I never really thought of this, but you're definitely right. I imagine Acura's offerings would have to be more competitive if it competed with the European brands on European soil.

:rofl:

I totally agree that Acura went off track at around 2008-2012. In that time period, they first talked about tier-1 (V8, RWD), a V10 FR sports car. They launched the 4G TL and ZDX which many people went wtf. Then the economy tanked and Honda got really scared and overreacted as they cancelled the tier-1 objective and V10 FR sports car. Later, they started talking about smart luxury. Obviously they screwed up the ILX. I don't see any smart luxury with that car. For the RLX, I can see how that car is related to smart luxury. Unfortunately, the exterior design is a big issue with it.

Again, all I am saying is that, Acura seems to be turning the corner. The RLX was off to a bad start obviously. However, the upcoming TLX, eSH-AWD, 9AT, VTEC turbo, 8-DCT, etc all sound pretty positive to me.

Two actions is better than no action right?

What other innovations have other brands made in that same period, besides turbocharged/supercharged engines and DCT? I struggle to name any significant innovations from other brands other than those.

Like I said earlier, Acura lost focus in the past several years, and now they are playing catch up. All I am saying is, things look much more positive than a few years ago for the brand. We have seen eSH-AWD and 7-DCT in use. We have also seen weight reduction technologies being used on new Acura products, namely the MDX. And we will be seeing the TLX, 9AT, 8-DCT, and 2nd gen SH-AWD (not to be confused with eSH-awd) shortly.

Let's face it, Acura was in bad shape in the past several years. Is it realistic to expect Acura to be flying high with the latest and greatest cars and technologies now that they seem to know where they are heading?

I agree. Hard to compete when the volume is low. As I said before, Mercedes is milking the MFA FWD platform at 500k units per year. That's over 3 times more than Acura annual sales in the US.

Agree. 2 actions are better than none. But once again, it's too little, too late; given the shape the Acura sedan division is in now.

Other than force-induction motor and DCT, I can think of DI, 7/8 speeds auto tranny, performance hybrid.

Acura just introduced DI motors last year, whereas most major automakers have been using DI for years.

Acura is playing catchup now on 7/8 speeds auto tranny and performance hybrid, with a yet-to-be-released top-line sedan.

By innovations, I'm talking about something like SH-AWD, eSH-AWD, DCT WITH torque converter, VTEC, etc. You know, things that never existed before. Perhaps a better word to use would be invention rather than innovation?

DCT is nice, and that's what I'd called a nice invention. Like SH-AWD, it's been out there for like 9 years or so. And like I said before, I don't think Lexus or Infiniti have DCT at this moment. I would say these are major companies.

I'm not sure if you get my point. I see Acura bringing its own fair share of new inventions. I see SH-AWD 9 years ago. Then obviously they wasted several years with the whole tier-1 thing. But now they are coming back with new inventions again, namely eSH-AWD and DCT with torque converter. I see solutions to real world problems here.

AWD was known hurt straight line performance and fuel economy. eSH-AWD improves both straight line performance and fuel economy. Not only that, it also improves handling.

DCT works very well and improves performance once the car is moving by banging off super fast shifts. However, even the best DCTs nowadays still suffer from some jerkiness at very low speeds. They are simply not as smooth as a proper AT with torque converter. The DCT with torque converter solves this issue.

With other companies, I just see them copying inventions from others. BMW and Audi are definitely the leading companies in turbocharging/supercharging technologies these days. And these powerplants actually do well in the real world by offering some serious performance and decent fuel economy. But other companies that also started using boost, such as Ford, Hyundai, GM, etc, their real world results haven't been as successful. The same can be said with their attempts at making DCT's, which IMO have been laughable.

In many cases, Honda's old technologies are still outperforming many competitors. I think what we all want to see is Honda/Acura coming up with technologies that actually deliver real world benefits, not just to be "cool" and "trendy," like some other manufacturers. A good example would be the Accord V6 versus the Kia Optima 2.0T. They both have around the same hp (274hp vs 278hp) but the Optima has a bit more torque. Their power to weight ratios are similar. They both use 6AT. One car uses an outdated SOHC V6 engine, while the other uses the latest and greatest 2.0 turbocharged engine with DI and all the goodies. The above specs and numbers would tell you that the Optima should be the faster car. But in reality, the Accord is significantly faster.

0-60: 5.5s vs 6.4s
1/4 mile ET: 14.1s vs 15s
1/4 mile Trap Speed: 101mph vs 96mph

The actual performance numbers confirm that the Accord is a much quicker car despite using outdated technologies. So the question is, do you want the latest and greatest technologies, or do you want better real world performance? We are not even getting into things such as NVH where V6 is traditionally better than I4.

Oh jeez.

Iforyou, due to the length of your post, I won't re-quote it here.

We're talking about different things.

