Bob Lutz on the Quality of GM vehicles vs. the rest
02-24-2005, 02:09 PM
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Bob Lutz on the Quality of GM vehicles vs. the rest
Best in Class? Taste for Yourself - - By Bob Lutz - GM Vice Chairman - - Source: fastlane.gmblogs.com
As I said before we appreciate all of the comments... positive and critical, keep 'em coming. I would love to address more of them directly if there were more hours in the day. Every so often, however, a comment cries out for a response so loudly that I have to put thumbs to Blackberry. The following is one of those:
"Mr. Lutz, I'm looking for an excuse to ‘buy American,’ after switching to Japanese vehicles 15 years ago. Unfortunately, I'm still looking for that excuse. With all the talent and resources that GM has, why can't every GM division have at least ONE vehicle that is best in class for design, quality and performance? AND outsells the Japanese competition?"
First of all, just as with cigars, wine and gin, you are making a potential mistake if you are basing your decision solely on country of origin. Sure, reputation plays a big role, but check it out carefully, and go drive, or sip, or puff, and then decide.
The quality issue is a particular sticking point.
Mid-size Buicks have the best initial quality and the best long-term (3 years measured by Consumer Reports) dependability of any mid-size sedans in the world. And that includes Toyota, Honda, and Nissan. Not to mention Mercedes, which is not stellar.
Many GM makes outscore the Toyota brand on J.D. Power quality. Toyota is only Number One when it's measured as “Toyota Corp.,” which includes Lexus.
Our full-size utilities, GMC Yukon and Chevrolet Tahoe and Suburban, handily win against all domestic and foreign competition on J.D. Power quality.
So, why is this not better known?
It’s largely because the general press in this country has fallen into a depressing but easy pattern of “foreign good, U.S.-produced bad.” They perpetuate conventional wisdom and don't report the latest state. I remember the time of the Daimler takeover of Chrysler in '98. The press essentially concluded, almost unanimously, “One good thing is that Mercedes will finally bring quality to Chrysler.”
Hello! If they had bothered to check the data, they would have found that Chrysler quality was already significantly better than Mercedes, and it presumably still is today.
In short, we are all trying to live down a reputation that was probably at one time deserved, but is no longer justified. Will we ever be able to change it? One mind at a time, and you can help by going out and trying a new Buick Lacrosse, a Pontiac G6, any Cadillac, or the all-new Chevrolet Cobalt, which, in terms of ride, handling, refinement and body fits I will willingly put against a Civic or Corolla.
And the initial quality, based on our own early returns, is at or better than the best in class on all three. And, important point, only GM plans to equip every one of its vehicles with OnStar, arguably the biggest single contribution to on-road safety and security in the business.
Don't take my word on any of this. Check the data, and go make comparison drives. As Iacocca used to say, “If you can find a better car (at or near the same price) buy it!”
It's a hard road back, but we do deserve your consideration.
JD Power Quality Report
"Mr. Lutz, I'm looking for an excuse to ‘buy American,’ after switching to Japanese vehicles 15 years ago. Unfortunately, I'm still looking for that excuse. With all the talent and resources that GM has, why can't every GM division have at least ONE vehicle that is best in class for design, quality and performance? AND outsells the Japanese competition?"
First of all, just as with cigars, wine and gin, you are making a potential mistake if you are basing your decision solely on country of origin. Sure, reputation plays a big role, but check it out carefully, and go drive, or sip, or puff, and then decide.
The quality issue is a particular sticking point.
Mid-size Buicks have the best initial quality and the best long-term (3 years measured by Consumer Reports) dependability of any mid-size sedans in the world. And that includes Toyota, Honda, and Nissan. Not to mention Mercedes, which is not stellar.
Many GM makes outscore the Toyota brand on J.D. Power quality. Toyota is only Number One when it's measured as “Toyota Corp.,” which includes Lexus.
Our full-size utilities, GMC Yukon and Chevrolet Tahoe and Suburban, handily win against all domestic and foreign competition on J.D. Power quality.
So, why is this not better known?
It’s largely because the general press in this country has fallen into a depressing but easy pattern of “foreign good, U.S.-produced bad.” They perpetuate conventional wisdom and don't report the latest state. I remember the time of the Daimler takeover of Chrysler in '98. The press essentially concluded, almost unanimously, “One good thing is that Mercedes will finally bring quality to Chrysler.”
