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While attending North America’s first-ever M Festival at the Canadian Tire and Motorsport Park, our own Nico DeMattia sat down with the new CEO of BMW M, Markus Flasch, to talk about the state of affairs at M. Among many topics, Herr Flasch spoke briefly about the upcoming BMW M3 and M4. (Full interview here)
Without divulging many of the cars’ secrets – some of them already known to us – the M boss did confirm two things for us. Firstly, the G80 M3 and G82 M4 will have an all-wheel drive configuration, and secondly, there will be a manual transmission for the two cars.
“[]it’s a bit early to disclose all the details but something I want to highlight is that we will have a manual stick shift,” Flasch told us. “We have already disclosed we will have the option of four-wheel drive. We’ve not decided which variant, which system, but everything that’s on our current lineup; think of the M5; can be made available. The M3 and M4, I’ve driven the pre-production cars already and they’re fantastic.”
Furthermore, the new M Boss is a true car enthusiast, therefore, the manuals could be saved under his reign
“Manual is very important,” added Flasch. “The manual stick shift is not a performance-bringer, because an automatic transmission is just faster, you can ask any race driver. But it gives the vehicle character and I kind of compare it to people who love mechanical watches; it isn’t more precise and it doesn’t have any advantage at all but it’s a character feature. So is a stick shift. ”
The G80 M3 won’t make its official debut until mid-2020, which means it will go on sale as a 2021 model, but when it does, it will be powered by the new S58 engine with 473 hp as-standard. There will also be a competition model available at launch and that will pack the same engine but with 503 hp.
This new G80 BMW M3 will also be the first M3 in history to power all four wheels. According to our sources, there will be two models; a rear-wheel drive model and an all-wheel drive model; marking another first for the famed performance model. The rear-drive M3 will be available with either a manual gearbox or an eight-speed automatic, while the all-wheel drive car will be automatic only.
As for the M3 Competition, it will only be all-wheel drive and automatic.
I ordered my M340i at the end of July. With the loyalty/lease credit and a better MF for July, my MSRP is higher on the M340i but I'll be paying about $20/month less than I did on my 2017 340i!
Interestingly - on some of the BMW forums, Mission Performance Tuning has already unlocked the DME (ECU) on the M340i and is able to get the car to put down 409whp / 418.20 lb-ft without any changes to the car (compared to a stock dyno of 338whp / 381 lb-ft) and 435whp / 474 lb-ft with what they're calling "Stage 1.5" - not sure what changes that entails and they believe 500whp is possible with a bigger turbo.
Mission Performance requires you to send the DME to them to unlock it though, apparently BMW has added some additional "firewalls" to prevent flashing via the OBDII port. Mission Performance says they have the ability to do this via a user DIY OBD2 connection but they won't release it for fear of someone copying their work and instead will require you send them the DME unit to unlock (stupid in my opinion and I probably won't be buying it until they release a DIY capability).
Oh I forgot to add (too late to edit) - the other interesting part is MP says the first off the line M340is car made 400whp due to a bug in the DME firmware (they forgot to include SWT, a Tuning Authorization Certificate, not sure what this is). And they eventually released an update in July (not sure if it gets delivered OTA or if it only occurs when you bring it to the dealer), the early July update lowered the car down to 346whp (~390bhp) and then a second late July update lowered it further to 338whp (~382bhp) or roughly what BMW advertises is stock. For early cars, there is a recall notice for an emissions issue which supposedly is to lower the car back down from 400whp - kindof makes sense if the car is getting worse emissions because of the higher output.
I've heard that this is the same reason Supras and some Z4s are making more hp than expected (360-370whp) and some are making closer to 330whp.
Disappointing for me since my car is a late-July build, I'll end up with the 338whp version. But maybe I'll eventually get the Mission Performance tune on it to go up to 400whp if they ever release a DIY version.
That's what I'd think as well, as long as the shop doesn't check the flash count on the ECU, if there is one.
