Porsche: Sales, Marketing, and Financial News
I like th GT-R 
Saw a silver one out on the roads today. It is the first time I have seen one out on the streets. I think it looked cool as hell.
Anyone who doesn't respect this car has got serious problems.
Saw a silver one out on the roads today. It is the first time I have seen one out on the streets. I think it looked cool as hell.
Anyone who doesn't respect this car has got serious problems.
Senior Moderator
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 168,919
Likes: 23,738
'Ring battle goes another round: 2010 GT3 down to 7:40 unofficial
From Motor Authority...
http://www.motorauthority.com/porsch...nofficial.html
Laying claim to the title of the fastest run around the Nurburgring's Nordschleife is one of the most coveted titles among the performance elite carmakers. The latest development from Germany has Porsche claiming a 7 minute 40 second unofficial time during an open test day at the hands of the legendary Walter Rohrl.
Porsche and Nissan's duel over the matter has taken on particular fury, with Porsche accusing Nissan of falsifying times, and continuing to insist that the GT-R isn't capable of anything faster than a 7:54 lap without cheating. Even a borrowed Ferrari 430 Scuderia couldn't muster more than 7:45 around the 'Ring at Porsche's hands, reports Motor Trend.
Nissan, on the other hand, just last week reported setting a 7:27.56 second lap, just 1.1 seconds short of the Corvette ZR-1's 7:26.4 set last year - later lowered to 7:22.4 - but about 5 seconds short of the Viper SRT10 ACR's production car record of 7:22.1 (see the video here).
How will it all shake out in the end? Will the Japanese underdog prove itself victorious despite Porsche's slanderous claims? Will the German giant emerge as the wronged but valiant winner? Only time will tell, but fans on each side will no doubt have their minds made up in the mean time.
Porsche and Nissan's duel over the matter has taken on particular fury, with Porsche accusing Nissan of falsifying times, and continuing to insist that the GT-R isn't capable of anything faster than a 7:54 lap without cheating. Even a borrowed Ferrari 430 Scuderia couldn't muster more than 7:45 around the 'Ring at Porsche's hands, reports Motor Trend.
Nissan, on the other hand, just last week reported setting a 7:27.56 second lap, just 1.1 seconds short of the Corvette ZR-1's 7:26.4 set last year - later lowered to 7:22.4 - but about 5 seconds short of the Viper SRT10 ACR's production car record of 7:22.1 (see the video here).
How will it all shake out in the end? Will the Japanese underdog prove itself victorious despite Porsche's slanderous claims? Will the German giant emerge as the wronged but valiant winner? Only time will tell, but fans on each side will no doubt have their minds made up in the mean time.
I Shoot with a Camera
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 23,025
Likes: 3,610
From: Vancouver BC
I hate to say this, and not that I'd want to see this happen, but one of these days, you're gonna hear about a crash and perhaps the driver dying due to the fact that they're trying so hard to out do each other, pushing the cars pass (waaaaaaaaay pass) the limit of the their abilities (any car).
Isnt that what the drivers are paid to do? and why hasnt nissan responded again? why hasnt porsche challenged nissan to a race. or a legitimate timed event to stop all the whining?
Marketing, thats all it is.
Marketing, thats all it is.
Drifting
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,367
Likes: 1
From: Franklin, Indiana
I hate to say this, and not that I'd want to see this happen, but one of these days, you're gonna hear about a crash and perhaps the driver dying due to the fact that they're trying so hard to out do each other, pushing the cars pass (waaaaaaaaay pass) the limit of the their abilities (any car).
whut
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 331
Likes: 0
From: SC
Nissan baited the hook (exactly as they did with the G35 vs. BMW) and Porsche unfortunately swallowed the hook, line, sinker, rod, and reel. Now the P-car marketing hacks are trapped defending their signature model line against Nissan instead of positioning themselves with Ferrari and Lambo. Unless an official same-day head-to-head duel takes place sanctioned by both parties (and it never will) this will remain a solid win for Nissan.
6G TLX-S
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,224
Likes: 1,181
From: YVR
Everybody lied, that's why. Any open challenge race will reveal that no one is posting their respective actual lap times.
