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Im fine with the Panamera getting the axe, the rear end is disgusting. But it'll be sad to see the Cayenne go, such an amazing suv, especially the GTS, I think they shouldnt kill it off just yet.
Being a crazy fanatic Porsche nut, I think I'm among the very little people on earth who thought the Porsche Cayenne was an attractive SUV. We all agree that Porsche railed off the road Ferdinand would have liked them to keep but as far as it being good for sales, the rest is history. Those who do not appreciate the design,(and that's fine) should try driving one; the GTS and Turbo variants of the Cayenne are simply gorgeous; their power and handling characteristics could easily send many sports cars home crying. As many parts as it shares with the Touareg, it just appeals to a certain type of buyers, the Touareg cannot attain.
And to those who say that Porsche will go back to what it does best, making sports car, Ì'll rejoice with you. However, I don't agree that the cars will definitely be better: I don't think they've ever made a compromise in the R&D of the continued perfection of the 911 model.
I'll hold judgement on the Panamera until I see one but as far as pictures go, they should definitely axe the model, kill it again and when it's dead, bury it forever.
From the brand management perspective, it makes good sense to strengthen Porsche's image as the sports car maker. The VW group has other ultra lux cars, and Cayenne and Panamera types of vehicles are probably better suited for the Audi brand.
In the short term though, they'll lose the SUV customers (the badge whores) to BMW and MB.
Good Point Moog on the lower model bringing in new ppl to the brand.
Earlier, I saw that someone said axing the Cayenne will eliminate a type of buyer that Porsche may have not wanted anyway. Now, Porsche will create a cheaper model and attract a lower-end buyer. How does this improve the brand image? Regardless of whether you liked the Cayenne, it was a premium vehicle in both price and performance (relative to other SUVs).
Earlier, I saw that someone said axing the Cayenne will eliminate a type of buyer that Porsche may have not wanted anyway. Now, Porsche will create a cheaper model and attract a lower-end buyer. How does this improve the brand image? Regardless of whether you liked the Cayenne, it was a premium vehicle in both price and performance (relative to other SUVs).
I'm not sure why you are quoting me, but I didn't comment on anything you are talking about directly, or indirectly for that matter. Even if you are just asking me in the general sense based on comments made in the thread, I never said I agreed/disagreed with any of the "type of buyer" or "brand image" comments anyway. As far as I am concerned, Porsche probably does not care who is buying their vehicles as long as ppl are buying them.
All I said was that Moog made a good point about bringing in buyers with a more affordable vehicle,..that's it.
VW to borrow Porsche Panamera platform for premium offering
Volkswagen’s board may have voted to ax the Panamera from Porsche’s lineup, but the four-door coupe’s platform will see duty in at least one of VW’s other brands – either Bentley, Bugatti or Audi – before riding off into the sunset next decade.
According to Edmunds, VW has decided to share the Panamera’s platform with one of its premium brands. Although the Panamera platform would seem like a perfect candidate for a production version of the Lamborghini Estoque four-door coupe, and inside source says the Panamera architecture will not underpin any future Lamborghini models.
That leaves the door open for Bentley, Bugatti or Audi. Bentley could us the Panamera platform for the next-generation of the Continental GT, but it is believed Bentley is eyeing one of Audi’s aluminum platforms to save on weight. The Panamera is also much lower than the current Continental GT.
Bugatti has yet to decide on its next production model, but the Panamera could sway the decision making process. One of the models Bugatti is considering is a high-performance four-door coupe, which would fit the Panamera mold to a T.
Audi is also in the running for a Panamera-based model, but with a number of similar vehicles in production or in the pipeline, it seems very unlikely that the German automaker would get the nod.
No word on when the new Panamera-based model might bow, but expect it well ahead of the Porsche Panamera’s demise date of 2017.
MSNBC article on VW, surprisingly pretty good for mainstream media. Couple things I found intersting
"Volkswagen seems determined to rip a page from Honda’s playbook, unabashedly describing its plans to simplify its option lists into “Honda-like” trim levels with no factory-installed options, as well as adding new models such as the crossover three-row SUV described with the shorthand label, “Honda Pilot fighter.”"
"The company was evaluating its operations in the U.S. because it was losing close to a billion dollars every year from the U.S. unit."
Sounds like their trying to regain momentum VW had in the late 90's/early 00's
I dont know about you guys but I'd like a fast, well handling suv to go with my fast sports-car. Why not have both? This is the stupidest move I've heard of, lets kill our best selling product. It's not like it was a RL. Makes me sad that Porsche is no longer independent. I bet VW is going to make many shared parts.
