Audi: Development and Technology News
01-20-2007 | 07:55 PM
#162
Honda Fanboy
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,288
Likes: 17
From: So Cal
Originally Posted by Maximized
Actually he is correct. Read up on Mitsubishi's SAYC system.
"SAYC (Super Active Yaw Control) is a computerized system that varies the ACD (Active Centre Differential) and provides dynamic amounts of power to each wheel. A natural instinct is to correct oversteer in any car. With the Evo, the computer takes care of it, you can feel the back end stepping out but, the Evo corrects it for you and thanks you for your meagre attempt to throw it out of control. Switch the ACD to the ‘Gravel’ setting and be prepared to be amazed. Drop the back end out on a dirt road and add power, with ease, the SAYC manages to help you out significantly, it’s simply astonishing."
"SAYC (Super Active Yaw Control) is a computerized system that varies the ACD (Active Centre Differential) and provides dynamic amounts of power to each wheel. A natural instinct is to correct oversteer in any car. With the Evo, the computer takes care of it, you can feel the back end stepping out but, the Evo corrects it for you and thanks you for your meagre attempt to throw it out of control. Switch the ACD to the ‘Gravel’ setting and be prepared to be amazed. Drop the back end out on a dirt road and add power, with ease, the SAYC manages to help you out significantly, it’s simply astonishing."
Still waiting to be proven wrong, along with every magazine publication out there.
01-20-2007 | 08:01 PM
#163
Honda Fanboy
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,288
Likes: 17
From: So Cal
"Acura's system is superior to on the market, simply through the fact that it distributes engine torque to a greater amount 70:30 seamlessly and continously compared to the attesa-ets (great in inclement weather and even optimizes for dry weather, by deteremining and distributing grip through Gs, not slip--apparently unheard of). As for the mitsubishi evo's awd with active yaw control, i couldn't find any solid numbers for the yaw control power distribution to the outer wheels. But note that it is not available in the USA to keep prices down on evos. The articles did describe a "10% increase" in the handling prowess of sayc, but that is over the less efficient yaw control (ayc), that didn't rotate the car as efficiently.
Super Active Yaw Control
It's complicated, but together with four-wheel drive, this is the secret of the Evo's amazing powers of handling and roadholding. The Evo's active centre differential, now a multi-plate clutch unit, distributes power 50:50 to the front and rear axles in normal conditions, but varies it according to the grip available at each axle. Active Yaw Control takes this a stage further by controlling the power to the individual wheels on each axle, like a limited slip differential. Electronic sensors and ECUs make this system a whole lot more sophisticated than a simple mechanical limited slip differential, however. The Evo VII's Active Yaw Control has been criticised for not sending enough power to the outer wheels under cornering, thereby failing to exploit the car's greater power and tyres' greater grip. To counter this, Mitsubishi has installed axle differentials that use planetary rather than bevel gears, these allowing a significantly greater portion of power to be sent to the outside wheels. The change improves the Evo's cornering power by as much as 10 percent - hence the 'Super' prefix. The system's operating parameters can also be controlled from a dashboard switch to suit tarmac, gravel or snow conditions. In essence, as the surface becomes more slippery, the car responds less rapidly to steering inputs whose sharpness might otherwise send it into an undesirable skid, the active diff and yaw controls acting to improve its stability and controlability. "
I'm not the only one that says Acura's technology is superior and unique, as in world-first.
Super Active Yaw Control
It's complicated, but together with four-wheel drive, this is the secret of the Evo's amazing powers of handling and roadholding. The Evo's active centre differential, now a multi-plate clutch unit, distributes power 50:50 to the front and rear axles in normal conditions, but varies it according to the grip available at each axle. Active Yaw Control takes this a stage further by controlling the power to the individual wheels on each axle, like a limited slip differential. Electronic sensors and ECUs make this system a whole lot more sophisticated than a simple mechanical limited slip differential, however. The Evo VII's Active Yaw Control has been criticised for not sending enough power to the outer wheels under cornering, thereby failing to exploit the car's greater power and tyres' greater grip. To counter this, Mitsubishi has installed axle differentials that use planetary rather than bevel gears, these allowing a significantly greater portion of power to be sent to the outside wheels. The change improves the Evo's cornering power by as much as 10 percent - hence the 'Super' prefix. The system's operating parameters can also be controlled from a dashboard switch to suit tarmac, gravel or snow conditions. In essence, as the surface becomes more slippery, the car responds less rapidly to steering inputs whose sharpness might otherwise send it into an undesirable skid, the active diff and yaw controls acting to improve its stability and controlability. "
I'm not the only one that says Acura's technology is superior and unique, as in world-first.
01-20-2007 | 10:44 PM
#164
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 4,426
Likes: 0
From: philly
Originally Posted by VTEC Racer
"Acura's system is superior to on the market, simply through the fact that it distributes engine torque to a greater amount 70:30 seamlessly and continously compared to the attesa-ets (great in inclement weather and even optimizes for dry weather, by deteremining and distributing grip through Gs, not slip--apparently unheard of). As for the mitsubishi evo's awd with active yaw control, i couldn't find any solid numbers for the yaw control power distribution to the outer wheels. But note that it is not available in the USA to keep prices down on evos. The articles did describe a "10% increase" in the handling prowess of sayc, but that is over the less efficient yaw control (ayc), that didn't rotate the car as efficiently.
Super Active Yaw Control
It's complicated, but together with four-wheel drive, this is the secret of the Evo's amazing powers of handling and roadholding. The Evo's active centre differential, now a multi-plate clutch unit, distributes power 50:50 to the front and rear axles in normal conditions, but varies it according to the grip available at each axle. Active Yaw Control takes this a stage further by controlling the power to the individual wheels on each axle, like a limited slip differential. Electronic sensors and ECUs make this system a whole lot more sophisticated than a simple mechanical limited slip differential, however. The Evo VII's Active Yaw Control has been criticised for not sending enough power to the outer wheels under cornering, thereby failing to exploit the car's greater power and tyres' greater grip. To counter this, Mitsubishi has installed axle differentials that use planetary rather than bevel gears, these allowing a significantly greater portion of power to be sent to the outside wheels. The change improves the Evo's cornering power by as much as 10 percent - hence the 'Super' prefix. The system's operating parameters can also be controlled from a dashboard switch to suit tarmac, gravel or snow conditions. In essence, as the surface becomes more slippery, the car responds less rapidly to steering inputs whose sharpness might otherwise send it into an undesirable skid, the active diff and yaw controls acting to improve its stability and controlability. "
I'm not the only one that says Acura's technology is superior and unique, as in world-first.
