North American Auto Industry Crisis news **Pontiac's Last Day (page 28)**
12-11-2008, 11:02 AM
#321
Senior Moderator
Discussion and debate are always welcome, folks...but, please keep it civil. Thanks!
12-11-2008, 12:05 PM
#322
The sizzle in the Steak
Thread Starter
Man, this is yet another reminder that American focus groups are different from European ones, I guess. More driving enthusiasts over there?
12-11-2008, 01:25 PM
#323
I'm the Firestarter
Ford's most advanced plant, in Brazil:
http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189
In the US, union rules prohibit this kind of layout.
http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189
In the US, union rules prohibit this kind of layout.
12-11-2008, 01:46 PM
#324
6G TLX-S
12-11-2008, 03:29 PM
#325
^ way hotter, by like a landslide. There is just no excuse.
At least GM was smart enough to rebadge their Euro designs as Saturn to bring them over here. Ford simply denies the US market.
At least GM was smart enough to rebadge their Euro designs as Saturn to bring them over here. Ford simply denies the US market.
12-11-2008, 03:47 PM
#326
6G TLX-S
^^^^^ Not just rebadging their Euro designs, GM is also rebadging the best of their Australian Holden designs too which is a very smart move.
12-11-2008, 08:28 PM
#327
Engineer
I heard Mitt Romney on the radio the other day, but I don't know how credible that was...
12-11-2008, 09:17 PM
#328
Sweden unveils 3.4-bln-USD rescue plan for auto industry
STOCKHOLM, Dec. 11 (Xinhua) -- Sweden's government on Thursday announced a 28-billion-kronor (3.4-billion-U.S. dollar) aid package for the country's beleaguered auto industry, including carmakers Volvo and Saab.
The government will provide state credit guarantees totaling a maximum of 20 billion kronor (about 2.43 billion U.S. dollars) to companies in the auto sector for raising loans from the European Investment Bank.
The aid package also includes rescue loans of up to 5 billion kronor (about 605 million U.S. dollars) for car companies that find themselves in financial crisis and 3 billion kronor (about 365 million U.S. dollars) for research and development in the car industry.
The government will provide state credit guarantees totaling a maximum of 20 billion kronor (about 2.43 billion U.S. dollars) to companies in the auto sector for raising loans from the European Investment Bank.
The aid package also includes rescue loans of up to 5 billion kronor (about 605 million U.S. dollars) for car companies that find themselves in financial crisis and 3 billion kronor (about 365 million U.S. dollars) for research and development in the car industry.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/20...t_10491672.htm
The Broke 3, Ze Chermans, and the dumb Swedes. Who's next?
12-11-2008, 09:33 PM
#329
Here is a perfect reason why this bailout will NOT work:
GM sales in 2007: 9,370,000 vehicles
Toyota sales in 2007: 9,366,418 vehicles
GM profit/loss in 2007: -$38,730,000,000 (-$4,055 per car)
Toyota profit in 2007: +$17,146,000,000 (+$1,874 per car)
Nearly the same amount of cars sold........What is GM doing wrong?
GM sales in 2007: 9,370,000 vehicles
Toyota sales in 2007: 9,366,418 vehicles
GM profit/loss in 2007: -$38,730,000,000 (-$4,055 per car)
Toyota profit in 2007: +$17,146,000,000 (+$1,874 per car)
Nearly the same amount of cars sold........What is GM doing wrong?
12-11-2008, 10:15 PM
#330
Senior Moderator
Auto bailout bill fails in Senate
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/11/b...in-the-senate/
If you turn on C-SPAN2 right now, you'll be able to see the Senate vote on the auto bailout bill, which appears set to fail . Negotiations between Republicans and Democrats were apparently very close to a deal. According to Bob Corker (R-TN) speaking as I type, "three words" separate the two sides on the deal, but an agreement could not be reached. Hence, when it goes to vote in the next few minutes, it is likely to fail Chris Dodd, visibly upset, preceded Corker on the floor. Stay tuned.
Okay, may as well liveblog the remainder of the proceedings. Richard Shelby spoke briefly, basically saying he's voting no.
10:34 PM: Debbie Stabenow (D-MI) speaking now. Repeats the "not a bailout, it's a bridge loan" position. Thanks Dodd for his work. Stabenow is obviously upset here. The hangup is the UAW pay issue, and Stabenow is fairly distraught. "We are in serious trouble, ladies and gentlemen."
10:39 PM: Stabenow upping the drama. "The middle class hangs in the balance." Says that suppliers, manufacturing sector are in mortal danger. Pleads with the Senate for the votes on the existing bill. Asks for "3 months of time" to restructure the auto companies.
