JeffS

I completely agree. I am hoping with Honda expanding the Acura sales channel to Japan and the design center in CA that this will be the start to some separation between the two. The current styling of TSX and TL are really good, now expand upon those designs for the next gens and add some spice and presence to the RL .

I would like to see them separate platforms from the TL on up. The TSX can still share the Accord platform just using SH-AWD, but I'd like to see the TL, RL and upper level sedan (QL maybe?) share a new platform that is designed for RWD or AWD use only.

They need more torque, especially in the TSX and RL.

Also, I don't like when they build Acuras on the same lines as a Honda model using the same materials (i.e. Accord and TL). I know it is manufacturing efficiency, but it cheapens the more expensive car when they use the same materials for both. An example would be to use real wood verses the wood trim. Although I must admit the TSX and TL have excellent color and patterns for the fake stuff. Same leather is another example.

Lastly, they need to improve the customer experience at the dealers. Acura needs to educate the sales staff how to treat a higher end clients as not everyone is coming from a lesser brand with lower expectations. I wouldn't mind seeing trendier styled dealerships to separate themselves from Honda's too.

That is my plus some more....

Motohip

I agree to a point, but they need to treat everyone with respect, not just the ones with more money. I get tired of getting treated like crap just cause I don't look like I'm old enough to have money. Ever get passed on to someone else so they could help another customer? Doesn't feel good. That's when I walk out. The Infiniti dealship in my area is like this too. Not sure about Lexus. And just because it's a "lesser brand" like you say, doesn't mean I have lower expectations on how I should be treated.

GreenMonster

Ok... While I was looking for something else I found this press release on the Honda news website:

http://hondanews.com/CatID3046?mid=2...&archives=1995

"The overall styling theme of the CL-X concept car will actually be utilized in an exciting new Acura model that will be designed, engineered and manufactured here in the USA."

If that doesn't say that the CL was designed and built in the USA, I don't know what does

Fibonacci

I don't take issue with the Acura 'family' look, but the Honda 'face' on the new Civic and Accord is wretched.

M TYPE X

I really like the non-grille, open-space wing'd front end design
on the Accord and Civic.

phile

It was designed in Honda's LA, California design studio. The MDX was the second Acura to be specifically engineered and designed for the US market as well. Which pretty much makes sense that the new Acura design studio would then be out in Cali.

GreenMonster

Yep, and hopefully having a seperate design studio will put distance between the honda and acura products...

I hate to say it, but when people say the RL looks like a fat accord, I can't really disagee w/ them

phile

I know, but even the old Legends looked like the old Accords, except more refined (and it's pretty much the same with the new RL and Accord), so I don't know why people have issues with it now.

heyitsme

Its weird that Acura all of a sudden broke the styling theme started by the tsx/tl. I can't help but think that a beefier fullsize car with tl styling cues would have turned some heads.

phile

In retrospect, that probably would've worked far better than the Accord/Pontiac/I35/Impala/whatever-else-it-reminds-you-of design.

Edward'TLS

Exactly, the Acura's look so much like the Honda's since day one. The issue at hand is that if Acura wants a stronger image or identity, it has to look different from the cheaper Honda cars.

Motohip

Got dem it! They said it will probably be about 2010 before the world sees the first Acura created at the design center. The one they're building! The CL was designed at a different design center! I hope you're happy. I have no more care cause I pulled it all out!!!

runnerX

First Acura needs to stop selling rebadged Civic in Canada. and make all Acura AWD or RWD, not like Honda FWD.

MSZ

Tell M-B to stop selling their 140hp B200 first. The Canadian market is a totally different story.

Motohip

Yeah, totaly different, I agree.

Edward'TLS

The reason why Acura sells rebadged Civic in Canada dates back to the 4-rounded-headlight Integra's era. At that period, the 3-door model was welcomed by the younger buyers, but the 4-door model never took off because the older buyers were taken back by the aggressive 4 rounded headlight front-end. As a result, the creation of the EL, which was a luxurized Civic selling for a higher price, to replace the 4-door model. Then the EL was selling like hotcakes, and I guess that's why Acura is still doing it today.

phile

The 4-door Integra didn't sell in the US either. I think 4-door hatchbacks are pretty useful when they actually have a hatch. The Integra's problem was that it was a hatchback masquerading as a sedan.

Crazy88

Acura wants a stronger image? hmm i wonder why.

Lets look at the lineup: RSX, TSX, MDX, TL, RL.....Nothing special except the TSX and TL.

The RSX,TSX, TL, MDX are all strong sellers. I think they should still keep the RSX, even though it hurts the image. Acura needs to buid some faster cars, along with more luxurious cars. Look at Infiniti and Lexus, they dont have any cheepo models like the RSX and they have big, capable RWD V8 flagships. Acura also needs to distinguish itself from Honda.