Probably partly depends on it you have a mod-friendly dealer/svc dept. Does BMW have an OEM+ like VW with OEM warranty approved tunes?
If I return the car back to stock when I turn the car back in, I'd think it'd be OK?
Just like any other mod, usually you need to return the car back to the way it was leased to you.
ECU tunes will automatically void the warranty, there's no such thing as a mod friendly dealership anymore because the mfg software automatically checks it as soon as the car is connected for diagnostics. The service tech has nothing to do with it, they don't have a choice.
Originally Posted by 00TL-P3.2
That's what I'd think as well, as long as the shop doesn't check the flash count on the ECU, if there is one.
Probably partly depends on it you have a mod-friendly dealer/svc dept. Does BMW have an OEM+ like VW with OEM warranty approved tunes?
VW doesn't have OEM warranty approved tunes. APR+ will void the VW warranty, APR just tosses on their own in place of it. Meaning if something were to go wrong, APR would pay for the repairs, not VW.
Like I said before, the shop doesn't have to check anything, the software automatically does it upon plugging the car in and will immediately flag the VIN as such.
I think the OEM+ for BMW is Dinan though I'm not sure about the warranty situation with those tunes.
That's what I'd think as well, as long as the shop doesn't check the flash count on the ECU, if there is one.
Probably partly depends on it you have a mod-friendly dealer/svc dept. Does BMW have an OEM+ like VW with OEM warranty approved tunes?
Dinan is usually the only 3rd party tuner that is "approved", realistically, what Dinan says is if a Dinan authorized dealer installs their products, they will pay for any warranty work instead of BMW.
I suspect BMW will release a MPPSK (M-Performance Power and Sound Kit) or something similar which was a factory tune providing +35hp and +39 lb-ft on the previous generation F30 340i - I'm actually curious if the first M340i off the line with 400whp was an accidental MPPSK tune or something similar. If they release one in the future and it gives you +48hp, to ~430hp - it could be very similar to those first off the line.
Mission Performance Tuning also says there is a way to lock the flash count on the ECU using their software.
ECU tunes will automatically void the warranty, there's no such thing as a mod friendly dealership anymore because the mfg software automatically checks it as soon as the car is connected for diagnostics. The service tech has nothing to do with it, they don't have a choice.
VW doesn't have OEM warranty approved tunes. APR+ will void the VW warranty, APR just tosses on their own in place of it. Meaning if something were to go wrong, APR would pay for the repairs, not VW.
Like I said before, the shop doesn't have to check anything, the software automatically does it upon plugging the car in and will immediately flag the VIN as such.
I think the OEM+ for BMW is Dinan though I'm not sure about the warranty situation with those tunes.
Well you could flash back to stock before you bring the car into the dealer, so if it were hooked up to the diagnostics, it would always come back with the stock tune and if you can lock the flash count, it shouldn't have a problem with that either. Not sure - but if data logs got cleared when the stock flash came back, they shouldn't see the aftermarket tune from data logs either.
Well you could flash back to stock before you bring the car into the dealer, so if it were hooked up to the diagnostics, it would always come back with the stock tune and if you can lock the flash count, it shouldn't have a problem with that either. Not sure - but if data logs got cleared when the stock flash came back, they shouldn't see the aftermarket tune from data logs either.
I've heard this isn't true. Dealerships can tell when you do this, too.
Yah i have also heard the exhaust note has been reduced as well... Even the X3 M40i owners have reported that they felt they lost sound and power since their last visit
As far as tuning, yes you can tune a leased car. But you also have to understand that if you blow up the engine or turbo, the dealer WILL find the evidence of tuning if they really wanted to... Flash/Unplug does not remove everything.
I personally would only do MPPK or Dinan on my car.. leased or not.... Cuz i dont want to pay 10k for an engine if it happens. does not matter if it is leased or financed.
I know I've read that one of the more popular piggybacks the Burger Tuning JB4 can be detected too because it shows in the data logs.