10:41PM: Stabenow finishes. here comes the cloture vote.
10:43 PM: C-SPAN flashing factoids while we wait for the roll call to be completed. Harry Reid (D-NV) has predicted the votes aren't there.
10:45 PM: Roll Call still going on. We're in the "D's." Mr. Dorgan...Mr. Durbin....Mr. Ensign....Bueller...
10:48 PM: Now we're in the "L's" as Senators mill about the floor BSing with one another
10:51 PM: Inching closer. We're at "W"
Here we go....
Stragglers voting now...
10:55 PM: Michigan Sens. Stabenow and Levin having an animated conversation with Harry Reid on the floor.
10:57 PM: Votes continue to come in.
11:02 PM: Republicans who voted "Aye" include Arlen Specter (PA) and Sam Brownback (KS). More waiting as the official tally gets tabulated. Hillary Clinton's red jacket is likely visible from Mars.
11:05 PM: Did Kit Bond (R-MO) just change from "No" to "Aye"? Anyone else notice this, or did I mishear it the first time?
Ayes: 52
Nays: 35
Cloture was not invoked
Reid acknowledges that this won't be revisited until the new Senate convenes next year. Asks the President to consider using TARP money.
Senators continue to speak on the floor, but this essentially signifies the the end of the bailout debate for calendar year 2008. And now we wait to see what happens.
Okay, may as well liveblog the remainder of the proceedings. Richard Shelby spoke briefly, basically saying he's voting no.
10:34 PM: Debbie Stabenow (D-MI) speaking now. Repeats the "not a bailout, it's a bridge loan" position. Thanks Dodd for his work. Stabenow is obviously upset here. The hangup is the UAW pay issue, and Stabenow is fairly distraught. "We are in serious trouble, ladies and gentlemen."
10:39 PM: Stabenow upping the drama. "The middle class hangs in the balance." Says that suppliers, manufacturing sector are in mortal danger. Pleads with the Senate for the votes on the existing bill. Asks for "3 months of time" to restructure the auto companies.
10:41PM: Stabenow finishes. here comes the cloture vote.
10:43 PM: C-SPAN flashing factoids while we wait for the roll call to be completed. Harry Reid (D-NV) has predicted the votes aren't there.
10:45 PM: Roll Call still going on. We're in the "D's." Mr. Dorgan...Mr. Durbin....Mr. Ensign....Bueller...
10:48 PM: Now we're in the "L's" as Senators mill about the floor BSing with one another
10:51 PM: Inching closer. We're at "W"
Here we go....
Stragglers voting now...
10:55 PM: Michigan Sens. Stabenow and Levin having an animated conversation with Harry Reid on the floor.
10:57 PM: Votes continue to come in.
11:02 PM: Republicans who voted "Aye" include Arlen Specter (PA) and Sam Brownback (KS). More waiting as the official tally gets tabulated. Hillary Clinton's red jacket is likely visible from Mars.
11:05 PM: Did Kit Bond (R-MO) just change from "No" to "Aye"? Anyone else notice this, or did I mishear it the first time?
Ayes: 52
Nays: 35
Cloture was not invoked
Reid acknowledges that this won't be revisited until the new Senate convenes next year. Asks the President to consider using TARP money.
Senators continue to speak on the floor, but this essentially signifies the the end of the bailout debate for calendar year 2008. And now we wait to see what happens.
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/11/b...in-the-senate/
america
12-12-2008, 12:05 AM
#336
an asshole from florida
Here is a perfect reason why this bailout will NOT work:
GM sales in 2007: 9,370,000 vehicles
Toyota sales in 2007: 9,366,418 vehicles
GM profit/loss in 2007: -$38,730,000,000 (-$4,055 per car)
Toyota profit in 2007: +$17,146,000,000 (+$1,874 per car)
Nearly the same amount of cars sold........What is GM doing wrong?
GM sales in 2007: 9,370,000 vehicles
Toyota sales in 2007: 9,366,418 vehicles
GM profit/loss in 2007: -$38,730,000,000 (-$4,055 per car)
Toyota profit in 2007: +$17,146,000,000 (+$1,874 per car)
Nearly the same amount of cars sold........What is GM doing wrong?
12-12-2008, 12:15 AM
#337
Senior Moderator
Late Thursday evening, the U.S. automaker bailout bill failed to pass through the Senate. The legislation is dead and there are no plans for another bill to go through the process until the end of the year. To quote Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, this will be "a very, very bad Christmas" for many Americans.
Over the past day, Senators have tried to resolve the House-approved bill so it could pass Senate Republican muster, but reports suggest that the UAW was unwilling to accept GOP demands that workers agree to parity in pay and benefits.
News of the failed bill has already spread to markets across the Pacific, with the Nikkei index nose-diving over 6%. Things on this side of the world are bound to be worse when trading on the New York Stock Exchange begins tomorrow.
According to reports, General Motors has got bankruptcy and restructuring advisors on speed-dial in preparation for the bad news and Chrysler has already retained CH11 counsel.
Countless economists and industry analysts are warning that if any one of the Detroit 3 goes under, it will spell disaster for an economy already suffering in a recession. Video of the vote is embedded after the jump. More to follow tomorrow.
Over the past day, Senators have tried to resolve the House-approved bill so it could pass Senate Republican muster, but reports suggest that the UAW was unwilling to accept GOP demands that workers agree to parity in pay and benefits.
News of the failed bill has already spread to markets across the Pacific, with the Nikkei index nose-diving over 6%. Things on this side of the world are bound to be worse when trading on the New York Stock Exchange begins tomorrow.
According to reports, General Motors has got bankruptcy and restructuring advisors on speed-dial in preparation for the bad news and Chrysler has already retained CH11 counsel.
Countless economists and industry analysts are warning that if any one of the Detroit 3 goes under, it will spell disaster for an economy already suffering in a recession. Video of the vote is embedded after the jump. More to follow tomorrow.
12-12-2008, 12:46 AM
#338
Senior Moderator
12-12-2008, 02:17 AM
#340
Punk Rocker
I don't know why everyone is freaking out over this. Bankruptcy is exactly what needs to happen so that these companies can finally restructure their labor contracts. Throwing money at them will do nothing to fix the underlying problem and when that money dries up in a year or two we will be in the exact same mess again. Let them trim the fat and become leaner and more profit-oriented. Thats what will save the industry....
12-12-2008, 03:02 AM
#341
I don't know why everyone is freaking out over this. Bankruptcy is exactly what needs to happen so that these companies can finally restructure their labor contracts. Throwing money at them will do nothing to fix the underlying problem and when that money dries up in a year or two we will be in the exact same mess again. Let them trim the fat and become leaner and more profit-oriented. Thats what will save the industry....
Still I completely agree with you, they need to go bankrupt in order to reorganize. Its their fault they're in the position they're in now, and unless they realize that they'll be filing for Chapter 7 instead of 11.
12-12-2008, 05:10 AM
#342
99 TL, 06 E350
bye bye GM/Chrysler...thank you UAW for f--king things up. If this doesn’t convince you the destructive nature of unions, then I don't know what would.
12-12-2008, 05:56 AM
#344
Auto Bailout Fails!
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Hopes for Congressional approval of a bailout of the U.S. auto industry fell apart late Thursday night as Senate leaders said Democrats and Republicans were unable to reach a deal that could get the bipartisan support needed to bring the measure for the vote.
The Senate voted 52-35 to bring the measure for a vote, but that was short of the 60 votes needed to advance the legislation. The failure followed the collapse of negotiations between Senate Democrats and Republicans seeking a compromise that all sides could accept.
This development could possibly doom General Motors (GM, Fortune 500) to a bankruptcy and closure in the coming weeks, with Chrysler LLC potentially following close behind.
While Ford Motor (F, Fortune 500) has more cash on hand to avoid an immediate crisis, its production could be disrupted by problems in the supplier base, as could the production of overseas automakers with U.S. plants such as Toyota Motor (TM) and Honda Motor (HMC).
The bill would have provided $14 billion in federal loans as a stopgap measure until the new Congress and the incoming Obama administration could reach a longer-term solution.
However, the Big Three could still wind up getting government funding. Bush officials warned wavering GOP senators earlier Thursday that if they didn't support the legislation, the White House will likely be forced to tap funds from the Wall Street bailout to lend them money, two Republican congressional officials told CNN.
The White House has been strongly opposed to using any of the $700 billion in bank bailout funds to help the auto industry, but the Bush administration has also expressed that the Big Three must get some financial assistance soon.
White House Press Secretary Dana Perino said earlier Thursday that the economy is too weak right now to weather bankruptcies by one or more automakers.
Hopes for compromise quickly faded
Earlier in the evening, it appeared that the two sides were getting close to an agreement on the bailout. But just after 10 p.m., Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., announced a failure to reach an agreement and that he would call for a procedural vote to test support for the measure.
"We have worked and worked and we can spend all night tonight, tomorrow, Saturday, and Sunday, and we're not going to get to the finish line," Reid said on the Senate floor before the vote. "That's just the way it is. There's too much difference between the two sides."
Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., said the sticking point was the United Auto Workers union's refusal to put employees at U.S. auto manufacturers at "parity pay" with U.S. employees at nonunion plants operated by foreign automakers in the United States.
Negotiations centered around proposals from Sen. Bob Corker, R-Tenn, that would have set dates in 2009 by which the automakers receiving the loans had to reach cost cutting agreements with unions and creditors or be forced into bankruptcy. Corker said the two sides were very close to a deal and stumbled on the deadline for the union to agree to the reduced pay.
"We are about three words away from a deal," Corker said.
Currently, analysts estimate the union workers at U.S. automakers make about $3 to $4 per hour more than the non-union U.S. employees of foreign automakers like Toyota and Honda, according to the Center for Automotive Research.
The benefit costs are significantly greater for U.S. automakers, though, because they have to pay health care costs for hundreds of thousands of retirees. The union agreed to close much of that gap in the 2007 labor agreements by shifting responsibility for retiree health care to union-controlled trust funds. But those changes won't take effect until 2010.
The House easily passed the bailout bill Wednesday night but it quickly ran into trouble in the Senate, where Republicans objected to several provisions.
Japan's Nikkei index plunged more than 4% in trading in Tokyo Friday following the collapse of the bill. U.S. stock market futures also tumbled after the vote and are pointing to a sharply lower open Friday.
The Senate voted 52-35 to bring the measure for a vote, but that was short of the 60 votes needed to advance the legislation. The failure followed the collapse of negotiations between Senate Democrats and Republicans seeking a compromise that all sides could accept.
This development could possibly doom General Motors (GM, Fortune 500) to a bankruptcy and closure in the coming weeks, with Chrysler LLC potentially following close behind.
While Ford Motor (F, Fortune 500) has more cash on hand to avoid an immediate crisis, its production could be disrupted by problems in the supplier base, as could the production of overseas automakers with U.S. plants such as Toyota Motor (TM) and Honda Motor (HMC).
The bill would have provided $14 billion in federal loans as a stopgap measure until the new Congress and the incoming Obama administration could reach a longer-term solution.
However, the Big Three could still wind up getting government funding. Bush officials warned wavering GOP senators earlier Thursday that if they didn't support the legislation, the White House will likely be forced to tap funds from the Wall Street bailout to lend them money, two Republican congressional officials told CNN.
The White House has been strongly opposed to using any of the $700 billion in bank bailout funds to help the auto industry, but the Bush administration has also expressed that the Big Three must get some financial assistance soon.
White House Press Secretary Dana Perino said earlier Thursday that the economy is too weak right now to weather bankruptcies by one or more automakers.
Hopes for compromise quickly faded
Earlier in the evening, it appeared that the two sides were getting close to an agreement on the bailout. But just after 10 p.m., Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., announced a failure to reach an agreement and that he would call for a procedural vote to test support for the measure.
"We have worked and worked and we can spend all night tonight, tomorrow, Saturday, and Sunday, and we're not going to get to the finish line," Reid said on the Senate floor before the vote. "That's just the way it is. There's too much difference between the two sides."
Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., said the sticking point was the United Auto Workers union's refusal to put employees at U.S. auto manufacturers at "parity pay" with U.S. employees at nonunion plants operated by foreign automakers in the United States.
Negotiations centered around proposals from Sen. Bob Corker, R-Tenn, that would have set dates in 2009 by which the automakers receiving the loans had to reach cost cutting agreements with unions and creditors or be forced into bankruptcy. Corker said the two sides were very close to a deal and stumbled on the deadline for the union to agree to the reduced pay.
"We are about three words away from a deal," Corker said.
Currently, analysts estimate the union workers at U.S. automakers make about $3 to $4 per hour more than the non-union U.S. employees of foreign automakers like Toyota and Honda, according to the Center for Automotive Research.
The benefit costs are significantly greater for U.S. automakers, though, because they have to pay health care costs for hundreds of thousands of retirees. The union agreed to close much of that gap in the 2007 labor agreements by shifting responsibility for retiree health care to union-controlled trust funds. But those changes won't take effect until 2010.
The House easily passed the bailout bill Wednesday night but it quickly ran into trouble in the Senate, where Republicans objected to several provisions.
Japan's Nikkei index plunged more than 4% in trading in Tokyo Friday following the collapse of the bill. U.S. stock market futures also tumbled after the vote and are pointing to a sharply lower open Friday.
12-12-2008, 06:44 AM
#347
I'm the Firestarter
Here is a perfect reason why this bailout will NOT work:
GM sales in 2007: 9,370,000 vehicles
Toyota sales in 2007: 9,366,418 vehicles
GM profit/loss in 2007: -$38,730,000,000 (-$4,055 per car)
Toyota profit in 2007: +$17,146,000,000 (+$1,874 per car)
Nearly the same amount of cars sold........What is GM doing wrong?