MSNBC article on VW, surprisingly pretty good for mainstream media. Couple things I found intersting
"Volkswagen seems determined to rip a page from Honda’s playbook, unabashedly describing its plans to simplify its option lists into “Honda-like” trim levels with no factory-installed options, as well as adding new models such as the crossover three-row SUV described with the shorthand label, “Honda Pilot fighter.”"
"The company was evaluating its operations in the U.S. because it was losing close to a billion dollars every year from the U.S. unit."
Sounds like their trying to regain momentum VW had in the late 90's/early 00's
Unfortunately, I think that will end up costing us some innovations or options.
It's interesting that in Germany you can order a VW a la carte and they aren't hemorrhaging money like the US.
Maybe they can't sell VWs here at the same margins because of the problems with previous VWs and that their service experiences are way below what they want to charge for their cars.
I would not like to see a cheaper entry level porsche. I don't think it will cheapen the brand but they already have a $50,000 entry level car.
I wouldn't call a $50k boxster cheap. That's a relatively safe entry level for the brand. Still in the "exclusive" price range. However, if they go the way of BMW and MB and start whoring out cars that start in the low $30's with incentives for cheap leases, then you'll see these cars everywhere like you see 328's and C300's. It seems like everyone is paying $350/mth driving a stripped down 328 or C300 with vinyl seats these days. Just cheapens the brand and gives less reason for the image concious buyer to justify overpaying for the brand. I'm sure Porsche realizes they can't have it both ways. It will be interesting to see how they handle it.
Have the people bashing the Cayenne actually driven one?
I used to bash it...then I got to spend A LOT of time behind the wheel of my uncle's Cayenne S he had leased. Boy was I impressed. And I stopped bashing them. It was a great drive.
That said, I am happy to read they are going back to the basics.
Have the people bashing the Cayenne actually driven one?
I used to bash it...then I got to spend A LOT of time behind the wheel of my uncle's Cayenne S he had leased. Boy was I impressed. And I stopped bashing them. It was a great drive.
That said, I am happy to read they are going back to the basics.
And the Panamera is an abomination.
...but have you driven the Panamera?...oh the irony
On a serious note, I'm sure they both drive well, I just never liked the idea of Porsche getting into the SUV or the Sedan game.
...but have you driven the Panamera?...oh the irony
The panamera might drive like gods chariot...its still ugly as shit. Specially when compared to what Aston managed to do with the design of Rapide.
The Cayanne isnt ugly, well, Im a not huge fan of the current style. Its just a matter of people thinking porsche should have never entered the SUV game.
The panamera might drive like gods chariot...its still ugly as shit. Specially when compared to what Aston managed to do with the design of Rapide.
The Cayanne isnt ugly, well, Im a not huge fan of the current style. Its just a matter of people thinking porsche should have never entered the SUV game.
I never thought the Cayanne was much to look at...granted it's no Honda Crosstour, but it's not to die for either.
The Cayenne may have driven well and sold well, but I don't know if it actually made a profit in the end for Porsche. Given how Porsche is in trouble for cooking their books, I guess we'll find out in the tabloids.
Given VW's new found wisdom in cheerfully copying Honda's business model, I'll trust their management's decision to consider the Cayenne as not a profitable venture.
Its something some people here don't seem to understand: if a car doesn't turn a profit, then it sucks, period.
Porsche sports car customers are some of the most brand loyal customers out there. Cayenne owners, not so much. While it is true that the Cayenne brought people in and was a good conquest car (taking customers away from other brands), the customer retention sucked.
Originally Posted by dallison
now maybe they can fix the rms and ims issues
I would not like to see a cheaper entry level porsche. I don't think it will cheapen the brand but they already have a $50,000 entry level car.
The base model Cayenne with a manual transmission was the least expensive car Porsche was making. It was slightly less expensive than a stripped out base boxster with no floor mats.
Originally Posted by Sarlacc
lambo did produce an SUV.
Ahh, the LM002, for what it was, it was f'n bad A$$.
another bright outcome from the merger. finally VW big dog execs could make an intelligent business decision in axing these cars that do not belong in the line-up.
just goes to show how WRONG porsche was in thinking the panamera was a wise move, when VW wants to cancel production of this halo only months after the unveiling. if thats not a slap in the face, i dont know what is. all porsche needed was some superior consultation from VW.
i suppose that now Porsche and VW split the sales, the Porsche line-up could go back to being niche sports cars.
Last edited by ThermonMermon; 09-11-2009 at 07:51 PM.
The Volkswagen Group has suggested that its Porsche brand will launch a battery-electric model in the next few years. The company is also planning to launch a hydrogen fuel cell model under the VW, Audi and Porsche brands.