I totally understand that if I tune a leased car - and something bad happens due to the tune that it is totally on me (unless it is a factory tune like MPPSK or Dinan). But, I'd expect if the tune was close to / the same as the 400whp that the early M340i's had - it should be relatively safe.
It would be pretty shitty if true that your warranty gets voided if they look for / find evidence of a tune when you go in for an oil change. I've heard these rumors too - but I tend to go back to the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act that says that a manufacturer can't simply void a warranty unless they can prove a change you made actually caused the problem.
Originally Posted by oonowindoo
Yah i have also heard the exhaust note has been reduced as well... Even the X3 M40i owners have reported that they felt they lost sound and power since their last visit
As far as tuning, yes you can tune a leased car. But you also have to understand that if you blow up the engine or turbo, the dealer WILL find the evidence of tuning if they really wanted to... Flash/Unplug does not remove everything.
I personally would only do MPPK or Dinan on my car.. leased or not.... Cuz i dont want to pay 10k for an engine if it happens. does not matter if it is leased or financed.
I actually went to the BMW M-Town Tour yesterday and drove the M850i, M2 Comp, M5 Comp, X3M and M340i. The M340i I drove on the M-Town tour had a louder exhaust than the one I test drove at the dealer - I assumed it just took some miles for the exhaust to sound good. Still not as good as the MPPSK exhaust on my 340i. Hoping the M-Performance Exhaust becomes a Port Installed Option before my car arrives in the states! M340i actually felt faster / more fun than the X3M which I guess makes sense since the X3M is a lot heavier and has a similar 0-60. The M2 Comp and M5 Comp were amazing though - M5 comp just has so much power and sounded great. M2 Comp felt great on the roads. Wish it had 4 doors. Unfortunately the new 2-series Grand Coupe is going to be FWD based I believe.
99% of the time they are OK with it.... because to be honest, the tech doesnt know if the car is leased or bought... only the service manager does.
Just dont give them a reason to dig into it, then you are fine.... But there is also a risk of something... it could be something completely unrelated to your tune and because of the tune, they will void the warranty.
I think the MMW Act thing only works if they void your engine replacement warranty because of the aftermarket spring you had on... yes you have a case. ...
But if you messed up parts inside your engine bay.. they can easily blame it on the tune whether it is related or not... something along the line of "When you have added more hp and torque, you put more stress on the engine components that are not designed for it." I used to be a Service Adviser
Well you could flash back to stock before you bring the car into the dealer, so if it were hooked up to the diagnostics, it would always come back with the stock tune and if you can lock the flash count, it shouldn't have a problem with that either. Not sure - but if data logs got cleared when the stock flash came back, they shouldn't see the aftermarket tune from data logs either.
If BMW somehow missed the ability to lock the flash count, they royally screwed up but I call BS because every major manufacturer has had flash counters for years. Data logs and stuff may get cleared when flashing back to stock but the flash counter goes up by one. If the BMW diagnostic software is expecting a flash count of 1 (factory flash) and is instead readying 3 (factory, tune, back to factory) then they'll flag the VIN automatically. The technician doesn't have to do anything to make this happen, it's all automatic. The only way to have it not happen is for them to not plug the car in, which is a surefire way to get any engine warranty work denied anyway.
Originally Posted by LiQiCE
I know I've read that one of the more popular piggybacks the Burger Tuning JB4 can be detected too because it shows in the data logs.
I totally understand that if I tune a leased car - and something bad happens due to the tune that it is totally on me (unless it is a factory tune like MPPSK or Dinan). But, I'd expect if the tune was close to / the same as the 400whp that the early M340i's had - it should be relatively safe.
It would be pretty shitty if true that your warranty gets voided if they look for / find evidence of a tune when you go in for an oil change. I've heard these rumors too - but I tend to go back to the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act that says that a manufacturer can't simply void a warranty unless they can prove a change you made actually caused the problem.
They won't void your whole warranty, just anything having to do with the increased power/torque. If you bust your center console lid then that would still be covered.
I'm not going to tune my car with anything that doesn't provide a warranty for me. I didn't buy an expensive new car to immediately void my warranty lol.
If BMW somehow missed the ability to lock the flash count, they royally screwed up but I call BS because every major manufacturer has had flash counters for years. Data logs and stuff may get cleared when flashing back to stock but the flash counter goes up by one. If the BMW diagnostic software is expecting a flash count of 1 (factory flash) and is instead readying 3 (factory, tune, back to factory) then they'll flag the VIN automatically. The technician doesn't have to do anything to make this happen, it's all automatic. The only way to have it not happen is for them to not plug the car in, which is a surefire way to get any engine warranty work denied anyway.
They won't void your whole warranty, just anything having to do with the increased power/torque. If you bust your center console lid then that would still be covered.
I'm not going to tune my car with anything that doesn't provide a warranty for me. I didn't buy an expensive new car to immediately void my warranty lol.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree - the Mission Tuning website specifically calls out locking the flash counter as a feature.
^ this is the thing... when BMW does void your warranty.... are you gonna tell them Mission Tuning website says "blah blah blah"?
Do you think BMW cares?
I mean if you are willing to take that risk, then it is your call. But many people just dont wanna deal with that mess.
Even BMW will void the warranty on Dinan's software if something happens. The only difference is Dinan will take care of you themselves. That is what they meant by Dinan is OK.
^ this is the thing... when BMW does void your warranty.... are you gonna tell them Mission Tuning website says "blah blah blah"?
Do you think BMW cares?
I mean if you are willing to take that risk, then it is your call. But many people just dont wanna deal with that mess.
Even BMW will void the warranty on Dinan's software if something happens. The only difference is Dinan will take care of you themselves. That is what they meant by Dinan is OK.
No, I'm just responding to him saying that it is BS that you can lock the flash count. You shouldn't be able to, just like you shouldn't be able to flash the DME with a tune, but people have unlocked the DME. Just like you shouldn't be able to jailbreak an iPhone to run unauthorized software, but people have jailbroken iPhones. And just like Jailbreaking your iPhone - you're taking a risk.
I've said before I understand the risks involved and that its possible BMW wouldn't cover any damages to the engine, but at the same time - a very mild tune, similar to what you might get with an MPPSK I think would be safe. Considering the first cars from the factory came with a 400whp tune, I would think it should be relatively safe, and I'm pretty sure BMW won't void their warranties, since it came from the factory that way.
Truthfully, any mod to your car resulting in more horsepower is a risk and could theoretically result in BMW refusing to cover any warranty repairs. And if that risk is something you're not willing to accept, then you shouldn't mod the car at all.
I agree with you though, it'd probably be worth the money to go with a Dinan tune where Dinan would cover you if one were available. But one isn't available right now.
Anyway - obviously the aftermarket tune is not for everyone. My original point is that there is an aftermarket tune (and the original factory BMW tune) and 400whp is possible with the latest B58 revision in the M340i and probably Z4/Supra. 400whp sounds pretty awesome
I think we'll have to agree to disagree - the Mission Tuning website specifically calls out locking the flash counter as a feature.
You can cross your fingers and hope for the best but this, if true, seems to be an easy swing and miss for BMW. All of the devices I work on are specifically designed to know when alternate SW is installed and how many times it was done, legit or otherwise. It's not only a SW implementation of such things, it's literally a hardware chip that is external to the main CPU that tracks this stuff. Either way, the car logs data all the time so if you do tune, break something, and go in, they'll still know the car was outside of factory parameters. If the logs are magically deleted then they likely will send you home as well.
No, I'm just responding to him saying that it is BS that you can lock the flash count. You shouldn't be able to, just like you shouldn't be able to flash the DME with a tune, but people have unlocked the DME. Just like you shouldn't be able to jailbreak an iPhone to run unauthorized software, but people have jailbroken iPhones. And just like Jailbreaking your iPhone - you're taking a risk.
