C&D comparo: RL vs A6 V8 vs 530i vs STS V8 vs M45 vs S-Type V8 vs GS430 vs E350
03-23-2005, 06:57 PM
#1
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: philly
Posts: 4,426
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
C&D comparo: RL vs A6 V8 vs 530i vs STS V8 vs M45 vs S-Type V8 vs GS430 vs E350
Acura RL Audi A6 4.2 Quattro BMW 530i Cadillac STS V-8
Infiniti M45 Sport Jaguar S-type 4.2 VDP Edition
Lexus GS430 Mercedes-Benz E350
Acura RL ■ Audi A6 4.2 Quattro ■ BMW 530i ■ Cadillac STS V-8
Infiniti M45 Sport ■ Jaguar S-type 4.2 VDP Edition
Lexus GS430 ■ Mercedes-Benz E350
http://secure.grubbs.com/cardriver.pdf
1. Infiniti M45 Sport
2. Acura RL
3. Lexus GS430
4. Mercedes-Benz E350
5. Audi A6 4.2 Quattro
6. BMW 530i
7. Cadillac STS V8
8. Jaguar S-Type 4.2 VDP Edition
Infiniti M45 Sport Jaguar S-type 4.2 VDP Edition
Lexus GS430 Mercedes-Benz E350
Acura RL ■ Audi A6 4.2 Quattro ■ BMW 530i ■ Cadillac STS V-8
Infiniti M45 Sport ■ Jaguar S-type 4.2 VDP Edition
Lexus GS430 ■ Mercedes-Benz E350
http://secure.grubbs.com/cardriver.pdf
1. Infiniti M45 Sport
2. Acura RL
3. Lexus GS430
4. Mercedes-Benz E350
5. Audi A6 4.2 Quattro
6. BMW 530i
7. Cadillac STS V8
8. Jaguar S-Type 4.2 VDP Edition
03-23-2005, 08:14 PM
#3
The hair says it all
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Manhattan, NYC
Age: 37
Posts: 7,566
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by MSZ
4 V6s and 4 V8s? Is it even a fair comparsion?
03-23-2005, 08:29 PM
#4
Chloe @ 17mo
Originally Posted by Python2121
if you build a car that is the same price, same size, and same class as a v8 (though some would say that a v8 changes teh class, but i wouldn't agree) how can you not compare them?
Can't believe RL came in second though.
Trending Topics
03-23-2005, 08:47 PM
#9
It's rather interesting to look at the actual "As Tested Price" for all the cars and see the disparity.
I think this comparo does a fair job of comparing the luxury features of the cars, which just a pinch of performance bias thrown in for good measure. Nice to see BMW didn't make the top three and that the top three all came from Japan. Have the Japanese managed to usurp the mid-size luxury sedan throne from the Germans?
I think this comparo does a fair job of comparing the luxury features of the cars, which just a pinch of performance bias thrown in for good measure. Nice to see BMW didn't make the top three and that the top three all came from Japan. Have the Japanese managed to usurp the mid-size luxury sedan throne from the Germans?
03-23-2005, 11:21 PM
#11
Drifting
finally acura and infiniti takes the top spot in the luxury division. im happy for them. germans and lexus has been on top for way too long and im really getting bored of their reign. glad its over. its acura and infiniti from here on out!
03-23-2005, 11:23 PM
#12
If you read the article from that pdf file, C&D said they capped the price at 55K so they could include the RL. Hence, the disparity in engines because that inclusion for the RL forced them to also go with 6-bangers from BMW and Mercedes. Otherwise, the RL would've been the only 6-cylinder player there, as it's the only one without a V8 :captainobvious:
It's nice to see the RL in second despite the missing 2-cylinders. Although C&D gave it an 8 in the handling department, behing the other RWD cars, tying it with the Audi and the MB, and beating the Caddy and the Jaguar (which really isn't saying much).
It's nice to see the RL in second despite the missing 2-cylinders. Although C&D gave it an 8 in the handling department, behing the other RWD cars, tying it with the Audi and the MB, and beating the Caddy and the Jaguar (which really isn't saying much).