Speaking the evening before the VW Group annual conference, research and development boss Ulrich Hackenberg teased the new models during a presentation of future technology.
There’s no official confirmation on what type of Porsche will be battery-powered, but senior Porsche sources have suggested that it will be a version of a planned smaller five-door hatchback similar in concept to the Panamera. Autocar first revealed this back in October.
VW’s own fuel cell vehicle will be based on the front-wheel drive MQB platform. Hackenberg said the MQB architecture had been designed from the outset to accommodate all types of powertrain from petrol and diesel to gas power, plug-in hybrid, battery and hydrogen fuel cell. There’s no news as to the likely launch dates of these new vehicles.
Hackenberg also revealed a host of new technology being developed for the new Audi A8, including the use of sensors and autonomous driving technology. Such systems are likely to become more affordable by the end of this decade and could be incorporated into the next-generation version of the MQB architecture.
This suggests that ‘piloted driving’ versions of future Golf and Passat-sized cars are possible by 2020.
Porsche embraced turbocharging for the 911 Carrera and 718 Boxster and Cayman, but it didn't want to lose the ultra-sharp response of its naturally aspirated engines. The solution it came up with, called Dynamic Boost, is incredibly clever—unlike a typical anti-lag system, it doesn't dump extra fuel into the engine to keep the turbos spooling. Jason Fenske at Engineering Explained breaks it down.
Ordinarily, when you lift off the throttle pedal, the fuel injectors stop injecting fuel and the throttle closes. Turbochargers are driven by exhaust gasses, and when the flow of air from the exhaust slows down, the turbos slow down too. When you get back on the throttle and the revs climb again, it takes a certain amount of time for exhaust pressure to build up enough to get the turbos back up to speed. We call that turbo lag.
In a Porsche with Dynamic Boost, lifting off the throttle pedal shuts off the fuel injectors, but leaves the throttle partially open. This allows more air to pass through the engine, keeping exhaust flowing and spinning the turbos even during deceleration. Dynamic Boost doesn't get rid of turbo lag entirely, but it reduces the time it takes to get the turbochargers spooled up significantly.
As you might expect, leaving the throttle slightly open during deceleration changes how the car behaves. In a comment added to the video, Fenske explains that engine braking effect is reduced by Dynamic Boost, though he says the effect isn't felt during normal driving, and when you're really driving aggressively (say, on the track) you're using the brake pedal to slow down anyway. The anti-lag system is always active, but it's more aggressive when the car is in Sport or Sport+ mode.
The especially clever thing about Dynamic Boost is that it doesn't require any additional engine hardware or fuel burn—it's all controlled by the engine management system. It's a brilliant solution to a big problem for sports cars like the 718 and 911.
German brands have stuck to diesel in spite of the fallout from VW's Dieselgate, but they're starting to bow under pressure. Porsche has become the first German automaker to drop diesel from its lineup, announcing that it will "no longer offer" vehicles based on the technology. This wasn't a great stretch when the badge is primarily focused on conventional gas engines and hasn't had a diesel model since February 2018, but it would rule out a comeback.
If you ask Porsche, it's a question of demand. The company "is not demonizing diesel," CEO Oliver Blume maintained, but interest in the format was on the decline. Diesel represented just 12 percent of Porsche's global sales, while hybrids were on the rise. About 63 percent of Panamera sedans sold in Europe are hybrids. Like Toyota and other makes shying away from diesels, it wants to go where the buyers are and can make the switch without too much of a financial hit.
Outside of the press release, however, the company also acknowledged a reality: while it might not have any qualms with diesel, its would-be customers do. In an interview with Bild am Sonntag, Blume said that Porsche's "image has suffered" as a result of the "diesel crisis." When German cities are receiving clearance to ban diesels, you know the engine tech has fallen out of favor. Porsche is directly entangled in the scandal, too. It acknowledged that about 13,500 diesel Cayenne models had an illegal engine charge control that, according to Bild, was used to cheat on diesel emissions tests. It'd present one configuration in testing, but would switch to a more polluting spec to boost engine sounds on the road.
The marque doesn't have much reason to stick with diesel as it is. Between a growing hybrid roster and upcoming all-electric cars like the Taycan, drivers have multiple options if they want a Porsche with lower-than-usual running costs. About half of the cars could have some kind of electric motor inside by 2025. Still, it's a significant step -- and it may be just a matter of time before VW and other brands follow suit.