Hello! If they had bothered to check the data, they would have found that Chrysler quality was already significantly better than Mercedes, and it presumably still is today.
In short, we are all trying to live down a reputation that was probably at one time deserved, but is no longer justified. Will we ever be able to change it? One mind at a time, and you can help by going out and trying a new Buick Lacrosse, a Pontiac G6, any Cadillac, or the all-new Chevrolet Cobalt, which, in terms of ride, handling, refinement and body fits I will willingly put against a Civic or Corolla.
And the initial quality, based on our own early returns, is at or better than the best in class on all three. And, important point, only GM plans to equip every one of its vehicles with OnStar, arguably the biggest single contribution to on-road safety and security in the business.
Don't take my word on any of this. Check the data, and go make comparison drives. As Iacocca used to say, “If you can find a better car (at or near the same price) buy it!”
It's a hard road back, but we do deserve your consideration.
JD Power Quality Report
02-24-2005, 02:10 PM
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Hello! If they had bothered to check the data, they would have found that Chrysler quality was already significantly better than Mercedes, and it presumably still is today.
02-24-2005, 02:11 PM
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or the all-new Chevrolet Cobalt, which, in terms of ride, handling, refinement and body fits I will willingly put against a Civic or Corolla.
02-24-2005, 02:40 PM
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Don't take my word on any of this. Check the data, and go make comparison drives. As Iacocca used to say, “If you can find a better car (at or near the same price) buy it!”
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02-24-2005, 02:59 PM
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lutz is rigth about reliability in that respect, maybe preformance (ill take a cobalt over a corolla in terms of preformance), but quality of parts is terrible (except on caddy)
has anyone sat on the leather in the grand prix? its so slick you just slide around, and theres no quality
sure crysler is more reliable then mercedes, but i swear some of them have the quality parts comprable to a fisher price toy
has anyone sat on the leather in the grand prix? its so slick you just slide around, and theres no quality
sure crysler is more reliable then mercedes, but i swear some of them have the quality parts comprable to a fisher price toy
02-24-2005, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Python2121
lutz is rigth about reliability in that respect, maybe preformance (ill take a cobalt over a corolla in terms of preformance), but quality of parts is terrible (except on caddy)
has anyone sat on the leather in the grand prix? its so slick you just slide around, and theres no quality
sure crysler is more reliable then mercedes, but i swear some of them have the quality parts comprable to a fisher price toy
has anyone sat on the leather in the grand prix? its so slick you just slide around, and theres no quality
sure crysler is more reliable then mercedes, but i swear some of them have the quality parts comprable to a fisher price toy
I agree. Also the message you deleted I also agree, why dont you undelete it?
02-24-2005, 03:40 PM
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He was so busy talking that he didn't bother to answer the question ( why can't every GM division have at least ONE vehicle that is best in class for design, quality and performance? AND outsells the Japanese competition?" ).
02-24-2005, 03:44 PM
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I agree that the GM cars are better than they were and I have never really had a problem with any that I have owned, including the tahoe I am driving now. The Escalade my dad just got is phenominal on the inside. Outside of a Cayenne Turbo or G55, I would take it over any SUV in production. The quality in it absolutely blew me away.
And I agree with ^^^^^ on class leading. It seems they have addressed that with the Corvette and Escalade, but many others still have a long way to go.
And I agree with ^^^^^ on class leading. It seems they have addressed that with the Corvette and Escalade, but many others still have a long way to go.
02-24-2005, 03:57 PM
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I went inside of an Escalade at the Autoshow and I almost vomited. It was basically a Chevy pickup interior with a nice body. I almost really vomited when I saw the price.
Originally Posted by cob3683
I agree that the GM cars are better than they were and I have never really had a problem with any that I have owned, including the tahoe I am driving now. The Escalade my dad just got is phenominal on the inside. Outside of a Cayenne Turbo or G55, I would take it over any SUV in production. The quality in it absolutely blew me away.
And I agree with ^^^^^ on class leading. It seems they have addressed that with the Corvette and Escalade, but many others still have a long way to go.
And I agree with ^^^^^ on class leading. It seems they have addressed that with the Corvette and Escalade, but many others still have a long way to go.