Not just a smell
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 354
Likes: 0
Someday, an RS6 Avant+
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,770
Likes: 1,270
From: Japan
I don't think this issue will be settled as long as there isn't a head to head test, of a normal production model. Basically, you would need someone to go to a dealer, and "buy" one. Then have those cars race.
Personally, I'd love to see that, then the excuses from either side.
Personally, I'd love to see that, then the excuses from either side.
Just use the same drivers that posted the lap times, get together and have at it. Alas, me thinks this will 'end' in rhetoric and not a track showdown. 
Suzuka Master
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,579
Likes: 0
From: Chicago Suburbs
I personally think that Nissan cheats in using "stock" (wink wink) vehicles at the track to make news.
Suzuka Master
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,349
Likes: 3
From: Lower Nazzie, Pa
Originally Posted by F23A4
Just use the same drivers that posted the lap times, get together and have at it. Alas, me thinks this will 'end' in rhetoric and not a track showdown.
Last edited by mrdeeno; May 3, 2009 at 11:48 AM.
Suzuka Master
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,579
Likes: 0
From: Chicago Suburbs
I take it he means the driver of each car that achieved the lap times in question (ie the driver who got their record time for porsche would drive the porsche, and the driver who got their record for nissan drive the nissan), not ONE driver to drive both because that ONE driver may have a driving style preference for one car over the other.
Senior Moderator
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 81,385
Likes: 3,068
From: Appleton WI
I'd like to see Hans Stuck or Walther Rohl drive all three on the same day. The cars need to be bought from a random dealer. No modifications allowed except air pressure in the tires. That will be the great equalizer since I have a very strong opinion that Nissan brings ringers to the track.
Senior Moderator
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 18,015
Likes: 1,736
I take it he means the driver of each car that achieved the lap times in question (ie the driver who got their record time for porsche would drive the porsche, and the driver who got their record for nissan drive the nissan), not ONE driver to drive both because that ONE driver may have a driving style preference for one car over the other.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 950
Likes: 3
From: Los Angeles, CA
I'd like to see Hans Stuck or Walther Rohl drive all three on the same day. The cars need to be bought from a random dealer. No modifications allowed except air pressure in the tires. That will be the great equalizer since I have a very strong opinion that Nissan brings ringers to the track.
Porsche and Nissan can choose whoever they want to drive. In Nissan's case, they would probably stick w/ their test driver Toshio Suzuki.
Suzuka Master
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 8,546
Likes: 0
From: Santa Clarita, CA
2009 Nissan GT-R Varying Test Results - Car and Driver
2009 Nissan GT-R Varying Test Results - Car and Driver
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Q83ZWfuikwk&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Q83ZWfuikwk&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Q83ZWfuikwk&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Q83ZWfuikwk&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
Senior Moderator
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 81,385
Likes: 3,068
From: Appleton WI
I agree about buying the cars straight from random dealers, but I don't agree about using those drivers who are basically professional Porsche race car drivers. As good as Stuck and Rohl are, they may not be familiar enough with a GTR to extract it's maximum performance whereas you can be sure they would know how to get the most out of a GT2 or 911 Turbo.
Porsche and Nissan can choose whoever they want to drive. In Nissan's case, they would probably stick w/ their test driver Toshio Suzuki.
Porsche and Nissan can choose whoever they want to drive. In Nissan's case, they would probably stick w/ their test driver Toshio Suzuki.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 950
Likes: 3
From: Los Angeles, CA
It's like how drag racers are trained to push even harder on the accelerator pedal at the end of the 1/4 mile because, w/o doing this, there's a subconscious tendency for people to naturally lift off the throttle just a bit before the finish line in anticipation of braking.
OTOH, you would know Toshio Suzuki would be pushing the GTR to its absolute limit.
Random cars + best drivers for each respective car = objective results
Random cars + best Porsche drivers = biased results
Senior Moderator
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 81,385
Likes: 3,068
From: Appleton WI
Sure. But, the question is, would they be able to be completely unbiased? The human mind is an interesting thing. Even if Hans Stuck and Walter Rohl both think they are driving the GTR to its limits, they may not really be at some subconscious level.