You're talking about new inventions and then moving onto performance numbers and NVH; whereas I'm talking about any mainstream technology that will help promoting the "high tech" and "advance" image of the Acura brand, regardless of it being a novice technology or a "follow-others" technology.

My main point is not to let the Acura brand to fall behind the industry's best in terms of auto and engine technologies.

In reality, outdated technology is outdated technology. It also gives the auto brand an undesirable outdated image.

As reflected by the alarming Acura sedan sales figures, it looks like premium sedan buyers don't buy outdated technologies that tend to give the Acura brand the image of a stagnant auto brand.

The one thing I don't understand from Honda as a whole, is a lot of these "sexy/luxury" technologies that the other companies wave around (ie HUDs, nightvision, etc), it's not that Honda doesn't have them in their stable somewhere in the world, it's that they just refuse to bring them to the US and give them to Acura. They all fit into the image they're trying to portray, but for whatever reason they refuse to bring them stateside.

^^^^^

You know, this "adjustable damping system" (=adjustable suspension) is a good thing, with which Lexus and BMW are using in more and more of their vehicle lineups.

However, Acura did have an adjustable suspension feature in the 2G MDX and ZDX, but now decided not to use it in any Acura products (including the latest 3G MDX).

Also, the current RDX has lost the advance SH-AWD, only to be given a low-tech, non-advance conventional AWD system.

Now, if these aren't a backward shift in the Acura's "Advance" image, I don't know what is.

Edward, we are definitely talking about different things here.

Like I said, they have just wasted several years by pursuing tier-1 and then cancelling it (and developments associated with it such as V10, RWD, V8). It is what it is now.

I'm just glad that things are turning around now.

How's the new IDS compared to the old ADS in the MDX? The new IDS is still an adjustable suspension setup but it's a reactive system (which is supposed to be not as good as an active setup).

I hope there will be a RDX-S or something with SH-AWD. I know it's selling like hot cakes now but like you are saying, the RDX doesn't seem to be fit the "Advance" image very well. It's a bread and butter entry level luxury CUV.

^^^^^

According to Acura, the IDS, as used on the 2014 MDX, adjusts steering effort, throttle response, SH-AWD torque distribution, and active sound to suit the tastes of the driver.

It DOES NOT alter the suspension damping factor at all.

The Amplitude Reactive Damper, as used on the 2014 MDX, is basically the same-O-dumb conventional damper unit but supported by two springs, each with a different spring rate.

There is nothing to it, just some fancy marketing name that doesn't really do much. The MDX still rows and sways excessively when cornering, but rides rough on less than perfect roads.

The previous generation (2G) had the "Active Magneto-Rheological Damper Suspension" available as an upgrade option. But Acura has dropped it altogether on the latest 3G MDX. A very bad move indeed.

In addition, I don't find the IDS any useful, because the steering effort in any mode other than "SPORT" is so overly assisted that the driver can virtually turn the steering wheel from lock to lock with just 1 finger. Maybe it's calibrated for drivers with arthritis issues.

Like what Cadillac is talking about with it's future flagship!!

500 hp V8!

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/cad...-and-info-news

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/i...FAK4nJpm7XMFE8

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...jYo6VBSXXBaLpo

https://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:...m6AHEoLhEcMkeJ

:nod:

:nod: Acura needs to come up with its own version of GMs Magnetorheological shocks or a 4 corner hydraulic suspension kinda like the new Mclaren

Whatever. Just make it available right now on all "ADVANCED" Acura model lines.

Along with other options that are advance and not just catching up to the Joneses.

I'm not looking to haul ass in the family hauler so lack of adjustable dampers doesn't bother me so much in our MDX. Wifey loves the normal setting compared to the 2G Mdizzle.


Over assisted, lack of feel, vague on-center is the biggest beef with my 6MT. IDS with "sport" setting will alleviate some of my complaints and it is on the next TLX. EPS is de facto new standard, so we'll have to get used to it. Even the luxo-barge fat pig BMW's are going the same route and lack of road feel is a standard feature on Audi's too. It is what it is.

EPS, I can get used to. It is the over assisted (electrical or hydraulic) power steering that I can't.

The 2014 MDX's "Comfort" and "Normal" IDS modes are exactly just that - over assisted power steering setting.

But if most drivers are picking the "Sport" IDS mode, then this will defeat the purpose of having put in the extra lame IDS ("Comfort" and "Normal") modes.

Can't say that I disagree with you and "sport" setting is what my key is set to default to, but there is an audience out there (probably soccer moms) which loudly complained about the heavy steering effort of the 2G. What the percentage is, I dunno. Like you, I prefer the natural feel of hydraulic steering, but the market is clearly going in another direction.

IDS is really designed for different people. I wouldn't call the feature useless. Obviously for enthusiasts, they might find it useless since they will only use the sport mode. But for the MDX, there are many buyers who are just looking for a comfortable luxury SUV that can also haul 7 people. To them, sport mode would be a bit too much. So, the system can be useless for some, but useful for others. I personally wouldn't mind having this feature. Some days I may feel like going for a relaxing cruise, and on some days, I may want to have a more engaging ride.