Super Active Yaw Control
It's complicated, but together with four-wheel drive, this is the secret of the Evo's amazing powers of handling and roadholding. The Evo's active centre differential, now a multi-plate clutch unit, distributes power 50:50 to the front and rear axles in normal conditions, but varies it according to the grip available at each axle. Active Yaw Control takes this a stage further by controlling the power to the individual wheels on each axle, like a limited slip differential. Electronic sensors and ECUs make this system a whole lot more sophisticated than a simple mechanical limited slip differential, however. The Evo VII's Active Yaw Control has been criticised for not sending enough power to the outer wheels under cornering, thereby failing to exploit the car's greater power and tyres' greater grip. To counter this, Mitsubishi has installed axle differentials that use planetary rather than bevel gears, these allowing a significantly greater portion of power to be sent to the outside wheels. The change improves the Evo's cornering power by as much as 10 percent - hence the 'Super' prefix. The system's operating parameters can also be controlled from a dashboard switch to suit tarmac, gravel or snow conditions. In essence, as the surface becomes more slippery, the car responds less rapidly to steering inputs whose sharpness might otherwise send it into an undesirable skid, the active diff and yaw controls acting to improve its stability and controlability. "
I'm not the only one that says Acura's technology is superior and unique, as in world-first.
01-20-2007 | 10:47 PM
#165
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 4,426
Likes: 0
From: philly
Originally Posted by VTEC Racer
Sorry, you haven't proved me wrong in anyway. I can type a bunch of stuff and put quotes around it also.
"Acura owns Mitsubishi."
You're proved wrong.
Give me some REAL facts with support, not your middle-school stuff.
Yes, magazines can be wrong, but not when EVERY SINGLE MAGAZINE says that Acura's technology is a world-first.
"Acura owns Mitsubishi."
You're proved wrong.
Give me some REAL facts with support, not your middle-school stuff.
Yes, magazines can be wrong, but not when EVERY SINGLE MAGAZINE says that Acura's technology is a world-first.
01-20-2007 | 10:52 PM
#166
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 4,426
Likes: 0
From: philly
01-20-2007 | 11:01 PM
#167
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 4,426
Likes: 0
From: philly
EvoX : "Via a new S-AWC (Super All-Wheel Control) system that Mitsubishi promises will rival Honda's SH-AWD in sophistication. The new system will feature active steering, active yaw control, and myriad electronic sensors."
Last edited by heyitsme; 01-20-2007 at 11:06 PM.
01-21-2007 | 02:23 PM
#169
Honda Fanboy
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,288
Likes: 17
From: So Cal
Originally Posted by heyitsme
EvoX : "Via a new S-AWC (Super All-Wheel Control) system that Mitsubishi promises will rival Honda's SH-AWD in sophistication. The new system will feature active steering, active yaw control, and myriad electronic sensors."
Anyways, the quote above from you has proven my point. Mitsubishi promises that it will rival Honda's SH-AWD. Yet, Honda copied Mitsubishi? If Mitsubishi is promising to come out with a new S-AWC to rival SH-AWD, how in the world did Honda/Acura copy Mitsubishi to begin with?
Try using your brain more often instead of those choice words you quickly called upon.
01-21-2007 | 09:57 PM
#171
Suzuka Master
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,579
Likes: 0
From: Chicago Suburbs
Originally Posted by VTEC Racer
"Acura's system is superior to on the market, simply through the fact that it distributes engine torque to a greater amount 70:30 seamlessly and continously compared to the attesa-ets (great in inclement weather and even optimizes for dry weather, by deteremining and distributing grip through Gs, not slip--apparently unheard of). As for the mitsubishi evo's awd with active yaw control, i couldn't find any solid numbers for the yaw control power distribution to the outer wheels. But note that it is not available in the USA to keep prices down on evos. The articles did describe a "10% increase" in the handling prowess of sayc, but that is over the less efficient yaw control (ayc), that didn't rotate the car as efficiently.
Super Active Yaw Control
It's complicated, but together with four-wheel drive, this is the secret of the Evo's amazing powers of handling and roadholding. The Evo's active centre differential, now a multi-plate clutch unit, distributes power 50:50 to the front and rear axles in normal conditions, but varies it according to the grip available at each axle. Active Yaw Control takes this a stage further by controlling the power to the individual wheels on each axle, like a limited slip differential. Electronic sensors and ECUs make this system a whole lot more sophisticated than a simple mechanical limited slip differential, however. The Evo VII's Active Yaw Control has been criticised for not sending enough power to the outer wheels under cornering, thereby failing to exploit the car's greater power and tyres' greater grip. To counter this, Mitsubishi has installed axle differentials that use planetary rather than bevel gears, these allowing a significantly greater portion of power to be sent to the outside wheels. The change improves the Evo's cornering power by as much as 10 percent - hence the 'Super' prefix. The system's operating parameters can also be controlled from a dashboard switch to suit tarmac, gravel or snow conditions. In essence, as the surface becomes more slippery, the car responds less rapidly to steering inputs whose sharpness might otherwise send it into an undesirable skid, the active diff and yaw controls acting to improve its stability and controlability. "
I'm not the only one that says Acura's technology is superior and unique, as in world-first.
Super Active Yaw Control
It's complicated, but together with four-wheel drive, this is the secret of the Evo's amazing powers of handling and roadholding. The Evo's active centre differential, now a multi-plate clutch unit, distributes power 50:50 to the front and rear axles in normal conditions, but varies it according to the grip available at each axle. Active Yaw Control takes this a stage further by controlling the power to the individual wheels on each axle, like a limited slip differential. Electronic sensors and ECUs make this system a whole lot more sophisticated than a simple mechanical limited slip differential, however. The Evo VII's Active Yaw Control has been criticised for not sending enough power to the outer wheels under cornering, thereby failing to exploit the car's greater power and tyres' greater grip. To counter this, Mitsubishi has installed axle differentials that use planetary rather than bevel gears, these allowing a significantly greater portion of power to be sent to the outside wheels. The change improves the Evo's cornering power by as much as 10 percent - hence the 'Super' prefix. The system's operating parameters can also be controlled from a dashboard switch to suit tarmac, gravel or snow conditions. In essence, as the surface becomes more slippery, the car responds less rapidly to steering inputs whose sharpness might otherwise send it into an undesirable skid, the active diff and yaw controls acting to improve its stability and controlability. "
I'm not the only one that says Acura's technology is superior and unique, as in world-first.