It's like how drag racers are trained to push even harder on the accelerator pedal at the end of the 1/4 mile because, w/o doing this, there's a subconscious tendency for people to naturally lift off the throttle just a bit before the finish line in anticipation of braking.
OTOH, you would know Toshio Suzuki would be pushing the GTR to its absolute limit.
Random cars + best drivers for each respective car = objective results
Random cars + best Porsche drivers = biased results
It's like how drag racers are trained to push even harder on the accelerator pedal at the end of the 1/4 mile because, w/o doing this, there's a subconscious tendency for people to naturally lift off the throttle just a bit before the finish line in anticipation of braking.
OTOH, you would know Toshio Suzuki would be pushing the GTR to its absolute limit.
Random cars + best drivers for each respective car = objective results
Random cars + best Porsche drivers = biased results
How about taking the ZR1 driver and professional racer Jan Magnussen? Or would he sand bag afraid he might beat the ZR1 time?
but i think nissan should have its own driver and porsche have its own driver. do you guys think it wil ever happen?>
Suzuka Master
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,579
Likes: 0
From: Chicago Suburbs
I agree about buying the cars straight from random dealers, but I don't agree about using those drivers who are basically professional Porsche race car drivers. As good as Stuck and Rohl are, they may not be familiar enough with a GTR to extract it's maximum performance whereas you can be sure they would know how to get the most out of a GT2 or 911 Turbo.
Porsche and Nissan can choose whoever they want to drive. In Nissan's case, they would probably stick w/ their test driver Toshio Suzuki.
Porsche and Nissan can choose whoever they want to drive. In Nissan's case, they would probably stick w/ their test driver Toshio Suzuki.
As for the Nurburgring, extracting fast times is more about knowing the course and having confidence (ie big balls). Stuck and Rohl are some of the best at the Ring because of experience.
No one but Suzuki has been able to replicate those times. That leads me to believe that it's BS.
Suzuka Master
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,771
Likes: 113
From: The 808
Have you ever met a real pro driver? The good ones can learn a car within a couple of laps. A street car like a GTR of GT3 is slow compared to the cars that they drive.
As for the Nurburgring, extracting fast times is more about knowing the course and having confidence (ie big balls). Stuck and Rohl are some of the best at the Ring because of experience.
No one but Suzuki has been able to replicate those times. That leads me to believe that it's BS.
As for the Nurburgring, extracting fast times is more about knowing the course and having confidence (ie big balls). Stuck and Rohl are some of the best at the Ring because of experience.
No one but Suzuki has been able to replicate those times. That leads me to believe that it's BS.
Senior Moderator
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 81,385
Likes: 3,068
From: Appleton WI
Have you ever met a real pro driver? The good ones can learn a car within a couple of laps. A street car like a GTR of GT3 is slow compared to the cars that they drive.
As for the Nurburgring, extracting fast times is more about knowing the course and having confidence (ie big balls). Stuck and Rohl are some of the best at the Ring because of experience.
No one but Suzuki has been able to replicate those times. That leads me to believe that it's BS.
As for the Nurburgring, extracting fast times is more about knowing the course and having confidence (ie big balls). Stuck and Rohl are some of the best at the Ring because of experience.
No one but Suzuki has been able to replicate those times. That leads me to believe that it's BS.
100%
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 950
Likes: 3
From: Los Angeles, CA
You guys are completely missing my point despite the fact that I stated it very clearly.
How about if we let Toshio Suzuki drive both cars and see which is faster? Would that be fair? If you don't think so, why not?
How about if we let Toshio Suzuki drive both cars and see which is faster? Would that be fair? If you don't think so, why not?
Punk Rocker
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,579
Likes: 79
From: St Simons Island, GA
Its just like when all the Porsche and Chevy guys were whining about Millen driving the cars in R&T's GT-R/911 Turbo/Z06 comparison. The GT-R absolutely demolished the others and all they could say was that Millen obviously sandbagged because he has a relationship with Nissan. If thats the case, why allow pro Porsche drivers to sandbag in the GT-R? Can't have it both ways....