It's too bad the MDX no longer has active dampers though. Seems like the money went to other areas such as significant weight reduction.

:werd:, Acura needs to solve the sedan styling and price point. Acura wallowed from 1986 until the late 90's when they got to a good product positioning with the 2G TL and 1G MDX.

This was enhanced in the mid-2000's with the 3G TL, 1G TSX, 2G RL, 2G MDX and dropping the RSX. Went off-track with the sedans in the late 2000's. The SUV's are well positioned but now they need to execute on the sedans.

I wouldn't call it useless. For me, IDS in "sport" mode makes the MDX tolerable to drive.

Active dampers probably make more sense in sport sedans and coupes, not family haulers. :co:

Those who are looking for a comfortable RIDE luxury 7-passenger SUV will, all the more, need the COMFORT setting from an "active damper suspension"; because the current single-calibration suspension setting on the 2014 MDX is NOT on the comfortable side at all, nor is it sporty enough to perform as a Sport SUV, like the X5 with Dynamic Performance Control.

Only "active damping suspension" can transform a SUV from an easy-riding people hauler to a bone-jarring cornering machine and vice versa, or even something in between, with just a flip of a selection switch; in order to fulfill closer to the dual duty of relaxing cruising and also engaging ride.

I too agree that weight reduction is good, but at least make "active damping suspension" as available option, rather than not offering it at all on it's "ADVANCED" top-of-the-line SUV and top-of-the-line sedan.

Yea it just doesn't feel right to take away a feature that was once available.

I test drove both X5 35i and MDX last year at the Pitt Meadows Driving Centre. I spent quite a bit of time in each vehicle (weren't that many people there so I had the chance to test out different modes in each vehicle many times).

The X5 is a great SUV. It's pretty sporty and comfortable for what it is. It suffers from quite a bit of understeer but it's probably because it doesn't have all those extra options such as DPC.

The MDX is awesome as well. I thought it delivers a very good balance of handling and ride comfort. There were artificial bumps setup on the track so that we could test both handling and ride comfort. Will it out handle a X5 with all the handling options at the sportiest setting? Perhaps not. Is it as comfortable as a X5 with the softest setting? May be, may be not? However, the MDX is definitely one of the best in terms of balancing both handling and ride comfort. One could only imagine how much better it could have been with a proper active suspension system.

AutoNews
 

Shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic? :tongue:

And :what: @ not only keeping, but promoting someone who has done a poor job at driving Acura's sales and brand objective. :whyme:

Most importantly, Acura seriously needs it's own product development unit.

A dedicated Acura sales and marketing unit can only do so much or so little, especially when the Acura vehicles are not up to it.

This seems like another head scratcher business move by Acura.

Disagree. The separation of Honda and Acura is only good for Acura. Hopefully it gives the company a little more autonomy with regards to its direction. This is a step in the right direction.

How do you figure it can only be good with the same people running the show that has gotten it to the point it is now. All they did was turn the chairs to face a different wall.

Acura as usual 2 steps forward, 2 backwards.

+1, so true. It's good to have parts bin engineering but also important to be independent. Porsche/Audi/VW have done it for decades, and it's worked well for them.

Tell me how this is worse, again? Separating Honda and Acura is brilliant. They need to be related, yet think for themselves. The Acura folks need to worry about and fight for Acura, not Honda.

I think its a good move. The point others are I think trying to make is that they kept the same people in charge. Acura needs new blood and new ideas. Not the same people that had anything to do with the RLX and ILX.

That's a fair argument, but I see that still as a positive. The former VP of Honda North America is now in charge over Acura. He can't hide behind CR-V, Civic, and Accord sales; He is judged specifically based on how many cars go out with the calipers logo. Honda execs know the Acura sedan lineup requires improvement. I doubt Mr. Accavitti will be around if the sedan lineup doesn't turn around.

dom is right. Yep. We all know separating the brands is a brilliant move. But they should have brought in someone from outside.

We'll see.

At the end of the day, we all want Honda/Acura to succeed.

^^^^^

Honda has already succeeded, as an global economy brand.

It's only that Acura, even after 25+ years in existence, is still lacking the brand status to successfully sell $50+K sedans.

This!

Why not? They have kept the same Acura crew around this whole time even though its been a blunder to say the least. Why would separating the 2 change anything?

Because Erik Berkman is now in charge.

Did you love the 3G TL?

That was all him. He was head of President of R&D and was project leader for a lot of the GOOD stuff Acura did.

He's an American who loves Honda, what Honda has done and loves racing and sporty vehicles.

That is a gamechanger.

The REAL question is: Will Honda let him take Acura to the level it should and easily could be?

:ponder: