F23A4

EDIT: Variotronic not, Valvetronic.

ilitig8

You opined "BMW should be able to reach those power levels w i t h o u t forced induction, with the current N-series." a direct quote.

They certainly CAN do it, I doubt anyone will argue that, they obviously decided to set the power output much lower than they could have, specifically not to infringe on the M3. By going with 3.5l and forced induction they add another engine with a completely different character to the range, I don't agree with your P.S. since it will no doubt sell and sell well. It isn't the range topper, if it was I would agree but it is not. As for aftermarket potential I again disagree, it give the Bimmerheads a 3er with cheap easy HP, something lacking for a long time, aftermarket potential does help sell cars to enthusiasts and there are quite a few Bimmer enthusiasts.

As for the E9X, it remains to be seen, much like M3 was a question for a long time since BMW moved to even/odd numbering. A year ago there was 4 chassis designations (for the first time) associated with the new 3er, the E90/91/92/93 one for the sedan, wagon, coupe and cab. Recently more press (read the Autoweek article above) has been using only the E90 designation for all 4, so it seems BMW may have stayed with convention and will only use one chassis designation for the line, at this point it is still conjecture.

As for the Nissan flames if the 306hp VQ3.5TT pops up, it might indeed be flamed BUT don't forget it is a range topper so in that light is is no great shakes and it would NOT distance itself from any current offering! Bottom line Toyota and Nissan are using 3.5s with around 86 hp/l as their range topper, enither specific output is anything to write home about. BMW's range topper will be close to 100hp/l which IS something to mervel at. The N54 is a upper mid-line place holder that has interesting and different appeal, the 3 series line will have 4 distintly different (in output) engine packages which are carefully designed not to tread on each other, Lexus looks like they MAY have three and it appears Nissan may soldier on with one in the category. BMW is doing what the Germans tend to do very well, give lots of choices that fit lots of budgets and desires with very little overlap.

F23A4

Direct quote and my opinion, unapologetically.

....subject vehicle having a 400bhp V8 motor, a minimally detuned (or non-detuned) S54 would have easily sufficed and welcomed. (Opinion, not an affront to contrarian preferences.)

Axiomatic indeed!! Conceivably a fully executed version of said N54 (i.e.: 400hp)could potentially have manifested itself in an M3 version, in opposition to a bicylindrically truncated S85. The denouement established in a realized 67bhp+ advantage for the M3 over it's lesser powered sibling (assuming an S54 in a '332i' model).

Subjective but, noted.

Admittedly, the E92 chassis designation has not been homologated by BMW to date.

Indeed.

F23A4

Closing followup: My underimpressed reception of the N54 motor is not representative of any personal bias against this motor. To the contrary, my expectations of this motor with respect to its attributes fell short of what I'd personally anticipated. As is consistent with my nature, I will reserve final judgment until I experience the final product that is the eventual 335i.

Cheers.

Doom878

I can't understand you guys while half asleep.

Maximized

It's a 3 liter engine, which is smaller than the competition which uses 3.5 liters. The N54 engine produces enough power and has a great torque curve. Torque is what moves the car. Also it seems that the N54 should perform well under the curve, again which is where it counts. Audi had a 2.6 liter TT engine that put out 260 hp a few years back in the A6 and S4. Like I've stated before, performance guys will chip this car and up the boost, which will add nice gains. Another thing that's not been said is how much boost is this engine running?? I'd venture to guess very low given.

ilitig8

You are correct, I have been using the 3.5l displacement because I quite frankly got mired in the possibly Euro 3.0 TT and the US 3.5 N/A. Which just strengthens the arguments, it will be over 100 hp/l and although no specific output king for F/I it will fit the bill for bridging the gap so to speak.

ilitig8

S54 as wonderful as the one sitting in my garage is would fail to meet two likely criteria for the "335". First it would be heavier, given its iron block and would likely cause a domino effect on cost to balance it's weight in the E90 chassis. Second the S54 even with years of previous production would likely cost more and would not advance the development of the new engine family.


M car with a forced induction engine = joke of the day.

Plus the latest "buzz" is that the next M3 engine will not be a simple cylinder chop off the S85 but rather a 4.4 rated at 425hp (based on the E60 M5 engine, not related to the E39 M5).