02-24-2005, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by MADCAT
I went inside of an Escalade at the Autoshow and I almost vomited. It was basically a Chevy pickup interior with a nice body. I almost really vomited when I saw the price.
02-24-2005, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by DownUnder
Navigator's have a much better interior then the Escalades.
02-24-2005, 04:44 PM
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I think Lutz is mixing quality and reliability...
Reliability has come a long way for Us makers now, but quality and 'desire-ability' of the US cars is what's sorely lacking. It's improved since the late 90's, with such products as the 300, but a majority are still lacking.
Junkster, who thinks Lutz has been out of it for the past three years
Reliability has come a long way for Us makers now, but quality and 'desire-ability' of the US cars is what's sorely lacking. It's improved since the late 90's, with such products as the 300, but a majority are still lacking.
Junkster, who thinks Lutz has been out of it for the past three years
02-25-2005, 09:16 AM
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Lutz is a smart man. The only thing my reading comprehension took out of that exerpt in regards to GM's quality is that the Yukon, Tahoe, Burban are tops in class. I can agree with that since the class is so damn small and Trucks are there bread and butter. Now, take the trucks away from GM and what do you have quality/reliability wise Lutz? That's the question.
Cob,
You must be on CRACK! How in the hell could you ever think the interior of the Escalade is nice. I guess you have never been in a Tahoe, Denali, Burban, or a Chevy pickup truck. THEY ARE ALL THE DAMN SAME INSIDE! There is not one nice luxury thing about the damn Escalade. Now, compare the navigators interior to the escalade or even the Ford trucks that it is based off of and you will see what a true luxury vehicle should look like inside.
Cob,
You must be on CRACK! How in the hell could you ever think the interior of the Escalade is nice. I guess you have never been in a Tahoe, Denali, Burban, or a Chevy pickup truck. THEY ARE ALL THE DAMN SAME INSIDE! There is not one nice luxury thing about the damn Escalade. Now, compare the navigators interior to the escalade or even the Ford trucks that it is based off of and you will see what a true luxury vehicle should look like inside.
02-25-2005, 10:36 AM
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agreed...and why would any compare a GM truck to a LEXUS SUV? Thats like comparing your big house to Buckingham Palace.
Originally Posted by bl^5
Lutz is a smart man. The only thing my reading comprehension took out of that exerpt in regards to GM's quality is that the Yukon, Tahoe, Burban are tops in class. I can agree with that since the class is so damn small and Trucks are there bread and butter. Now, take the trucks away from GM and what do you have quality/reliability wise Lutz? That's the question.
Cob,
You must be on CRACK! How in the hell could you ever think the interior of the Escalade is nice. I guess you have never been in a Tahoe, Denali, Burban, or a Chevy pickup truck. THEY ARE ALL THE DAMN SAME INSIDE! There is not one nice luxury thing about the damn Escalade. Now, compare the navigators interior to the escalade or even the Ford trucks that it is based off of and you will see what a true luxury vehicle should look like inside.
Cob,
You must be on CRACK! How in the hell could you ever think the interior of the Escalade is nice. I guess you have never been in a Tahoe, Denali, Burban, or a Chevy pickup truck. THEY ARE ALL THE DAMN SAME INSIDE! There is not one nice luxury thing about the damn Escalade. Now, compare the navigators interior to the escalade or even the Ford trucks that it is based off of and you will see what a true luxury vehicle should look like inside.
02-25-2005, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by PistonFan
If GM cars were best in class, people would buy them in droves. Period.
02-25-2005, 12:04 PM
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You guys need to read the link above from JD Power. Bob is just referring to it, he didnt come up with all this stuff himself.
Also reliability is different to quality, but can also be related at times. Also, interior design is also different than the two above.
Also reliability is different to quality, but can also be related at times. Also, interior design is also different than the two above.
02-25-2005, 12:24 PM
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Lutz says:
"Many GM makes outscore the Toyota brand on J.D. Power quality."
And a reader replied:
Well, in initial quality rankings for 2004, only two brands, Buick and Caddy, out of 7 domestic brands beat Toyota. I wouldn't call that many. And Lexus still tops everyone. (OTOH, Scion doesn't look good in 2004.) In the 3-year rankings, Toyota models really clean up, with several top rated vehicles.
"Many GM makes outscore the Toyota brand on J.D. Power quality."