In fact, I've got an idea. Let me drive em! I've played Gran Turismo, I know the Nurburgring. Just fly me out to Germany, all expenses paid, give me a new 911 GT2 and a GT-R V-spec to play around in and I'll get you some hard numbers. Simple. I'll await Nissan and Porsche's phone calls....
In fact, I've got an idea. Let me drive em! I've played Gran Turismo, I know the Nurburgring. Just fly me out to Germany, all expenses paid, give me a new 911 GT2 and a GT-R V-spec to play around in and I'll get you some hard numbers. Simple. I'll await Nissan and Porsche's phone calls....
Last edited by majin ssj eric; May 14, 2009 at 12:01 AM.
Moderator
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 29,869
Likes: 3,489
Its relatively easy for Nissan to hook up a laptop and do a quick reflash of the GT-R to adjust the tuning... it makes a big difference on F/I engines especially.
How would that be fair? He's a Nissan test driver. They pay him money to do what he does, why would he try and make it look like the GT-R was the slower car?
The only fair circumstances would be as said, Rohrl in the 911 and Suzuki in the GT-R, COMPLETELY random cars.... the GT-R chosen by an incognito Porsche rep, and the GT3 chosen by an incognito Nissan rep. Immediately pick up rep from other manufacturer, then let them drive it straight to the designated meeting spot to transport or just drive to track. No funny stuff... random car straight off a random lot, driven by the best driver each manufacturer chooses.
That's one of the few legit possibilities to make sure no funny stuff is going on but its pointless either way. Its not going to convince anyone into liking one car more than the other thanks to the result, and it will convince even fewer potential sales. The only result would be a bunch of time and money wasted, and it would just be more fodder for Porsche and Nissan fanboys to smack back and forth.
The only fair circumstances would be as said, Rohrl in the 911 and Suzuki in the GT-R, COMPLETELY random cars.... the GT-R chosen by an incognito Porsche rep, and the GT3 chosen by an incognito Nissan rep. Immediately pick up rep from other manufacturer, then let them drive it straight to the designated meeting spot to transport or just drive to track. No funny stuff... random car straight off a random lot, driven by the best driver each manufacturer chooses.
That's one of the few legit possibilities to make sure no funny stuff is going on but its pointless either way. Its not going to convince anyone into liking one car more than the other thanks to the result, and it will convince even fewer potential sales. The only result would be a bunch of time and money wasted, and it would just be more fodder for Porsche and Nissan fanboys to smack back and forth.
Living the Dream
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,924
Likes: 130
From: near Charlotte
The only fair circumstances would be as said, Rohrl in the 911 and Suzuki in the GT-R, COMPLETELY random cars.... the GT-R chosen by an incognito Porsche rep, and the GT3 chosen by an incognito Nissan rep. Immediately pick up rep from other manufacturer, then let them drive it straight to the designated meeting spot to transport or just drive to track. No funny stuff... random car straight off a random lot, driven by the best driver each manufacturer chooses.
They could sell tickets to this "race".
Senior Moderator
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 81,385
Likes: 3,068
From: Appleton WI
Boy if that isnt being biased 
Senior Moderator
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 18,015
Likes: 1,736
Its just like when all the Porsche and Chevy guys were whining about Millen driving the cars in R&T's GT-R/911 Turbo/Z06 comparison. The GT-R absolutely demolished the others and all they could say was that Millen obviously sandbagged because he has a relationship with Nissan. If thats the case, why allow pro Porsche drivers to sandbag in the GT-R? Can't have it both ways....
In fact, I've got an idea. Let me drive em! I've played Gran Turismo, I know the Nurburgring. Just fly me out to Germany, all expenses paid, give me a new 911 GT2 and a GT-R V-spec to play around in and I'll get you some hard numbers. Simple. I'll await Nissan and Porsche's phone calls....
In fact, I've got an idea. Let me drive em! I've played Gran Turismo, I know the Nurburgring. Just fly me out to Germany, all expenses paid, give me a new 911 GT2 and a GT-R V-spec to play around in and I'll get you some hard numbers. Simple. I'll await Nissan and Porsche's phone calls....
*Adobe Reader required