01-21-2007 | 10:31 PM
#172
Honda Fanboy
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,288
Likes: 17
From: So Cal
Originally Posted by Maximized
How is it superior? Because you read it in a magazine? It might be more sophisticated in terms of "technology", but when you break it down they both do the exact same thing. Mitsubishi's system is proven on the track and rallying. Where has Acura's systems proven itself? In terms of proven performance, the Mitsubishi system is hands down the winner.
Actually, they don't both do the same thing. Mitsubishi's technology is reactive compared to Acura's passive system. The Mitsubishi system has to detect slip before any power is transferred. Acura's system measures g-forces, steering angle and yaw to transfer power BEFORE the car starts to slip. But hey, like 'heyitsme' pointed out a few posts above, Mitsubishi is currently in the process of delivering a system to rival SH-AWD, meaning the current one doesn't match SH-AWD.
01-21-2007 | 10:39 PM
#173
Suzuka Master
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,579
Likes: 0
From: Chicago Suburbs
Originally Posted by VTEC Racer
Actually, they don't both do the same thing. Mitsubishi's technology is reactive compared to Acura's passive system. The Mitsubishi system has to detect slip before any power is transferred. Acura's system measures g-forces, steering angle and yaw to transfer power BEFORE the car starts to slip. But hey, like 'heyitsme' pointed out a few posts above, Mitsubishi is currently in the process of delivering a system to rival SH-AWD, meaning the current one doesn't match SH-AWD.
01-22-2007 | 01:21 AM
#174
Honda Fanboy
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,288
Likes: 17
From: So Cal
Originally Posted by Maximized
You proved my point, they do EXACTLY the same thing.
LOLOLOL If you took that as being the exact same thing, then hey, I have a Kia Sonata I want to sell you. It is EXACTLY like a BMW 750iL.
They do the same exact thing but Mitsubishi wants to come out with a system to rival SH-AWD which has already been out. That makes a lot of sense. Can you tell me what you get when you add 1+2? I get 3. I have a feeling you don't though.
01-22-2007 | 10:53 AM
#175
Suzuka Master
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,579
Likes: 0
From: Chicago Suburbs
Originally Posted by VTEC Racer
LOLOLOL If you took that as being the exact same thing, then hey, I have a Kia Sonata I want to sell you. It is EXACTLY like a BMW 750iL.
They do the same exact thing but Mitsubishi wants to come out with a system to rival SH-AWD which has already been out. That makes a lot of sense. Can you tell me what you get when you add 1+2? I get 3. I have a feeling you don't though.
They do the same exact thing but Mitsubishi wants to come out with a system to rival SH-AWD which has already been out. That makes a lot of sense. Can you tell me what you get when you add 1+2? I get 3. I have a feeling you don't though.
You aren't getting it. Both systems do the exact same thing, but achieve the final results in a different manner. Honda's system is the next generation that produces quicker results based on readings from more sensors. If you knew how either system worked from a mechanical standpoint, you would easily understand that the final result is the same. There is no use arguing with you because it's apparent that you are a Honda fanboy and really have little clue what you are talking about. Keep posting magazine articles; it's amusing. Heyitsme was 100% in his character analysis.
01-22-2007 | 12:07 PM
#176
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,622
Likes: 2
From: Lexington
Originally Posted by phile
I think the people who are saying Mitsu had the system first are ignoring that Honda had the active torque transfer system in place in the Prelude as early as 1997.
The RL was an adaptation of this technology and the FIRST of it's kind in the world to be proactive and redistribute torque at the rear axle BEFORE any kind of slip was detected. It IS a SUPERIOR technology to Mitsubishi's Super Active Yaw Control because which is not proactive, but is reactive. The fact that Acura's SH-AWD system is superior to Mitsubishi's torque vectoring AWD (or for that matter, any other AWD system in a road car) is demonstrated by the fact that Mitsu plans to incoporate a new "Super Al-Wheel Control" system to RIVAL Acura's SH-AWD.
No point developing a technology to rival a competitor's in term's of sophistication, effectiveness, and execution if you already have the technology. Mitsubishi doesn't have that technology as of now.
01-22-2007 | 12:17 PM
#177
Suzuka Master
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,579
Likes: 0
From: Chicago Suburbs
The GTR also has a "torque vectoring" system. Acura's sytem is somewhat proactive. You cannot of course overcome the laws of physics and the system cannot directly monitor the road. I am sure in the future, there will be a system that will be able to tell what conditions are present on the road.
The problem with Acura is that they don't have a performance car to put this system into. It would go a long way to actually prove the system on a race track. That's how Audi built the Quattro brand.
The problem with Acura is that they don't have a performance car to put this system into. It would go a long way to actually prove the system on a race track. That's how Audi built the Quattro brand.
01-22-2007 | 12:47 PM
#178
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,622
Likes: 2
From: Lexington
Originally Posted by Maximized
The GTR also has a "torque vectoring" system. Acura's sytem is somewhat proactive. You cannot of course overcome the laws of physics and the system cannot directly monitor the road. I am sure in the future, there will be a system that will be able to tell what conditions are present on the road.
The problem with Acura is that they don't have a performance car to put this system into. It would go a long way to actually prove the system on a race track. That's how Audi built the Quattro brand.
The problem with Acura is that they don't have a performance car to put this system into. It would go a long way to actually prove the system on a race track. That's how Audi built the Quattro brand.