And a reader replied:
Well, in initial quality rankings for 2004, only two brands, Buick and Caddy, out of 7 domestic brands beat Toyota. I wouldn't call that many. And Lexus still tops everyone. (OTOH, Scion doesn't look good in 2004.) In the 3-year rankings, Toyota models really clean up, with several top rated vehicles.
02-25-2005, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Lutz
Don't take my word on any of this. Check the data, and go make comparison drives. As Iacocca used to say, “If you can find a better car (at or near the same price) buy it!”
But that said Bob:
Originally Posted by John Porretto, AP
For the first 11 months of 2004, the Big Three's U.S. share _ excluding foreign brands _ stood at 58.7 percent, down from 60 percent a year earlier. For the same period Asian makes grew their stake from 32.8 percent a year ago to 34.5 percent.
To wit, I'd ask Mr. Lutz one question: Price being equal, why should I pick a Pontiac G6 or Chevrolet Malibu over a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry??
02-25-2005, 12:54 PM
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my cousin has an anniversery edition corvette, about 5000 miles on it. We washed it the other week when it was nice out.
The interior side of the doors were all wet because the windows on BOTH sides leak where the window seals against the a-pillar.
how's that for quality?
The interior side of the doors were all wet because the windows on BOTH sides leak where the window seals against the a-pillar.
how's that for quality?
02-25-2005, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by bl^5
Cob,
You must be on CRACK! How in the hell could you ever think the interior of the Escalade is nice. I guess you have never been in a Tahoe, Denali, Burban, or a Chevy pickup truck. THEY ARE ALL THE DAMN SAME INSIDE! There is not one nice luxury thing about the damn Escalade. Now, compare the navigators interior to the escalade or even the Ford trucks that it is based off of and you will see what a true luxury vehicle should look like inside.
You must be on CRACK! How in the hell could you ever think the interior of the Escalade is nice. I guess you have never been in a Tahoe, Denali, Burban, or a Chevy pickup truck. THEY ARE ALL THE DAMN SAME INSIDE! There is not one nice luxury thing about the damn Escalade. Now, compare the navigators interior to the escalade or even the Ford trucks that it is based off of and you will see what a true luxury vehicle should look like inside.
1) I currently drive a Z71 Tahoe
2) No, they arent all the same
Now if you own or have owned these cars in your past and have been able to see what the short and long term quality is on them (Tahoe, Navigator, and Escalade) then I value your opinion. But if you're one of these people that just go sit in a car and say "eh, american, it sucks" then you really don't know.
So have you actually owned them?
02-25-2005, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by MADCAT
agreed...and why would any compare a GM truck to a LEXUS SUV? Thats like comparing your big house to Buckingham Palace.
02-25-2005, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by gavriil
People are buying them in droves. No one sells more of them dude.
People are buying them in droves. No one sells more of them dude.
Whoaaa....wha, wha, WHAT?
Earth to gavriil...er, I mean earth to earth?
Reality check bro. Check GM's market share percentage over the last 30 years.
02-25-2005, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by PistonFan
If GM cars were best in class, people would buy them in droves. Period.
02-25-2005, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by kansaiwalker1
Lutz says:
"Many GM makes outscore the Toyota brand on J.D. Power quality."
And a reader replied:
Well, in initial quality rankings for 2004, only two brands, Buick and Caddy, out of 7 domestic brands beat Toyota. I wouldn't call that many. And Lexus still tops everyone. (OTOH, Scion doesn't look good in 2004.) In the 3-year rankings, Toyota models really clean up, with several top rated vehicles.
"Many GM makes outscore the Toyota brand on J.D. Power quality."
And a reader replied:
Well, in initial quality rankings for 2004, only two brands, Buick and Caddy, out of 7 domestic brands beat Toyota. I wouldn't call that many. And Lexus still tops everyone. (OTOH, Scion doesn't look good in 2004.) In the 3-year rankings, Toyota models really clean up, with several top rated vehicles.
02-25-2005, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by titan
AMEN
The lexus lx is nothing special today and should be grouped with the navigator, infiniti qx, and escallade. I don't think any of these are horrible but they aren't great either. Can look at a toureg thats 10+k cheaper and understand other companies know how to make a great luxury suv, even so much that its better than all of these higher priced models.
