. Same would apply to HOW you achieve the effect . If it wasn't obviously natural and raw, then i'd failed. But even Ansel Adams manipulated his work, knowing full well when he exposed the film in the camera that he would need to adjust what he put there later in in the darkroom. That's how and why he developed his zonal system. I think most photographers, even snapshooters, realize there is a difference between photographic art and something else. It's the vision thing, that counts.
*
Posted By: jeffjefferies @ 12/03/2007 11:55:09 AM
Comment: This is a woefully ignorant article. Photography and truth have never been friends. Anyone with a hint of knowledge of the history of the form would know this. From burning in to cropping, to Ansel Adams resizing the moon for effect. The only thing that has changed is that technology allows a greater range of manipulation.
No one is saying that there was no image manipulation in the pre-digital era, and no one is saying that all sense of framing a shot is out the window today in the digital era.
I think the point is that the emphasis is now much more heavily on the image manipulation. We spend more time mastering photoshop than we do mastering the art of taking a good photo. Therefore the real heart and soul of photography is gone or changed. (or so the author thinks)
I think the point is that the emphasis is now much more heavily on the image manipulation. We spend more time mastering photoshop than we do mastering the art of taking a good photo. Therefore the real heart and soul of photography is gone or changed. (or so the author thinks)
Originally Posted by fdl
I think the point is that the emphasis is now much more heavily on the image manipulation. We spend more time mastering photoshop than we do mastering the art of taking a good photo. Therefore the real heart and soul of photography is gone or changed. (or so the author thinks)
Originally Posted by fdl
No one is saying that there was no image manipulation in the pre-digital era, and no one is saying that all sense of framing a shot is out the window today in the digital era.
I think the point is that the emphasis is now much more heavily on the image manipulation. We spend more time mastering photoshop than we do mastering the art of taking a good photo. Therefore the real heart and soul of photography is gone or changed. (or so the author thinks)
I think the point is that the emphasis is now much more heavily on the image manipulation. We spend more time mastering photoshop than we do mastering the art of taking a good photo. Therefore the real heart and soul of photography is gone or changed. (or so the author thinks)
Originally Posted by fdl
No one is saying that there was no image manipulation in the pre-digital era, and no one is saying that all sense of framing a shot is out the window today in the digital era.
I think the point is that the emphasis is now much more heavily on the image manipulation. We spend more time mastering photoshop than we do mastering the art of taking a good photo. Therefore the real heart and soul of photography is gone or changed. (or so the author thinks)
I think the point is that the emphasis is now much more heavily on the image manipulation. We spend more time mastering photoshop than we do mastering the art of taking a good photo. Therefore the real heart and soul of photography is gone or changed. (or so the author thinks)
Just as people are mastering Photoshop these days, in the "old days" you had to master the darkroom. The tools are different not really the acts.
I take the article for what it's worth, not much. It's in Newsweek.
Somewhat amusing since I am going back to Salton Sea next week to shoot more, and I am heavily debating on shooting reversal film this time.
It would be the first time I have shot film in a few years...but something about it is saying maybe thats what I should do...
Unless I can find a D3 for rent...then I might have to do that.
It would be the first time I have shot film in a few years...but something about it is saying maybe thats what I should do...
Unless I can find a D3 for rent...then I might have to do that.
Originally Posted by jupitersolo
^^^ Do it, I don't think you're going to find a D3 for rent just yet.
Possibly Samys out here. Or even rent a 5D and a wide and long zoom.
But I feel I got those shot already regardless of the res of the digi.
I'm thinking I want to shoot reversal and cross process the image. I just need to make the sure the lab can do that.
Originally Posted by revitupwriteitoff
I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure you can't just leave your SD1000 on Auto & come out with a pro shot, regardless of how good you are at PS. Otherwise, why are you guys wasting so much damn money? 

If you browse any magazine, or photobook, you will find pictures which could be taken with a SD1000, with enough effort. Or almost any camera, for the most part.
The better the camera equipment though, the more pictures you have the
ability to take, and more importantly - the easier/faster it is to take those pictures.
- Frank
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It's funny, I haven't read the article lately but just took a trip to Hawaii, and I was absolutely amazed by how well the D-SLR has taken off over the last few years, I rarely saw a family w/ a little P&S, everyone seemed to have an SLR