I do agree with Acura needing to implement this system on a more performance oriented car - but now its more of a question of when rather than if; the NSX replacement will have a rear biased version of the SH-AWD system. I imagine that at the very least, a performance version of the next generation TL, ala Type-S or some such, will also put this system to better use. My only concern is weight - Acura says the system is lightweight when compared to convential AWD systems, but I'd still venture that i adds at least 200lbs to the weight of a given vehicle. I'm not sure that the extra performance in a performance oriented vehicle such as the NSX offsets the weight disadvantage, but time will tell.
01-22-2007 | 01:00 PM
#179
Suzuka Master
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,579
Likes: 0
From: Chicago Suburbs
Originally Posted by vishnus11
The Gt-R isn't out yet so for now Acura's system is still the benchmark and is technologically superior to Mitsubishi's current system.
I do agree with Acura needing to implement this system on a more performance oriented car - but now its more of a question of when rather than if; the NSX replacement will have a rear biased version of the SH-AWD system. I imagine that at the very least, a performance version of the next generation TL, ala Type-S or some such, will also put this system to better use. My only concern is weight - Acura says the system is lightweight when compared to convential AWD systems, but I'd still venture that i adds at least 200lbs to the weight of a given vehicle. I'm not sure that the extra performance in a performance oriented vehicle such as the NSX offsets the weight disadvantage, but time will tell.
I do agree with Acura needing to implement this system on a more performance oriented car - but now its more of a question of when rather than if; the NSX replacement will have a rear biased version of the SH-AWD system. I imagine that at the very least, a performance version of the next generation TL, ala Type-S or some such, will also put this system to better use. My only concern is weight - Acura says the system is lightweight when compared to convential AWD systems, but I'd still venture that i adds at least 200lbs to the weight of a given vehicle. I'm not sure that the extra performance in a performance oriented vehicle such as the NSX offsets the weight disadvantage, but time will tell.
I would question that Acura's system is the benchmark. Again, it looks good on paper, but it's not proven. Audi might be late to the party, but I suspect that they will effectively demonstrate to the consumer that this is race proven technology. The way that Acura has been dragging their feet on the NSX, Audi will have the next gen S/RS series cars using this technology.
01-22-2007 | 01:39 PM
#180
Pro
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 719
Likes: 45
Originally Posted by Maximized
The Skyline GT-R....AKA R34.
I would question that Acura's system is the benchmark. Again, it looks good on paper, but it's not proven. Audi might be late to the party, but I suspect that they will effectively demonstrate to the consumer that this is race proven technology. The way that Acura has been dragging their feet on the NSX, Audi will have the next gen S/RS series cars using this technology.
I would question that Acura's system is the benchmark. Again, it looks good on paper, but it's not proven. Audi might be late to the party, but I suspect that they will effectively demonstrate to the consumer that this is race proven technology. The way that Acura has been dragging their feet on the NSX, Audi will have the next gen S/RS series cars using this technology.
01-22-2007 | 02:09 PM
#181
Honda Fanboy
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,288
Likes: 17
From: So Cal
Originally Posted by Maximized
LOLOLOL You aren't getting it. Both systems do the exact same thing, but achieve the final results in a different manner. Honda's system is the next generation that produces quicker results based on readings from more sensors. If you knew how either system worked from a mechanical standpoint, you would easily understand that the final result is the same. There is no use arguing with you because it's apparent that you are a Honda fanboy and really have little clue what you are talking about. Keep posting magazine articles; it's amusing. Heyitsme was 100% in his character analysis.
You aren't getting it. Both systems do the exact same thing, but achieve the final results in a different manner. Honda's system is the next generation that produces quicker results based on readings from more sensors. If you knew how either system worked from a mechanical standpoint, you would easily understand that the final result is the same. There is no use arguing with you because it's apparent that you are a Honda fanboy and really have little clue what you are talking about. Keep posting magazine articles; it's amusing. Heyitsme was 100% in his character analysis.Lets say for arguements sake that Mitsubishi is not developing a system to rival SH-AWD and what they have right now is already just as good, hey, even better than SH-AWD!! Because as we all know, Mitsubishi has always been leading the technological automotive industry.
Anyways... The whole reason for the start of this bickering was when someone said that Acura copied Mitsubishi. Unless Mitsubishi had this technology before 1996, Honda/Acura was the first company to develop this system with the 1997 Honda Prelude. I thought you would get that fact from the ten other people who mentioned it but I guess not.Just because I'm defending Honda with facts and information in the same exact manner as you are, that makes me a Honda Fan boy? Incase you didn't notice, this is an Acura forum. Doesn't say much about you having 4k+ posts here. Obviously someone is more commited than I am. Trying to communicate with you is like trying to bring peace to Iraq, it's just not gonna work.
01-22-2007 | 02:51 PM
#182
Suzuka Master
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,579
Likes: 0
From: Chicago Suburbs
Originally Posted by VTEC Racer
Trust me, Bub, I know exactly how the SH-AWD system and Mitsibishi's system works. If you want me to get down to the mechanical aspect, then fine. However, judging from what I have seen from you so far, you would have been lost at the words planetary gears.
Lets say for arguements sake that Mitsubishi is not developing a system to rival SH-AWD and what they have right now is already just as good, hey, even better than SH-AWD!! Because as we all know, Mitsubishi has always been leading the technological automotive industry. Anyways... The whole reason for the start of this bickering was when someone said that Acura copied Mitsubishi. Unless Mitsubishi had this technology before 1996, Honda/Acura was the first company to develop this system with the 1997 Honda Prelude. I thought you would get that fact from the ten other people who mentioned it but I guess not.
Just because I'm defending Honda with facts and information in the same exact manner as you are, that makes me a Honda Fan boy? Incase you didn't notice, this is an Acura forum. Doesn't say much about you having 4k+ posts here. Obviously someone is more commited than I am. Trying to communicate with you is like trying to bring peace to Iraq, it's just not gonna work.
Lets say for arguements sake that Mitsubishi is not developing a system to rival SH-AWD and what they have right now is already just as good, hey, even better than SH-AWD!! Because as we all know, Mitsubishi has always been leading the technological automotive industry.