Porsche Motorsport boss lays down the gauntlet for the company’s next hypercar
Porsche’s fascination with the Nürburgring shows no sign of abating. Speaking to TopGear.com at the LA Motor Show, Porsche Motorsport boss Frank-Steffen Walliser laid down the gauntlet for the core of whichever car supercedes the 918 Spyder hypercar.
It won’t be whichever powertrain best fits the company’s increasingly electrified message, but whichever powertrain allows it to take nearly 30 seconds out of the 918’s 6m 57s lap of the ‘Ring.
“It must achieve a 6m 30s at the Nürburgring,” Walliser tells us. “I don’t care about the drivetrain, 6m 30s is the target. Sports cars are defined by their performance, then we have to look how to achieve it. An electric car in 6m 30s is quite a challenge.” So a hybrid may be unlikely, a fully electric hypercar even more so.
Is it all getting a bit mad? “For 5,000 years mankind compares performance in games and competition in soccer, in rallying, throwing spears and whatever. I don’t see it will stop. for sure we have to be careful, and properly prepare.
“The main part is preparation for safety. Nothing just happens, we need a very experienced driver, a very good team taking care of every detail and we have to be careful,” he added.
Keeping things at a slightly saner level, he also told us to expect the new, 992-generation GT3 within 18 to 24 months of the brand-new 911’s arrival, but wouldn’t be held on whether it’s going to be turbocharged or not, as some have suggested.
And, indeed, feared. If the 991 has been anything to go by, that’ll be the first of many motorsport cars. Some of which, like the new GT2 RS Clubsport, may allow modestly talented drivers to go racing. Actual racing, not ending up in the hands of speculative collectors.
Walliser assures us the company’s done as much as possible to make sure Clubsports end up in the hands of people who want to race them, and given the car fits with the SRO’s new GT2 regulations, that could mean some pretty special races.
“The intention is this is not a collector’s car. It’s a really, really easy to use racing car. You don’t need a big team of engineers setting up everything, and you can service it with the regular computers we are using in the Porsche dealer.”
While its 282kg of downforce at 124mph comes close to doubling the figure of the GT2 RS road car, Walliser insists the Clubsport is a friendly car to drive. It still comes with stability control and ABS, after all. “The people who will buy this have found a skill in racing but they don’t have the time for daily training and a lot of races,” he says.
Walliser reckons it’ll be used differently to the 935 track special it initially appears rather similar to. While most of those will still end up on circuit, it’ll likely be more careful use on a trackday as opposed to the cut and thrust of a racing grid. And it turns out a lot of 935 buyers are also getting a GT2 RS Clubsport anyway.
Back to the ‘Ring. Has the new Clubsport been there yet?
“We haven’t tested it,” he says. “I think with the downforce level and the tyres we can take another ten seconds off the street car, minimum.” So around 6m 35s, perhaps.
“I guess we will see in the spring. We’ll do some serious Nürburgring testing. The GT2 RS Manthey was just an end of season run to bring the trophy home.”
Some of the best cars ever built are in peril. Internal combustion is a magical thing, converting flammable liquid into motive power and pleasant noises, but it is somewhat at odds with the woke, environmentally conscious times we live in. That fact poses a threat to the gas-burning classic cars we all know and love; sooner or later, it seems, governments around the world will say "no more gasoline," and the world's Porsche 911s and Jaguar E-Types will either need to be converted to pure-electric propulsion, or be retired.
But Porsche, which already has some ambitious electrification plans in the works, isn't turning its back on the classic internal combustion cars of its past. The company has just announced a plan to work with Siemens Energy to create the world's first industrial-scale synthetic fuel factory.
How is synthetic fuel any different than gasoline? It's carbon-neutral, meaning the carbon emitted from burning it is only equal to the carbon sequestered in producing it. The synthetic "e-fuel" Porsche and Siemens plan to produce will be made by using wind energy to split water into hydrogen and oxygen through electrolysis - the reverse process of a hydrogen fuel cell car like the Toyota Mirai - and combining that hydrogen with carbon-dioxide filtered out of the atmosphere to create synthetic methanol. The methanol will then be converted into synthetic gasoline through a process pioneered by - and licensed from - Exxon.
Porsche and Siemens have chosen southern Chile as the location for their first e-fuel production plant, owing to the country's strong wind energy industry. The plan calls for 130,000 liters of fuel - more than 34,000 gallons - to be produced in a pilot phase by 2022, with 55 million liters - roughly 14.5 million gallons - to be produced by 2024, and ten times that to be produced by 2026.
When you’re facing a world that seems to be moving away from the internal combustion engines that we’ve always known and loved to electrification, it’s time to maybe reconsider your options. But instead of making some cool electric cars, Porsche is considering a different option: clean-burning synthetic fuel.