Other M3 buzz:

SMG/6MT initially DSG later
A sedan version
No cab (due to new 3's use of heavy hardtop)
Maybe a wagon (you can bet this will be Euro only)
CSL (still unlikely for US) lots of CF and possibly no rear seats ala GT3

F23A4

Safe to say that what we have here is a clash of preferences. (read: impasse) I won't belabor this argument any further.

goldmemberer

Kind Sir,

Our brethren on this here symposium might hardly fathom to contrive against ours truly. Please refrain from any further circumcision parallelogram antidisestablishmentarianism.

charliemike

I describe his comments as "verbal masturbation" ...

F23A4

av6ent

DYNO

E90 325i 6MT
Source: http://www.maxbimmer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61585





TIMESLIPS

14.7@94.8mph
Source: http://www.maxbimmer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61585



Pretty damn impressive (underrated power) with more like 235hp/212tq vs. factory listed 215hp/185tq yet with impressive 1320ft results to back it up.

zeroday

14.7 impressive?

ok

av6ent

For 325i, hell yes.

Crazy Bimmer

Know another family sedan rated with 215hp/185tq that can hit 14.7?

Maximized

That slips shows a potential 14.3-14.5 if the driver could get the 60' time down. 2.2 isn't very impressive.

av6ent

Exactly!

av6ent

You and zeroday not getting the whole picture - E90 325i pulled bone stock 14.7 (with only 2.2 60') which means the car is underrated from the factory. In fact, the owner stated it was with shitty tires. Throw some Pilot Sport PS2 or g-Force KDW2 and you'll get easy 2.0' resulting in 14.3


Hell, my g35 sedan has much more power and pulled 14.5 with 2.2

Maximized

Just a thought: The dyno above shows the engine is underrated about 10%. If the N54 is typical BMW, figure 325-330 at the crank.

Maximized

What are you talking about? I think you are confused.

I stated with a good 60', the above car is capable of much more. A 2.2 60' is good for a FWD car, but not a rwd one. You are basically saying the same thing I said.

av6ent

Correct. Of course it's speculation, however I predict 335i turbo going to match E46 M3 crank horsepower - 333 but will blow away with at least 300 crank lbs torque resulting in high 12s bone stock and mid 12s ET with upgraded tires. Dial in couple lbs boost with reflashed ECU + exhaust and you'll get 12 flat.

Maximized

I don't know about that fast, but I do think stock this should be a solid 13s car.

av6ent

Aim better. If E46 M3 with 333hp/262tq typically runs 13.3-13.4, I'm pretty sure upcoming 335i going to show high 12s with speculated 330hp/300+tq thus stronger powerband.

Maximized

In a 3500+ lbs vehicle? Not likely. Try mid 13s on average.

F23A4

I would also expect an N54 powered 3-series to pull mid-13s; 12s are improbable in stock form but very possible with BPU.

But thanks for posting that dyno pic av6ent....very revealing info on the 325i. It definitely reminds me that I shouldnt sleep on them.

Maximized

This might very well be my next car. I want to hear more about the cars numbers, but the 330i we used to have handled and braked very well. It was a pretty compitent on the track as well. Throw the common turbo upgrades to this car and maybe mid 12s are possible.

ilitig8

The E46 M can run 12s with a good driver 12.7 with a great driver stock.

I can see the 335i running low 13s but the weight and typical BMW non-M gearing will probably preclude beating the E46 M3 in a drag race BUT with a reflash that all will change in a heartbeat. A mid 12 BMW E90 3er would be a tasty treat indeed.

goldmemberer

Oh come on now, how much more transparent could the sarcasm be?

But back to the subject -- 335i with N54 will likely not be a 12 second car, even in stick form. I can imagine it in a DSG configuration with launch control but even then, it's kind of a stretch.

Maximized

Most are low 13s cars at best from what I've witnessed first hand. My friend had an 01' 6 speed that ran 13.2, but he is a very good driver whom holds a competition license.

gavriil

Very impressive dyno above. I am guessing that the power at the crank is more closer to 235HP or even a little higher. I mean we saw 205HP at the wheels from 2001 CL Type S cars which now we know make around 249HP at the crank SAE Certified (instead of the 260HP SAE NET)

gavriil

I am predicting that BMW will make sure that the 335i will be JUST slower than the current M3 when out.

ilitig8

Most tracks and drivers are low 13s not the car.