Anyways... The whole reason for the start of this bickering was when someone said that Acura copied Mitsubishi. Unless Mitsubishi had this technology before 1996, Honda/Acura was the first company to develop this system with the 1997 Honda Prelude. I thought you would get that fact from the ten other people who mentioned it but I guess not.Just because I'm defending Honda with facts and information in the same exact manner as you are, that makes me a Honda Fan boy? Incase you didn't notice, this is an Acura forum. Doesn't say much about you having 4k+ posts here. Obviously someone is more commited than I am. Trying to communicate with you is like trying to bring peace to Iraq, it's just not gonna work.
01-22-2007 | 03:01 PM
#183
Honda Fanboy
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,288
Likes: 17
From: So Cal
Originally Posted by Maximized
More useless babbling on your part. I understand the history. The fact of the matter is that you don't understand how these systems affect vehicle dyamics(which means you truely don't understand the mechanics behind the system), which again is the end result of both systems. I am sure I will get some paragraphs with plenty of quotes in them trying to make yourself look like the expert.
We are not talking about how these systems affect the vehicles. This whole debate began when whoever said that Honda copied Mitsubishi. It has already been clearly proven that was not the case. Any more comments off that subject would be considered 'useless babbling.'
01-22-2007 | 03:22 PM
#184
Senior Moderator
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 17,905
Likes: 1,675
At this point in the game (automobile technology), the argument it moot. There always has been 'emulating' between carmakers from day one and that is not necessarily a bad thing (and many times it is a great thing).
01-22-2007 | 04:10 PM
#185
6G TLX-S
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,202
Likes: 1,162
From: YVR
It is quite facinating to see that long-time AWD car makers such as Audi and Mitsubishi are scrambling to play catch-up to a new-comer AWD maker (Acura) which debuts the SH-AWD system. Subaru's AWD history rivals that of Audi's. I wonder what Subaru plans to do to join in the fight.
01-22-2007 | 04:52 PM
#186
Suzuka Master
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,579
Likes: 0
From: Chicago Suburbs
Originally Posted by Edward'TLS
It is quite facinating to see that long-time AWD car makers such as Audi and Mitsubishi are scrambling to play catch-up to a new-comer AWD maker (Acura) which debuts the SH-AWD system. Subaru's AWD history rivals that of Audi's. I wonder what Subaru plans to do to join in the fight.
01-23-2007 | 06:16 AM
#187
Senior Moderator
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 17,905
Likes: 1,675
Originally Posted by Edward'TLS
It is quite facinating to see that long-time AWD car makers such as Audi and Mitsubishi are scrambling to play catch-up to a new-comer AWD maker (Acura) which debuts the SH-AWD system. Subaru's AWD history rivals that of Audi's. I wonder what Subaru plans to do to join in the fight.
That said Audi & Subaru are brands clearly established as the pinnacle in AWD brands. Even if Acura put SH-AWD in the TL & TSX tomorrow (completing SH-AWD in all of their offerings), the jury is out on whether or not they would lure Audi and Subaru buyers to Acura.
That said, as Audi looks ahead and focuses on BMW & Lexus they had better look behind and watchout for Acura & Infiniti.
01-23-2007 | 08:26 AM
#188
Senior Moderator
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 47,710
Likes: 801
From: Toronto, Canada
Um, Audi doesn't sell anything close to what Acura does in the US so I'm not sure why they should be looking over their shoulders. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Granted they have great cars and I'm not disputing their technology and AWD system but 90,116 sales compared to Acura's 201,223 isn't exactly close.
01-23-2007 | 08:52 AM
#189
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 14,391
Likes: 634
From: Alexandria, VA
Originally Posted by dom
Um, Audi doesn't sell anything close to what Acura does in the US so I'm not sure why they should be looking over their shoulders. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Granted they have great cars and I'm not disputing their technology and AWD system but 90,116 sales compared to Acura's 201,223 isn't exactly close.
Like I said before - Acura, the more reliable Audi.
01-23-2007 | 08:52 AM
#190
Senior Moderator
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 17,905
Likes: 1,675
Originally Posted by dom
Um, Audi doesn't sell anything close to what Acura does in the US so I'm not sure why they should be looking over their shoulders. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Granted they have great cars and I'm not disputing their technology and AWD system but 90,116 sales compared to Acura's 201,223 isn't exactly close.
01-23-2007 | 08:56 AM
#191
Senior Moderator
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 47,710
Likes: 801
From: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted by F23A4
I was referring to brand recognition within the "near luxury" segment not sales figures.
01-23-2007 | 09:16 AM
#192
Senior Moderator
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 17,905
Likes: 1,675
Originally Posted by dom
I hear ya. But brand recongnition isn't exactly killing Acura. Sure it could be better, but I don't think its the huge problem this board makes it out to be.
01-23-2007 | 05:24 PM
#194
6G TLX-S
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,202
Likes: 1,162
From: YVR
Originally Posted by F23A4
Rather than Brand Recognition, I believe I should have used the term 'Brand Image.'
01-23-2007 | 06:11 PM
#195
Suzuka Master
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,579
Likes: 0
From: Chicago Suburbs
Originally Posted by Edward'TLS
Brand recognition / brand image sure kills the RL sales. Similarly, it kills the Passat W8 and Phaeton sales in VW. But it's hard to compare the Audi and Acura brands because Audi is a recogized luxury brand selling expensive cars, while Acura is a not-quite-recoginized luxury brand which stops short at moving cars even at the RL price range.
05-07-2007 | 05:54 PM
#196
6G TLX-S
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,202
Likes: 1,162
From: YVR
Audi Seeks to Define Brand in U.S. - Wall Street Journal
By GINA CHON
May 7, 2007 3:34 p.m.
With a fleet of new models, Volkswagen AG's Audi brand has ambitious plans to accelerate out of the shadows of its luxury competitors. But first, it needs to explain to U.S. consumers just what an Audi is.
Audi is aiming to do just that with a new advertising campaign that kicked off Monday. The "Never Follow" tagline is gone, replaced with "Truth in Engineering," which is aimed at showing that Audis are what vehicles should be all about. The ads show how engineering results in a better driving experience when it comes to safety, quality and performance.
. . .
By GINA CHON
May 7, 2007 3:34 p.m.
With a fleet of new models, Volkswagen AG's Audi brand has ambitious plans to accelerate out of the shadows of its luxury competitors. But first, it needs to explain to U.S. consumers just what an Audi is.
Audi is aiming to do just that with a new advertising campaign that kicked off Monday. The "Never Follow" tagline is gone, replaced with "Truth in Engineering," which is aimed at showing that Audis are what vehicles should be all about. The ads show how engineering results in a better driving experience when it comes to safety, quality and performance.
. . .
03-21-2008 | 07:16 PM
#197
Senior Moderator
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 167,734
Likes: 23,026
Audi: S tronic - Direct Shift Gearbox for Longitudinal Applications
From here: http://www.fourtitude.com/news/publi...cle_3842.shtml
• News high-tech transmission with twin-clutch technology
• Shifts at lightning speed with high efficiency
• Suitable for longitudinal installation and quattro drive
Seven gears that shift at lightning speed without interrupting traction – Audi presents a new phase in the evolution of transmission systems. The seven-speed S tronic combines its dynamic working method with high efficiency. The new twin-clutch transmission is designed to work with longitudinally installed engines and the quattro all-wheel drive system, and its 550 Nm torque capacity makes it suitable for a wide range of sporty models. Audi will introduce the new S tronic into multiple model lines in series production during the course of this year.
With the seven-speed S tronic, Audi is launching a new phase in its drive strategy. The new transmission, which was developed entirely by Audi, is intended for the mid-range model lines. Audi has designed it to be sporty while also being a highly efficient high-tech component.
Audi drivers can use the new seven-speed S tronic in various modes. The fully automatic mode, in which the computer selects the gear, keeps the D (Drive) and S (Sport) programs available. The gears can also be manually switched with the shift selector lever or with the optional rocker switch on the steering wheel – an amazingly fast process.
The new high-tech transmission from Audi gives the driver a dynamic and comfortable sense of shifting with unsurpassed precision and perfection. It combines outstanding economy with superb agility and potential for sporty driving.
The seven-speed S tronic is composed of two transmission structures. It integrates two multidisk clutches that control different gears. The large K1 clutch located on the outside conducts the torque via a solid shaft to the gear wheels for the odd gears 1, 3, 5 and 7. They are located in the rear of the cast-aluminum transmission housing, toward the center of the vehicle.
A hollow shaft rotates around the solid shaft. It is connected to the smaller K2 clutch, which is integrated into the inside of its larger sibling, and which controls the gear wheels for the even gears 2, 4 and 6, as well as reverse gear. All gear wheels are located in a single row on both drive shafts, in the order 4, 6, 2, R, 1, 3, 7 and 5.
Both transmission structures are continuously active, but only one is powered at a time by the engine. For example, when the driver accelerates in third gear, the fourth gear is already engaged in the second transmission structure – lying in wait, so to speak. The switching process takes place as the clutch shifts – while K1 is opening, K2 closes at lightning speed. This process takes only a few hundredths of a second and is completed without interrupting traction. It is so comfortable and smooth that the driver hardly notices it.
The power flows from the drive shaft to the self-locking center differential of the quattro drivetrain, which distributes it into two directions. In the basic distribution, 60 percent of the torque flows over the cardan shaft to the differential for the rear axle, and 40 percent flows over a side shaft to the bevel gear of the front-axle differential. Because this shaft is installed at a 7.2 degree angle, it uses a slanted, beveloid gear. To reduce weight, it is also hollow.
The asymmetric-dynamic power distribution provides sporty and agile driving characteristics with slight emphasis on the rear end. When needed, the center differential can deliver up to 85 percent of the power to the rear axle or a maximum of 65 percent of the power to the front axle.
Typical Audi: uncompromising quality
Each component of the new seven-gear S tronic attests to Audi’s innovative way of thinking and to the company’s uncompromising quality standards. Carbon-coated synchronizer rings ensure synchronization of unsurpassed quality and stability. The gears one through three and reverse are also designed as three-cone synchronizations.
Highly precise management of both multidisk clutches was one of the most important development goals. This was achieved in part with a compact pressure cylinder, electronically controlled rotation speed compensation and the use of an optimized coil spring package. This package of technology provides maximum precision and comfort at startup and shifting.
The transmission is managed by the so-called mechatronic module. This module involves a compact group of control units and hydraulic control valves that is integrated on the left of the transmission when facing the direction of travel. Its control concept allows the speed of the gear shifting process to vary and extremely precise control of the power necessary for the process.
The required control pressure is provided by an efficiently operating oil pump that is located next to the mechatronic module and is driven by a gear section. The oil pump is supported by a vacuum booster for cooling the twin clutch during starting. This allows the amount of oil pumped to be roughly doubled as needed without increasing power.
A unique feature of the seven-speed S tronic is its two separate oil systems. While the twin clutch, mechatronic module and oil pump are supplied by their own oil circuit with seven liters of automatic transmission fluid (ATF) oil, the wheelsets and the central and front-axle differential are lubricated with about 4.5 liters of hypoid gear oil. This separation allowed the development engineers to position all of the components ideally, without being forced to compromise by using a single lubricant.
Audi has designed the new seven-gear S tronic to provide both exhilarating driving and consistent economy. The new high-tech engine is notable for its very high efficiency. Its highly intelligent controls also allow economical driving in automatic mode. The maximum possible transmission-ratio spread of 8.0:1 allows a sporty, short transmission ratio for the first gear as well as an rpm-sinking, long ratio for the last gear. The seven-speed S tronic is designed for up to 9,000 rpm and can transmit torque of up to 55 Nm.
Vorsprung durch Technik: the history of S tronic
Audi has led the march in the field of transmissions for many years. The introduction of quattro all-wheel drive in 1980 was a milestone in the history of automotive technology. And the S tronic is a prime example of the company's basic philosophy –
“Vorsprung durch Technik.”
The first Audi with a twin-clutch transmission was produced way back in November 1985 – the Sport quattro S1, which was driven by Walter Röhrl and his copilot Christian Geistdörfer in the World Rally Championships. Röhrl, the finest rally pilot of his time, described his 350 kW (476 hp) sports car as “a formidable thing” and a “natural phenomenon” – and the high-tech transmission provided him with even more powerful performance.