I can see where the hate comes with the caddy, its the same as with the qx, both share the same exact interior design as a cheaper model. The navigator has a different interior than lower models although its the same cheap feeling plastic imo, felt like the same plastic as used in the LS.
02-25-2005, 08:43 PM
#34
Got da Internet Goin Nutz
Originally Posted by cob3683
Couple things
1) I currently drive a Z71 Tahoe
2) No, they arent all the same
Now if you own or have owned these cars in your past and have been able to see what the short and long term quality is on them (Tahoe, Navigator, and Escalade) then I value your opinion. But if you're one of these people that just go sit in a car and say "eh, american, it sucks" then you really don't know.
So have you actually owned them?
1) I currently drive a Z71 Tahoe
2) No, they arent all the same
Now if you own or have owned these cars in your past and have been able to see what the short and long term quality is on them (Tahoe, Navigator, and Escalade) then I value your opinion. But if you're one of these people that just go sit in a car and say "eh, american, it sucks" then you really don't know.
So have you actually owned them?
Reading comprehension is a real and important thing!
02-25-2005, 08:52 PM
#35
Got da Internet Goin Nutz
Originally Posted by cob3683
But if you're one of these people that just go sit in a car and say "eh, american, it sucks" then you really don't know.
So have you actually owned them?
So have you actually owned them?
02-25-2005, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by bl^5
Once again, reading comprehension. I at no point down played american made cars. I, as a matter of fact, was only comparing american made cars to american cars. I do as a matter of fact drive an american car and honestly my Acura CL was the only foreign car I have had and I must say I have NEVER had more problems with a car (my car previous to the ack was a '94 Saturn SL2 that I put 170K miles on and only did minor maintance to) and I only got rid of my Ack because I was afraid of the Tranny dying after 100K miles. I am the last person to knock a car because it is american made.
But are you talking about the "enterior" (possibly exterior) or are you talking about the "Interior?" I am just confused as to what youre talking about. Because if its exterior I agree. Thats how they save money. (expedition-navigator does the same thing)
But, to respond, I never said you were one of those people who put down american cars did I? I said I didn't know if you were. Also, there is a huge difference in the vehicles. Feel the dashboard and center console next time you are in one. Feel the leather difference. I am not saying this is Bentley quality but for someone who rides in both of these vehicles at least 3-4 times a week, I can tell you that they are 2 different vehicles.
Last thing, I agree and disagree on the price. The Tahoe I bought was around 48,*** out the door. The Escalade loaded was around 61,***. Big difference? Absolutely. But if you factor a 60hp difference, AWD, and I believe better materials, its not so tough to see. But IMO it should be under 60.
02-26-2005, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by F23A4
But that said Bob:Link
To wit, I'd ask Mr. Lutz one question: Price being equal, why should I pick a Pontiac G6 or Chevrolet Malibu over a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry??
BUt the price is not equal.
02-26-2005, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by PistonFan
Whoaaa....wha, wha, WHAT?
Earth to gavriil...er, I mean earth to earth?
Reality check bro. Check GM's market share percentage over the last 30 years.
Earth to gavriil...er, I mean earth to earth?
Reality check bro. Check GM's market share percentage over the last 30 years.
People are not buying them in droves you wrote. How can that be when GM sells more vehicles than anyone else.
02-26-2005, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by bl^5
Hmmm so I have to own an Escalade, Chevy truck, Tahoe, and Burban to tell the enterior of all them are the same? Ummm I don't think so! I have eyes, that is quite enough. I wasn't speaking on the interior qualities and I agree with you there, for long term quality/ergonomics/etc. I would need to own one or all of the above. I, however, was simply speaking on GM's lack of enginuity in designing an interior for the escalade but at the same time charging 15 to 20k more for it than for the Tahoe. That is simply rediculous!
Reading comprehension is a real and important thing!
Reading comprehension is a real and important thing!
What does interior design have to do with quality and reliability which is what Lutz is discussing here?
02-26-2005, 05:05 PM
#40
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Originally Posted by gavriil
BUt the price is not equal.
...guess you dont get the jist of the question. 
Sidebar:
G6 - $26,290 MSRP (w/ IB2, CF5 & UC6 pkgs)
AV6 EX - $27,365 MSRP (non-Navi)
...close enough to justify the question.