Here are the Average base prices of manufacturer lineups excluding M and AMG divisions.

Acura AVG=$33,400
Infiniti AVG=$43,400
Lexus AVG=$48,000
BMW AVG=$48,000
Benz AVG=$62,000

When your average base price is $33,000, its kind of hard for people to look at Acura as a luxury brand. I know price isnt the determing factor of luxury cars, but to some it is. Ohh, and all the manufacturers I listed above have RWD/AWD and V8s in the lineup, Whereas Acura ONLY has FWD/AWD and V6s. Acura is the weak link in the luxury automobile chain.

What I like about Acura is that you get alot for what you pay for, which isnt the case for many other luxury cars. For $33,000 the TL has a very nice interior, and for $49,000 The RL has a nice interior, but thats about it. Acura has the potential to be comparable to other luxury makes, it just may take 5 or 10 years and some new models that really make you say WOW.

Belzebutt

Holy smokes, I don't know where you got these figures but they tell the story right there.

phile

Acura needs more models in the upper range.

PS - I double checked the numbers, and it appears that that figure for Acura does not include the NSX. If it did, Acura's avg base price # would be up in the 40's also, but kind of a moot point since the NSX doesn't sell at all. But I think it's worth pointing out.

Crazy88

just went to each website and added up all the base prices of every model, excluding M and AMG and if there was a model with a V6 and a V8 offered, I took the V6 price. So really the average prices of all of the other manufacturers is higher if you include optional V8s.

GreenMonster

What acura needs to do, is hire me as vice president of design...

Much like Bangle at BMW or J. Mays at ford, I'll push my designers to put out some interesting designs in line with current acura styling.

First order of business will be to introduce a replacement for the prelude/CL coupes... It will wear an acura badge and be RWD... It will be a true sportscar (and the interim flagship until the redesigned NSX is produced) to help Acura transform into a "sporty" luxury brand and assume top position among the japanese luxury car companies...

For example, here's my pitch for the new Acura Coupe...

A 2+2 Coupe will be developed, that will incorporate some of the design cues found in the TL and TSX.... (headlights, 5 point grille, etc)... RWD w/ a 3.8L V6... 320hp should be easily obtainable with that displacment. Variable Cylinder Management (like what is used on the odyssey) will enhance honda's image of fuel effecincy. Compression will be lower on this motor (hence the need for a large 3.8L) so that premium fuel is NOT required. While the motor will be a high revving motor, lower end torque will be one of the distinquishing characteristics of this vehicle. This will help to diminish the "Hold On, Not Done Accelerating" stigma attached to H.O.N.D.A.'s... A special A-spec package will be offered. At the center of the package will be a special lower compression motor to allow fitting of factory installed supercharger (sorry Comptech) AND a factory intercooler. The A-spec version will have a special lower front bumper valance to distingish it from the the reqular production version, and to accomodate the intercooler. The rest of the a-spec package will be similiar to the a-spec packages currently offered (kit, springs, etc)....

Motohip

I have a problem with factory installed options on a luxury brand. It cheapens the car to the level of a Scion. I would leave that at the Honda dealership. If I'm buying an expensive car, they better put all that stuff on there at the factory, not have some joe blow at the dealership do it.

GreenMonster

Nothing says "We mean business" like a supercharger installed at the factory... It's not a new thing either... heck, I've got my brothers supercharged 91 Ford Tbird SuperCoupe in my garage...

The Pontiac GTP's, Ford Lighting and Cobra, GM's Redline/Cobalt SS, and some Nissan trucks are other examples of cars with a supercharger from the factory....

M TYPE X

Lexus is said to be working on a super sports GT too. If Acura does it, they won't be the only one.

Moog-Type-S

...not bad...but please Acura, ditch the 5-point grille!!!!
It's an albatross around the designers necks. Come up with a new grille design for all the models, or ditch the "brand specific grille".

Infamous425

i like the 5 point grill but if they come up with something different i wouldnt mind. the average car buyer probably wouldnt even know its an acura if shown a 5 point grill without the badge.

Crazy88

I think what Acura needs to do is what everyone else does.

BMW, M-B, Lexus and Infiniti all have different available engines for a most models. So you can get a small engine model or a bigger engine more ballsy model. And most of these models have many options.

With Acura, there is only one available engine per model.

fabrikated

mrdeeno

Totally agree and I've been bitching about this since I passed up on the RL!

Since they are relatively new to this market segment, they have to play the same game the others are playing (giving options/trims/engine choices). Then once they get a foothold on the market and are considered on par with the others, then they can try to change things up and do it their way.