The twin-clutch transmission, which was controlled electrically with a short touch control lever in the S1, could shift through its five gears at lightning speed. Because the traction was not interrupted, the turbocharger for the five-cylinder engine remained constantly pressurized – a bypass in the engine’s airways supported this effect. A twin-clutch transmission was also on board the S1 during training for Röhrl’s victorious storming of the peaks during the 1987 Pikes Peak mountain race in Colorado.
The S tronic is one of the most versatile solutions in Audi's range of transmissions. In the spring of 2003, Audi introduced the technology in series production in the TT Coupe and Roadster, combined with the high-torque 3.2-liter V6 with 184 kW (250 hp). The ultra-compact twin-clutch transmission, designed for transverse installation with six gears, was the perfect complement to the powerful engine. TT pilots could use it in automatic mode or shift the gears by hand, either with the short shift selector lever or with rocker switches affixed behind the steering wheel.
In the past five years, the new technology in the TT and A3 has become firmly established – as dynamic high-tech alternatives to hand-shifting as well as being fully imbued with the positive attributes of a conventional geared automatic transmission. Due to its wide range of strengths, the S tronic is also available in the A3 with a TDI four-cylinder engine. By the end of 2007, Audi had produced 188,338 cars in both model lines with twin-clutch transmissions.
A wide-ranging program: the ideal solution for every need
Today, Audi has a wide-ranging portfolio of transmission technology options – five technologies with widely varying characteristics may now be selected to perfectly fulfill their specific range of applications. Aside from the sporty S tronic with six – and now seven – gears, Audi offers a classic manual transmission, an automatic R tronic, the comfortable tiptronic torque-converter transmission, and the versatile, continuously variable multitronic – at least two customized solutions are available for each model range. The common denominators among all of these transmissions are compact and light construction, high efficiency, precise functioning in extremely durable quality, and convenient and simple operation.
Manual shift transmissions are available in many of the model ranges, from the compact A3 to the A6, along with the TT, the Q7 and the R8; they are suitable for combination with front-wheel and quattro drives. In the A4 and A5 model lines, Audi has introduced a new generation of transmissions that are notable due to modified positioning of the differential and for their greatly reduced internal friction, which further improves efficiency. Most manual transmissions operate with six gears. In the A3 1.9 TDI e and A3 Sportback 1.9 TDI e, five-gear transmissions are used in which the upper gears feature a somewhat longer gear ratio – which helps sink consumption on average to an exemplary 4.5 liters of diesel per 100 km (52.27 mpg).
The sequential-shift R tronic with six gears is reserved exclusively for the R8; as befits the character of a supercar, the engineers have designed it to be especially dynamic. In the R tronic, hydraulic units manage activation of the gears and clutch, and the driver’s commands are transmitted electronically.
The tiptronic transmissions from Audi are found in all sedan model lines, from the A3 to the A8, as well as in the high-performance Q7 SUV, in combination with front-wheel or quattro drive. The great strength of this classic torque-converter transmission is in its highly convenient shifting. In order to improve this even further while also improving efficiency, in the latest configuration, engineers have modified the damping system in the torque converter. In addition, gear shifting is completed more swiftly.
The redesigned multitronic also features even greater efficiency and dynamics. The continuously variable transmission from Audi combines the advantages of manual gear shifting with the strengths of an automatic. As an especially comfortable driveline, the multitronic available in the A4, A5, A6 and A8 is paired with front-wheel drive. The new seven-gear S tronic developed by Audi, which will be introduced in series production in multiple models during the course of this year, is combined with quattro technology – Audi has designed it as a sporty and highly efficient high-tech transmission.
• Shifts at lightning speed with high efficiency
• Suitable for longitudinal installation and quattro drive
Seven gears that shift at lightning speed without interrupting traction – Audi presents a new phase in the evolution of transmission systems. The seven-speed S tronic combines its dynamic working method with high efficiency. The new twin-clutch transmission is designed to work with longitudinally installed engines and the quattro all-wheel drive system, and its 550 Nm torque capacity makes it suitable for a wide range of sporty models. Audi will introduce the new S tronic into multiple model lines in series production during the course of this year.
With the seven-speed S tronic, Audi is launching a new phase in its drive strategy. The new transmission, which was developed entirely by Audi, is intended for the mid-range model lines. Audi has designed it to be sporty while also being a highly efficient high-tech component.
Audi drivers can use the new seven-speed S tronic in various modes. The fully automatic mode, in which the computer selects the gear, keeps the D (Drive) and S (Sport) programs available. The gears can also be manually switched with the shift selector lever or with the optional rocker switch on the steering wheel – an amazingly fast process.
The new high-tech transmission from Audi gives the driver a dynamic and comfortable sense of shifting with unsurpassed precision and perfection. It combines outstanding economy with superb agility and potential for sporty driving.
The seven-speed S tronic is composed of two transmission structures. It integrates two multidisk clutches that control different gears. The large K1 clutch located on the outside conducts the torque via a solid shaft to the gear wheels for the odd gears 1, 3, 5 and 7. They are located in the rear of the cast-aluminum transmission housing, toward the center of the vehicle.
A hollow shaft rotates around the solid shaft. It is connected to the smaller K2 clutch, which is integrated into the inside of its larger sibling, and which controls the gear wheels for the even gears 2, 4 and 6, as well as reverse gear. All gear wheels are located in a single row on both drive shafts, in the order 4, 6, 2, R, 1, 3, 7 and 5.
Both transmission structures are continuously active, but only one is powered at a time by the engine. For example, when the driver accelerates in third gear, the fourth gear is already engaged in the second transmission structure – lying in wait, so to speak. The switching process takes place as the clutch shifts – while K1 is opening, K2 closes at lightning speed. This process takes only a few hundredths of a second and is completed without interrupting traction. It is so comfortable and smooth that the driver hardly notices it.
The power flows from the drive shaft to the self-locking center differential of the quattro drivetrain, which distributes it into two directions. In the basic distribution, 60 percent of the torque flows over the cardan shaft to the differential for the rear axle, and 40 percent flows over a side shaft to the bevel gear of the front-axle differential. Because this shaft is installed at a 7.2 degree angle, it uses a slanted, beveloid gear. To reduce weight, it is also hollow.
The asymmetric-dynamic power distribution provides sporty and agile driving characteristics with slight emphasis on the rear end. When needed, the center differential can deliver up to 85 percent of the power to the rear axle or a maximum of 65 percent of the power to the front axle.