I've said before I understand the risks involved and that its possible BMW wouldn't cover any damages to the engine, but at the same time - a very mild tune, similar to what you might get with an MPPSK I think would be safe. Considering the first cars from the factory came with a 400whp tune, I would think it should be relatively safe, and I'm pretty sure BMW won't void their warranties, since it came from the factory that way.
Truthfully, any mod to your car resulting in more horsepower is a risk and could theoretically result in BMW refusing to cover any warranty repairs. And if that risk is something you're not willing to accept, then you shouldn't mod the car at all.
I agree with you though, it'd probably be worth the money to go with a Dinan tune where Dinan would cover you if one were available. But one isn't available right now.
Anyway - obviously the aftermarket tune is not for everyone. My original point is that there is an aftermarket tune (and the original factory BMW tune) and 400whp is possible with the latest B58 revision in the M340i and probably Z4/Supra. 400whp sounds pretty awesome
That is a lot of expensive risks there. (In bold)
But 1 thing for sure tho, just because you can literally private label MPPK to another brand and BMW will void it if they found out it is not BMW's. It does not matter if it is the same or similar tuning. It is not about what whp is safe or unsafe. It is about BMW will not pay for something that is not theirs.
To be honest, even if you bought the MPPK 2nd hand and installed it yourself, BMW will probably void your warranty if something goes wrong.
The difference between jailbreaking a phone and a car is... one is hundreds of maybe 1000 at most.... engine and related labor will cost 10x more and if my phone is broken, i could get another phone within 10 mins if i wanted to vs. you would have to go through a nightmare with the car.
400WHP is very easy for B58... JB4 stage 1 + some basic bolt ons = 400hp. Dinan already has B58 software for quite some time now... it wont take them long to release a updated version for the M340i.
BTW: did you get the laser light or standard Adaptive LED?
Let me know how they compare to our current Adaptive LEDs in low beam of course.
I have heard that while the laser is high beam only which is useless to most of us, but many said the performance of the low beam are much better when the car is equipped with laser..
BTW: did you get the laser light or standard Adaptive LED?
Let me know how they compare to our current Adaptive LEDs in low beam of course.
I have heard that while the laser is high beam only which is useless to most of us, but many said the performance of the low beam are much better when the car is equipped with laser..
I got the Laser Light (I have the Exec package) - the only reason I got the Exec Package / Laser Lights is because the DRLs look really awful with the other 2 levels of lights (M340i I think only gets the Adaptive LED, but 330i I think has 3 options - standard LED, Adaptive, and LasterLight). BMW Marketing smartly made it so the only decent looking DRL is on the Laser Lights. You're right that the Laser part is only used for High beams - so not something I really care about. I haven't heard anything about the LaserLight being better on low beams though - but its possible. My car's ETA to Baltimore is 8/26/2019 - but it might take a week or more for it to get from the port to the dealer.
Dont know if these images will work - but here are the DRLs for the Adaptive LED versus LaserLights -
I think i know what is going to happen but i am still hoping that it wont... BMW, you are really really forcing me to get something else
According to several sources, the 2019 Frankfurt Auto Show just got more exciting. Initially, we believed that only the new X6 will be introduced at the German auto show, but BMW had different plans. The Bavarians will introduce the BMW Concept 4 Series, a model which will preview the production car due to launch in 2020.
It’s not unusual for BMW to use the “concept” approach to introduce high-volume cars. They have done it also with the previous generation 4 Series and the history will repeat itself.
The new concept will likely take many customers by surprise. We’ve also learned through sources and spy photos that it will feature a polarizing design with a show-off front fascia. As you might have guessed, that also includes a larger than usual kidney grille, to properly differentiate itself from its 3 Series brother.
The introduction of this design language will give customers a chance to familiarize with the design approach since future models like the G80 M3 and G82 M4 will have a polarizing front look as well.
From a tech perspective, the new 4 Series will get the same engine options as the 3 Series; so a 430i and M440i in America. It will feature a similar interior design and packed with the latest and greatest infotainment system and driving assistance features.