M TYPE X

Extend the doors on the photochop so it looks like a real coupe and not a two-door sedan.

Infamous425

extend the doors and it'll look like the CL replacement

Edward'TLS

I think this will take a looong, looong time. After almost 20 years in existence, Honda still hasn't been able to put the Acura name plate in all countries where Honda is sold.

mrdeeno

The game I'm talking about is the addition of options/engine/trim choices.

People complain about other luxury makes having all kinds of options, especially the Euro-makes. But this makes sense in this segment where people are more picky and less prone to settle for compromise.

Lexus and Infiniti has been imitating this form of selling. For example, you can say Infinit has 4 versions of the M...the M35 or 45, M35 sport and 45 sport.
And within each of these major choices you can pick different options packages (and even Sirius or XM).

So for people who want something not sporty and don't need/want a v8, they can get the regular m35. If they want something sporty but don't want the v8, they can get the M35 sport. This model arrangement covers all types of buyers in this segment.

They have MULTIPLE trim levels in their Honda lineup. For people who want just a family sedan, they can get an accord LX i4. If they want something faster, they can get the accord LX v6. If they want top of the line, they can get the accord EX v6. If they are eco-conscious, they can get the hybrid. If they want sporty, they can even get a 6speed now in the sedan (true?). The accord covers all bases of this segment. The RL should do the same, which it doesn't. Infiniti and Lexus know this, so they sell their cars like the Euros do, with a lot of choices and options.

This is the way the RL should be sold. This is the game that others are successfully playing, and most of them have been in the game a lot longer than the RL. Once the RL is established by playing this game with options, they can eventually limit options and offer just packages and maybe even one trim level, but they have to realize that buyers in this segment don't like to make compromises..

Edward'TLS

The main reason why Acura doesn't or can't offer engine options for its mid-size cars is that there is no V8 to choose from, and even if it has it'll be too powerful for its FWD platform. Most German and luxury Japanese car makers offer engine choices of V6 or torquey V8 for their mid-size vehicles. The torque outputs of the Honda 3L, 3.2L, and 3.5L V6 engines don't differ by a great deal. It would be a disaster to put a 2.4L I4 in a heavy mid-size car. So there isn't much to choose from. I think until the day Honda admits defeat by offering V8 and RWD, we won't see that happening.

As a sidenote, many luxury makers have been putting V6 or I6 generously into their small cars, such as C320, A3 3.2, 330i, IS350. But Honda/Acura is still treating its V6 as its prized crown jewel to be used generously.

Moog-Type-S

No thanks.

GreenMonster

On the first gen CL's you got a choice of engines... 4 banger or Six...

But since acura has expanded their lineup, they don't want a 4 banger CL to monkey with the sales of TSX's... or 6 cly TSX's taking away from TL sales... etc... etc...

There might be a financial reason why Acura doesn't do this anymore... Supporting more engines in a platform (that may or may not sell that well), is more expensive then just supporting one...

Edward'TLS

But funny the German's been doing it for a long time, and now Nissan/Infiniti is doing it.

Audi : A3-2.0T/A4-2.0T, A3-3.2/A4-3.2/A6-3.2, A6-4.2/A8-4.2.
BMW : 330i/530i, 545i/745i.
Mercedes : C320/E320, E500/S500/CLS500.
Nissan/Infiniti : 3.5V6 application -> Altima, Maxima, G35, M35.

Don't know why Honda/Acura have to worry about one stealing sales from the other.

phile

I don't know either. And I think you made a very good point in the RL thread about the ES having no real competition, except maybe for a top model Camry or Avalon. At the end of the day, the money goes go Toyota, regardless of whether the customer chose an ES or a Camry.

Honda shouldn't be afraid of buyers cross shopping a TSX with a TL, IMO.

mrdeeno

I think these other models have an advantage that Honda/Acura doesn't...each model is built on more or less a separate platform, and/or offer significant different in either size and/or features. So the chances of cross shopping is much less.

For example, someone shopping for an a FWD Altima isn't likely to cross shop it with a RWD sportier (and smaller?) G35. Someone who is shopping for E320 isn't going to consider the smaller C320. Basically these cars don't have much overlap between levels.

OTOH, all Acura sedans are built on the same platform. Their price/size/features between levels all overlap more heavily, which would lead to more cross shopping.

Therefore, Acura has good reason to worry, because its models are more likely to be cross-shopped between each other. It's not that they couldn't differentiate their models more, even sharing the same platform (Infiniti models mostly share the same platform but are very different from one another). again, they chose not to invest in the necessary R&D to do this...example: a V8 in the RL would DEFINITELY differentiate it from the TL. They made their bed so now they must lie in it.