Typical Audi: uncompromising quality
Each component of the new seven-gear S tronic attests to Audi’s innovative way of thinking and to the company’s uncompromising quality standards. Carbon-coated synchronizer rings ensure synchronization of unsurpassed quality and stability. The gears one through three and reverse are also designed as three-cone synchronizations.
Highly precise management of both multidisk clutches was one of the most important development goals. This was achieved in part with a compact pressure cylinder, electronically controlled rotation speed compensation and the use of an optimized coil spring package. This package of technology provides maximum precision and comfort at startup and shifting.
The transmission is managed by the so-called mechatronic module. This module involves a compact group of control units and hydraulic control valves that is integrated on the left of the transmission when facing the direction of travel. Its control concept allows the speed of the gear shifting process to vary and extremely precise control of the power necessary for the process.
The required control pressure is provided by an efficiently operating oil pump that is located next to the mechatronic module and is driven by a gear section. The oil pump is supported by a vacuum booster for cooling the twin clutch during starting. This allows the amount of oil pumped to be roughly doubled as needed without increasing power.
A unique feature of the seven-speed S tronic is its two separate oil systems. While the twin clutch, mechatronic module and oil pump are supplied by their own oil circuit with seven liters of automatic transmission fluid (ATF) oil, the wheelsets and the central and front-axle differential are lubricated with about 4.5 liters of hypoid gear oil. This separation allowed the development engineers to position all of the components ideally, without being forced to compromise by using a single lubricant.
Audi has designed the new seven-gear S tronic to provide both exhilarating driving and consistent economy. The new high-tech engine is notable for its very high efficiency. Its highly intelligent controls also allow economical driving in automatic mode. The maximum possible transmission-ratio spread of 8.0:1 allows a sporty, short transmission ratio for the first gear as well as an rpm-sinking, long ratio for the last gear. The seven-speed S tronic is designed for up to 9,000 rpm and can transmit torque of up to 55 Nm.
Vorsprung durch Technik: the history of S tronic
Audi has led the march in the field of transmissions for many years. The introduction of quattro all-wheel drive in 1980 was a milestone in the history of automotive technology. And the S tronic is a prime example of the company's basic philosophy –
“Vorsprung durch Technik.”
The first Audi with a twin-clutch transmission was produced way back in November 1985 – the Sport quattro S1, which was driven by Walter Röhrl and his copilot Christian Geistdörfer in the World Rally Championships. Röhrl, the finest rally pilot of his time, described his 350 kW (476 hp) sports car as “a formidable thing” and a “natural phenomenon” – and the high-tech transmission provided him with even more powerful performance.
The twin-clutch transmission, which was controlled electrically with a short touch control lever in the S1, could shift through its five gears at lightning speed. Because the traction was not interrupted, the turbocharger for the five-cylinder engine remained constantly pressurized – a bypass in the engine’s airways supported this effect. A twin-clutch transmission was also on board the S1 during training for Röhrl’s victorious storming of the peaks during the 1987 Pikes Peak mountain race in Colorado.
The S tronic is one of the most versatile solutions in Audi's range of transmissions. In the spring of 2003, Audi introduced the technology in series production in the TT Coupe and Roadster, combined with the high-torque 3.2-liter V6 with 184 kW (250 hp). The ultra-compact twin-clutch transmission, designed for transverse installation with six gears, was the perfect complement to the powerful engine. TT pilots could use it in automatic mode or shift the gears by hand, either with the short shift selector lever or with rocker switches affixed behind the steering wheel.
In the past five years, the new technology in the TT and A3 has become firmly established – as dynamic high-tech alternatives to hand-shifting as well as being fully imbued with the positive attributes of a conventional geared automatic transmission. Due to its wide range of strengths, the S tronic is also available in the A3 with a TDI four-cylinder engine. By the end of 2007, Audi had produced 188,338 cars in both model lines with twin-clutch transmissions.
A wide-ranging program: the ideal solution for every need
Today, Audi has a wide-ranging portfolio of transmission technology options – five technologies with widely varying characteristics may now be selected to perfectly fulfill their specific range of applications. Aside from the sporty S tronic with six – and now seven – gears, Audi offers a classic manual transmission, an automatic R tronic, the comfortable tiptronic torque-converter transmission, and the versatile, continuously variable multitronic – at least two customized solutions are available for each model range. The common denominators among all of these transmissions are compact and light construction, high efficiency, precise functioning in extremely durable quality, and convenient and simple operation.
Manual shift transmissions are available in many of the model ranges, from the compact A3 to the A6, along with the TT, the Q7 and the R8; they are suitable for combination with front-wheel and quattro drives. In the A4 and A5 model lines, Audi has introduced a new generation of transmissions that are notable due to modified positioning of the differential and for their greatly reduced internal friction, which further improves efficiency. Most manual transmissions operate with six gears. In the A3 1.9 TDI e and A3 Sportback 1.9 TDI e, five-gear transmissions are used in which the upper gears feature a somewhat longer gear ratio – which helps sink consumption on average to an exemplary 4.5 liters of diesel per 100 km (52.27 mpg).
The sequential-shift R tronic with six gears is reserved exclusively for the R8; as befits the character of a supercar, the engineers have designed it to be especially dynamic. In the R tronic, hydraulic units manage activation of the gears and clutch, and the driver’s commands are transmitted electronically.
The tiptronic transmissions from Audi are found in all sedan model lines, from the A3 to the A8, as well as in the high-performance Q7 SUV, in combination with front-wheel or quattro drive. The great strength of this classic torque-converter transmission is in its highly convenient shifting. In order to improve this even further while also improving efficiency, in the latest configuration, engineers have modified the damping system in the torque converter. In addition, gear shifting is completed more swiftly.
The redesigned multitronic also features even greater efficiency and dynamics. The continuously variable transmission from Audi combines the advantages of manual gear shifting with the strengths of an automatic. As an especially comfortable driveline, the multitronic available in the A4, A5, A6 and A8 is paired with front-wheel drive. The new seven-gear S tronic developed by Audi, which will be introduced in series production in multiple models during the course of this year, is combined with quattro technology – Audi has designed it as a sporty and highly efficient high-tech transmission.