Plenty of sub 13s, but that depends on the track, track prep, tire condition and certainly skill. Like I said there are video runs of 12.7s by a VERY good driver and he was able to duplicate sub 13s in other stock cars. Technique for sub 12s is simple 5k launch with power shifting all the way through, a low altitude well prepped track and 12s are easy. If you don't break 12s with a three pedal M3 it is either the track, driver or tire condition.


As for the 335i being a 12 car with DSG or SMG with launch control, you might be right but BMW will not put a LC on it, or at the least nueter it like on the E46 M3 where in N/A it is limited to 1800 rpm, when the best launchs are above 4500 for this car.

gavriil

2007 BMW 335i Coupe to Have 302-HP Turbo Six - - BY MIKE DUSHANE - - March 2006 - - Source: caranddriver.com

Maximized

BS....That's like the 11 second LS6 or the 12 second LS1. It's not common and everyone brings it up like it is. A few people achieving that in negative DA and great track doesn't make it common. The majority of E46 M3s are low-mid 13s cars. I am a huge BMW fan(dad has a 545i and brother has an M3), but that's misleading.

ilitig8

Can't say I agree. The stock car is capable of high 12s with an excellent driver and a properly prepped track. Now this is near the capability of the car (and not a factory anomoly car), most decent drivers will get a low 13 out of the car. See I never said it was common, I said that the stock car is capable of 12s. The vast majority of runs will be in the 13s, so using that criteria it is a 13 second car, like a lot of C6 Z06 runs will be in the 12s. No street car is ever going to reach its potential a majority of the time in various conditions and with different drivers.

I will agree with you that most 1/4 runs in a three pedal E46 M3 will be in the 13s, but I am curious if you will agree with me that the stock E46 M3 is a potential 12s car given excellent conditions and a great driver.

My view of 1/4 mile numbers is much like numbers from the Nurburgring, the numbers are the fastest by excellent drivers and in perfect conditions. They are near the potential of the car and thus considered the bench mark, what the capabilities of the car are. Jeez put the average club racer in a flat 8m car on the Green Monster and weeks of lapping MIGHT get him near 8:30. To me the potential of a car is more important than the average weekend warrior times, if you prefer to talk about average times for a car I agree the E46 M3 is a 13s car.

Shoofin

http://www.leftlanenews.com/2006/03/...-series-coupe/

Maximized

Well I guess my 05 GT has 11 second potential then because one guy on the east coast with the same mods ran that time leaving off the limiter on slicks.

Fact of the matter is the M3 is a 13 second car. I go to the track a decent amount and witnessed my friend(whom hold a competition license) run 13.2. Yes there have been a few 12 second stock M3's, but that's primarily due to everything being ideal. Perfect D/A, good lauch, and a sticky track. If you put those cars on a dyno, you'd also find they are putting down better than average hp. All engines aren't created equal. Not every M3 will put the same power down to the ground and all do not weigh the same due to options and of course driver weight. To say all stock M3's are potential 12 second cars is not true IMO.

ilitig8

Fact of the matter is your criteria determines if it is a 13s car or a 12s second car, period. The 12.7Xs car dynoed right along with the rest and trap speeds verified it so that argument is flat out wrong, it was NOT a factory anomoly and you will find far fewer factory anomoly cars in the M line than you will find for instance in SRT4s. The 12.7s car WAS indeed a no sunroof car but several fully loaded M3s have run 12s. And yes your 05 GT has 11s potential IF it indeed dynos the same and has the same slicks and the chassis is set up the same, again potential it is up to the conditions and you the driver to exploit it, and my guess is very few times will these stars aline. I also NEVER said all stock E46 M3s have 12s potential, the majority of them do not... you missed a VERY important qualification!!!

ilitig8

Whats up with Lehmann these days? Is it pressure from more an more spy photogs? He keeps selling more and more retouched stuff, when he used to be a staple of accurate spy pics.