03-23-2005, 11:40 PM
#13
styling on you
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles, California
Age: 34
Posts: 5,274
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
1 Post
Originally Posted by TLProspect
for the RL! Hopefully a bit of proof to the nay-sayers who doubted Acura's ability to make true luxury cars to compete with the Germans and Lexus. I bet 1SICKLEX is livid...http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155959
03-23-2005, 11:58 PM
#14
Drifting
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Sunshine State
Posts: 2,054
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here's another thread on them:
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/show...9&page=1&pp=40
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/show...9&page=1&pp=40
03-24-2005, 12:03 AM
#15
Racer
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
see for yourself. they dismiss the RL saying that C&D are biased to Honda etc etc.
03-24-2005, 12:11 AM
#16
Advanced
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Central Jersey & Philly
Age: 40
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Man, the Japs raped the Germans at their own game good job!! Every car is deserving of there spots, however I would have liked to see the GS in the #2 spot or atleast tied with the RL. And the Bimmer a few notches up. But whatever. Top 3 are Japs, how can you go wrong. Matter of fact, no car in this comparo is bad. I personally dont see a major advantage of one car over the other, its just boils down to personal preference to me. I'd be happy to have anyone of these cars in my driveway. Without a doubt.
And yeah I'm in those other threads too!!!
And yeah I'm in those other threads too!!!
03-24-2005, 01:34 PM
#17
Moderator Alumnus
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Washington DC (NOVA)
Age: 52
Posts: 16,399
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes
on
8 Posts
Originally Posted by CGTSX2004
Have the Japanese managed to usurp the mid-size luxury sedan throne from the Germans?
If it hasn't happened yet, it's very close to happening. In my book, it has.
03-24-2005, 02:03 PM
#19
Moderator Alumnus
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Washington DC (NOVA)
Age: 52
Posts: 16,399
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes
on
8 Posts
Originally Posted by MSZ
4 V6s and 4 V8s? Is it even a fair comparsion?
From the article:
Ideally, all the cars in this test would
have similar engine types. But we wanted
a price cap of $55,000 (to make sure
Acura’s relatively affordable new V-6–
powered RL would qualify), and that
restricted us to six-cylinder models from
the increasingly costly BMW and Mercedes
ranges, too.
have similar engine types. But we wanted
a price cap of $55,000 (to make sure
Acura’s relatively affordable new V-6–
powered RL would qualify), and that
restricted us to six-cylinder models from
the increasingly costly BMW and Mercedes
ranges, too.
03-24-2005, 02:04 PM
#20
Moderator Alumnus
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Washington DC (NOVA)
Age: 52
Posts: 16,399
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes
on
8 Posts
Originally Posted by CGTSX2004
They have in my book too, but you know some people like gilbo would never admit to it. 
If everyone admited to it, then no one would be buying BMWs and MBs currently.
03-24-2005, 02:06 PM
#21
Moderator Alumnus
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Washington DC (NOVA)
Age: 52
Posts: 16,399
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes
on
8 Posts
The price cap was not particularly good
news for BMW, whose otherwise estimable
530i is only a few months shy of a
new 3.0-liter engine invigorated by an
extra 30 horsepower. Since it’s a superb
vehicle even with the engine we had, more
thrust might well have improved this car’s
position in our rankings—even at a fairly
steep $54,720 as-tested price.
news for BMW, whose otherwise estimable
530i is only a few months shy of a
new 3.0-liter engine invigorated by an
extra 30 horsepower. Since it’s a superb
vehicle even with the engine we had, more
thrust might well have improved this car’s
position in our rankings—even at a fairly
steep $54,720 as-tested price.
> *
03-24-2005, 02:31 PM
#23
Moderator Alumnus
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Washington DC (NOVA)
Age: 52
Posts: 16,399
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes
on
8 Posts
Although the Jaguar has the most
formal roofline of the bunch, interior space
is not its strong suit. Rear-seat passengers
were particularly vocal about poor armrest
location, difficult ingress, limited shoulder
room, and general discomfort. “It feels like
coach,” said one unhappy occupant.
03-24-2005, 02:33 PM
#24
Moderator Alumnus
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Washington DC (NOVA)
Age: 52
Posts: 16,399
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes
on
8 Posts
Cadillac’s product-development crew
has taken to calibrating its newest cars’
suspensions in Germany on the Nürburgring’s
Nordschleife. This paid big dividends
on the CTS and CTS-V models, but
honestly, it’s difficult imagining the base
STS in the same environment. It’s just too
soft. There’s an available Sport package,
but it puts the STS’s price above $60,000.
That’s a pity, because the comfy-riding
standard version was somewhat out of
place in the hands of our manic testers.
has taken to calibrating its newest cars’
suspensions in Germany on the Nürburgring’s
Nordschleife. This paid big dividends
on the CTS and CTS-V models, but
honestly, it’s difficult imagining the base
STS in the same environment. It’s just too
soft. There’s an available Sport package,
but it puts the STS’s price above $60,000.
That’s a pity, because the comfy-riding
standard version was somewhat out of
place in the hands of our manic testers.
I bet the main reason why the STS did so bad in this test is because of the above reason. "It's too soft".
03-24-2005, 02:40 PM
#25
Moderator Alumnus
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Washington DC (NOVA)
Age: 52
Posts: 16,399
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes
on
8 Posts
Looking at the tires:
RL = P245/50R-17
A6 = 245/40R-18
530 = 225/50R-17
STS = P235/50R-17
E350 = 225/55R-16
Concentrating on width mostly, considering the RL is AWD and lacks low end torque, dont you think it's over-tired? Same for the A6.
Considering the BMW's emphasis on "sport", plus being RWD, dont you think it's under-tired? Same for the E350?
RL = P245/50R-17
A6 = 245/40R-18
530 = 225/50R-17
STS = P235/50R-17
E350 = 225/55R-16
Concentrating on width mostly, considering the RL is AWD and lacks low end torque, dont you think it's over-tired? Same for the A6.
Considering the BMW's emphasis on "sport", plus being RWD, dont you think it's under-tired? Same for the E350?
03-24-2005, 02:47 PM
#26
Burn some dust here
Japan is definitely catching up (or has caught up) to Germany. I would like to see a test using these choices though:
M45 Sport
Acura RL
A6 4.2
E500 (or E550 when it comes out)
545i (or 550i when it comes out)
S-Type R
GS430
STS V8 Sport
Basically the top end models for each car (excluding E55 and M5) are based on every aspect while ignoring price. I think it would be interesting to see which one they really classify as the "best."
M45 Sport
Acura RL
A6 4.2
E500 (or E550 when it comes out)
545i (or 550i when it comes out)
S-Type R
GS430
STS V8 Sport
Basically the top end models for each car (excluding E55 and M5) are based on every aspect while ignoring price. I think it would be interesting to see which one they really classify as the "best."
03-24-2005, 02:48 PM
#27
Moderator Alumnus
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Washington DC (NOVA)
Age: 52
Posts: 16,399
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes
on
8 Posts
To compound the power shortfall, the
manumatic six-speed in our test car,which
shifts opposite the direction in most other
systems, resisted our inputs with pigheaded
obduracy, particularly on the tight
Streets of Willow road course, where it
would simply ignore requests. Other times
it would shift without being asked. So, an
extreme track tool the 530i is not.
03-24-2005, 02:48 PM
#28
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by TLProspect
I could've guessed. He's like a broken record, I hated it when he would come here and bash Acura, unprovoked, and then get angry on the defensive. He never gave credit, even when it was due, unless it was Lexus-related, then we could expect it to be posted up-to-the minute in the Auto News section. Oh well, at least it looks like some people at ClubLex aren't buying the "Honda bias" story- If anything, C&D has a bias towards BMW, and as you can see, they aren't even in the Top 3. I don't buy 1SICKLEX's story for one second.
Banning his sorry ass was the best thing Soopa's ever done.