I've heard the new M3 is going to get the same polarizing vertical kidney grilles that the new 4-series will get.
Here is a rendering of the G80 M3 from Bimmerpost ...
You would think other car manufacturers would have learned from Acura's awful shield grille - although I guess huge grilles haven't really hurt the sales of Lexus vehicles.
I think those are accurate too.... just hope they look better in person.
The grilles on the X7 look scary ugly to me in the pictures. But i actually like X7's exterior when i saw it in person. It looks a lot more upscale than the more conventional looking X5...
But there is a difference between big grilles and long vertical thing that extends all the way to the bottom... Lexus tails and now Lexus front? WTF man...
I have a G20 330i loaner today... the rear is still screaming IS350 to me...
Last edited by oonowindoo; 08-21-2019 at 06:25 PM.
I have a G20 330i loaner today... the rear is still screaming IS350 to me...
Toyota - "We want to bring back the Supra, BMW can we have your engine, chassis, and infotainment system?"
BMW - "Sure, we'll trade you for some of those IS350 taillights ..."
haha yah... my gf was just saying why does your loaner look like a Lexus?
But on the + side, the loaner was 330i base (no M sport), but loaded with options inside (navi, digit dash, lane departure and other stuff). While it is still not E46 or E90. But a big improvement compare to F30. I would say the G20 base drives better than F30 M sport too.
You could really feel the 295 lbs of torque. While it still sounded like a 2 liter 4 banger but you can get to triple digits a lot faster than the F30 330i. I would say according to my my butt dyno, 60-100mph is not much slower than F30 340i.
The voice command worked flawlessly. The lane departure scared me in the beginning because instead of just the vibration, it actually pulls the steering wheel. Kinda dangerous IMO. But by saying "Turn off lane departure" was all that was needed to get rid of that thing and it stayed off. Can't say the same about the Auto/Stop crap... it turns back on by itself.
However, there is a big issue, at least for me. Maybe you can verify it when you get your car. The position of the B pillar blocked a lot of my view when i turn my head to change lane. Maybe it is thicker... not sure but very annoying.
Last edited by oonowindoo; 08-22-2019 at 10:27 PM.
haha yah... my gf was just saying why does your loaner look like a Lexus?
But on the + side, the loaner was 330i base (no M sport), but loaded with options inside (navi, digit dash, lane departure and other stuff). While it is still not E46 or E90. But a big improvement compare to F30. I would say the G20 base drives better than F30 M sport too.
You could really feel the 295 lbs of torque. While it still sounded like a 2 liter 4 banger but you can get to triple digits a lot faster than the F30 330i. I would say according to my my butt dyno, 60-100mph is not much slower than F30 340i.
The voice command worked flawlessly. The lane departure scared me in the beginning because instead of just the vibration, it actually pulls the steering wheel. Kinda dangerous IMO. But by saying "Turn off lane departure" was all that was needed to get rid of that thing and it stayed off. Can't say the same about the Auto/Stop crap... it turns back on by itself.
However, there is a big issue, at least for me. Maybe you can verify it when you get your car. The position of the B pillar blocked a lot of my view when i turn my head to change lane. Maybe it is thicker... not sure but very annoying.
Yeah not being able to turn off ASS is annoying but you can buy Bimmercode for the iPhone or go with the BMW coding system to turn off ASS by default (or your dealer may be willing to code it out). I'll take a look for the B-pillar issue, I've driven the M340i 2 times now on the road - both times I had to merge onto roads, change lanes, etc and I didn't have any issues. I'm short though, so I sit closer to the steering wheel and maybe not an issue for me?
Bimmerpost added some renders of what they think the new G22 4-series will look like - and it has that same polarizing nose ... The tail lights look good though, if BMW really does something like this, it would resolve the "Lexus look" that the G20 3-series tail lights have... More renders available here: https://g20.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1646019
07-24-2019, 12:56 PM
That render does not look good, IMO.