In an interview with Evo, Porsche’s Vice President Motorsport and GT cars, Dr. Frank Walliser, stated that the company has been envisioning something called eFuel, a synthetic fuel that would have the same carbon output as an electric car. Testing is supposed to start off in 2022, and it would be possible to use this fuel in any internal combustion car without having to go through the lengthy—and expensive—process of converting it.
From the article:
“Synthetic fuels are very important to allow us to reduce our CO2 output. Emissions are way better than current pump fuel, with less particulates and less NOx produced; synthetic fuels have between eight to ten components whereas petrol today has 30-40 and not all of them are welcome,” Walliser explained.
“Synthetic fuel is cleaner and there is no bi-product and when we start full production we expect a CO2 reduction of 85 percent. From a ‘well to wheel’ perspective - and you have to consider the well to wheel impact of all vehicles - this will be the same level of CO2 produced in the manufacture and use of an electric vehicle.”
It’s going to take a hell of a lot of time and money to produce even a little bit of these eFuels, but Porsche is confident that it’s going to be a good thing for the market—and the environment. Plenty of folks are still loath to give up their ICE vehicles for a variety of reasons, and I’m sure if car enthusiasts could maintain the purr of a powerful engine, we’d have a lot more folks willing to do better for the environment.
While eFuel technology has been in its infancy for over a decade, the stringent anti-carbon laws being enacted around the globe in the next decade have spurred on development.
Like so many of these inventions, do we ever see them in real world use. Nope!
It is like the diesel fuel with some sort of water emulsion developed in Germany some years back. Supposedly makes diesels run "clean". So where is it?
Porsche is a company best known for the exceptional handling capabilities of its cars, but it made a name for itself in naturally aspirated Boxer engines too. Eventually, the 911 Turbo arrived with boost, but it was a rarity in the lineup. In the modern era, however, almost all Porsche products are turbocharged to maintain a decent balance between performance and efficiency.
Porsche may not have always loved the idea of turbocharging, but it has embraced the technology and is now in a position where it can even revolutionize the concept.
In new patent filings exclusively uncovered by CarBuzz, we learn that the German automaker has found a way to make turbos far more powerful and efficient than ever before.
Other manufacturers have learned the hard way that more turbochargers are not necessarily more beneficial, so how does one increase performance otherwise? Well, in a traditional turbocharged system, the compressor or inlet side of the turbo is directly connected to the exhaust turbine or outlet of the turbo. The bigger the compressor wheel is, the more lag a turbo experiences, and if the exhaust side is just as large, the turbo will only perform at its most efficient at high rpm. This is why many have switched to twin-turbocharging, as this means quick spool-up with a broad powerband. But what if you could have a big compressor to feed loads more air into the engine without losing any efficiency at low revs?
This is the premise behind Porsche's latest invention. In the patent filings, Porsche suggests divorcing the compressor from the exhaust turbine, or in this case, exhaust turbines. The idea sees two exhaust turbines that run in association with a bypass valve. This can be closed at low rpm to maximize energy extraction from the exhaust gas. When these turbines rotate, they power a generator. This in turn feeds an electric motor and the electric motor drives the compressor. Essentially, this combines the concept of an electric turbo with that of a twin-turbo setup, simultaneously fusing the higher output of a big single turbo with the efficiency and response of two smaller turbos. And with the exhaust turbines not being directly connected to the compressor, one side of the "deconstructed" turbo could spin at high speed even if the other is spinning at low speed, meaning that each could run within their best respective operating ranges at all times.
As the "big turbo" (compressor) is spooled up by an electric motor, power delivery can be made instantaneous, and when at higher revolutions, the bypass valve (which is basically working as an external wastegate) on the "two small turbos" (exhaust turbines), can be opened for enhanced economy and less stress on the engine when cruising.
Porsche specifically mentions that high boost pressures would not be needed in such a setup (a bigger turbo typically requires less boost than a smaller turbo to achieve the same power), yet you would have the response of smaller turbochargers. More power, better efficiency, and - besides added complexity - no drawbacks that we can see. We think this will be a game-changer if costs can be kept down, and in conjunction with synthetic fuels also being developed by Porsche, could be the answer to keeping the internal combustion's flame burning a little longer.
I don't get it. What's the point of this? Why not just use the engine's electrical system to run the turbo motor? I can't imagine that adding two turbine housings, the piping, valves, generator, wiring, electronics, etc don't add a substantial amount of weight that would just offset the efficiency gains. Or still do the decoupled turbine side without the generator and do the same thing. E-boost at low revs and connect the gas path at higher revs.