GM sales in 2007: 9,370,000 vehicles
Toyota sales in 2007: 9,366,418 vehicles
GM profit/loss in 2007: -$38,730,000,000 (-$4,055 per car)
Toyota profit in 2007: +$17,146,000,000 (+$1,874 per car)
Nearly the same amount of cars sold........What is GM doing wrong?
12-12-2008, 07:18 AM
#348
Go Giants
12-12-2008, 07:30 AM
#349
...while I'm also against the bailout, unless tons of strings are attached to make sure the Big 3 doesn't descend into suckage again, their claim of bankruptcy hurting customer loyalty and sales is very true. The general public sees bankruptcy as "going out of business (or at least soon)" and not "restructuring and reorganizing". Consumers lose a lot of confidence in any company that goes bankrupt, let alone a company that sells products that cost tens of thousands of dollars.
How many bankrupt airlines are still flown by consumers?
12-12-2008, 07:33 AM
#350
Senior Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2001
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I don't understand why the lawmakers are giving the auto mfrs. such a hard time. They are asking for a loan, not a freebie (like AIG) and a fraction of what the banks got for no promises of anything in return. I am not a lover of the way the car companies were run into the ground, but I do sympathize with the workers who are expected to give everything to a company that cannot guarantee their future. I'm no union lover either believe me but the UAW did give some big concessions (postponing pension payments) in an effort to help.
I can't wait to see what happens to the stock market today
I can't wait to see what happens to the stock market today
12-12-2008, 07:48 AM
#352
I don't understand why the lawmakers are giving the auto mfrs. such a hard time. They are asking for a loan, not a freebie (like AIG) and a fraction of what the banks got for no promises of anything in return. I am not a lover of the way the car companies were run into the ground, but I do sympathize with the workers who are expected to give everything to a company that cannot guarantee their future. I'm no union lover either believe me but the UAW did give some big concessions (postponing pension payments) in an effort to help.
I can't wait to see what happens to the stock market today
I can't wait to see what happens to the stock market today
12-12-2008, 07:51 AM
#353
^ Doubtful. Bush will divert some of the $700B to end-run the Senate, because he doesn't want to be responsible for their collapse.
and this has been posted here:
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=699238
and this has been posted here:
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=699238
12-12-2008, 07:51 AM
#354
Team Owner
iTrader: (4)
The market is going to tank today. And as much as I hate how much my 401K is losing, I think it was an important move to have this voted down. I don't see it as a good decision to just dump cash into something that is obviously flawed. They definitely need to restructure. And maybe one or two will not make it, and people will lose their jobs, but these are tough times for everyone.
12-12-2008, 07:53 AM
#355
The market is going to tank today. And as much as I hate how much my 401K is losing, I think it was an important move to have this voted down. I don't see it as a good decision to just dump cash into something that is obviously flawed. They definitely need to restructure. And maybe one or two will not make it, and people will lose their jobs, but these are tough times for everyone.
12-12-2008, 07:56 AM
#356
The market is going to tank today. And as much as I hate how much my 401K is losing, I think it was an important move to have this voted down. I don't see it as a good decision to just dump cash into something that is obviously flawed. They definitely need to restructure. And maybe one or two will not make it, and people will lose their jobs, but these are tough times for everyone.
12-12-2008, 08:01 AM
#357
Team Owner
iTrader: (4)
I think if they bail them out this time, they will be back in a year asking for more money. At what point do you say "NO!"
12-12-2008, 08:07 AM
#358
I know that a lot of us are in a position where taking a hit on our retirement funds or kid's college funds sucks. Most of us have quite a few more years to work.
I think if they bail them out this time, they will be back in a year asking for more money. At what point do you say "NO!"
I think if they bail them out this time, they will be back in a year asking for more money. At what point do you say "NO!"
12-12-2008, 08:26 AM
#360
I heard they attached a clause for a raise for the federal judges to the rescue bill. When shit like that goes down, you know it's just politics. I hate politicans with a passion. Even when the economy is in dire need, all they can think about is politics and their own agenda.
I have mixed emotions about the denied rescue bill. On one hand, I believe we shouldn't give it to them without a solid plan, but on the other, I am extremely concerned about the national and global economy. It's going to be a long year in 2009.
I have mixed emotions about the denied rescue bill. On one hand, I believe we shouldn't give it to them without a solid plan, but on the other, I am extremely concerned about the national and global economy. It's going to be a long year in 2009.