03-24-2005, 02:54 PM
#29
Senior Moderator
C/D is biased? please explain how so...
i thought you guys said C/D always bimmer biased? but it ranked 6th ?
i thought you guys said C/D always bimmer biased? but it ranked 6th ?
Dumb shit.
03-24-2005, 03:23 PM
#32
Suzuka Master
Originally Posted by MADCAT
C/D is the most un-biased magazine. The treat and judge all cars equally.
While I subscribe to Car and Driver (in addition to Car [UK], Automobile, Evo, and Road & Track...I don't really rank C/D up there very high. I'll rank Road & Track 1st, Car 2nd, Car and Driver 3rd, Evo 4th, and Automobile 5th.
Car and Driver is hella-biased. They love the Big 3 a little too much.
03-24-2005, 04:02 PM
#33
Moderator Alumnus
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Washington DC (NOVA)
Age: 52
Posts: 16,399
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes
on
8 Posts
Originally Posted by cob3683
Japan is definitely catching up (or has caught up) to Germany. I would like to see a test using these choices though:
M45 Sport
Acura RL
A6 4.2
E500 (or E550 when it comes out)
545i (or 550i when it comes out)
S-Type R
GS430
STS V8 Sport
Basically the top end models for each car (excluding E55 and M5) are based on every aspect while ignoring price. I think it would be interesting to see which one they really classify as the "best."
M45 Sport
Acura RL
A6 4.2
E500 (or E550 when it comes out)
545i (or 550i when it comes out)
S-Type R
GS430
STS V8 Sport
Basically the top end models for each car (excluding E55 and M5) are based on every aspect while ignoring price. I think it would be interesting to see which one they really classify as the "best."
03-24-2005, 07:03 PM
#35
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by cob3683
Japan is definitely catching up (or has caught up) to Germany. I would like to see a test using these choices though:
M45 Sport
Acura RL
A6 4.2
E500 (or E550 when it comes out)
545i (or 550i when it comes out)
S-Type R
GS430
STS V8 Sport
Basically the top end models for each car (excluding E55 and M5) are based on every aspect while ignoring price. I think it would be interesting to see which one they really classify as the "best."
M45 Sport
Acura RL
A6 4.2
E500 (or E550 when it comes out)
545i (or 550i when it comes out)
S-Type R
GS430
STS V8 Sport
Basically the top end models for each car (excluding E55 and M5) are based on every aspect while ignoring price. I think it would be interesting to see which one they really classify as the "best."
03-24-2005, 07:20 PM
#36
6G TLX-S
Originally Posted by gavriil
Looking at the tires:
RL = P245/50R-17
A6 = 245/40R-18
530 = 225/50R-17
STS = P235/50R-17
E350 = 225/55R-16
Concentrating on width mostly, considering the RL is AWD and lacks low end torque, dont you think it's over-tired? Same for the A6.
RL = P245/50R-17
A6 = 245/40R-18
530 = 225/50R-17
STS = P235/50R-17
E350 = 225/55R-16
Concentrating on width mostly, considering the RL is AWD and lacks low end torque, dont you think it's over-tired? Same for the A6.
03-24-2005, 08:27 PM
#37
goldmemberererer
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: West Hills, CA
Posts: 1,736
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Edward'TLS
Absolutely. The tires are too wide, considering there are four driving wheels instead of two. Wide tires will only make the car even slower, especially with the low-end-torque deprived V6.
I don't really care for the V8 thing, I know the subject is trite. Was talking about the market moreso than myself.
03-24-2005, 09:44 PM
#38
I'm the Firestarter
They should have used the RL A-spec to make up for the low price.
03-24-2005, 10:26 PM
#39
Burn some dust here
Originally Posted by vishnus11
S-Type R a lil too strong dont ya think! 390horses!
03-25-2005, 07:43 PM
#40
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: philly
Posts: 4,426
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Belzebutt
They should have used the RL A-spec to make up for the low price.
Soon image will catch up with the Japanese brands and the Germans will find it hard to maintain market share. Lexus already has sucked up a huge chunk by itself. Once Inifinitis and Acuras product line develop, they (BMW & Benz) will certainly feel it.