twizta

need some bass. have a lil over one grand and was wonderin what the best deal is for a sub and an amp. any ideas???

TSXsurf

i'd go into a Tweeter store and see what they have to offer. I wouldn't tell them you're willing to spend the $1000 though or they'll make sure that you do.

CCColtsicehockey

Here is the setup I just purchased about three weeks ago and I am very happy with it.

Amp
http://www.woofersetc.com/product.as...4&1=375&3=2330


Sub
http://www.woofersetc.com/product.as...4&1=377&3=3073

elduderino

Here's the quandary. You can spend $1K and get good gear and great install - molded fiberglass enclosure, good sub, good powerful amp.

Now you have outclassed the entire rest of the system. Your mids and highs (put deferentially) suck hind tit (OK, maybe not that deferentially).

So IMHO, you are better off either spending less money, if you are SURE that you will never upgrade the rest (many here were sure, but now they have : ) or determine that you will need to upgrade the rest and plan from day one (which may run a bit more than $1K: )

The other thing you have to determine is if you are OK with a regular off-the-shelf or table-saw-built MDF box covered in TSX-trunk-liner-color chia pet fur, or if you are aiming for a custom enclosure, made with a MDF front baffle and rear molded out of fiberglass, to fire the woofer across the side of the trunk. One of these, made right, sounds better and looks better than a box sitting in the trunk... but costs more to do and is harder to get (because installers that know how are rarer...)

I would lean towards a single 12" in the TSX if I could... I haven't measured the sides to see what fits. A 10" does OK. I would think low xover point and F speaks that can fill the gap...

I also don't know where in Taxes you are... some installers have been recommended by tuan209 in the Dallas area.

gmfreed

I like TSXsurf's idea.....go to Tweeter. I'll even tell you what to get........

JL Audio 250/1 mono amp..................$400
JL Audio 10w6v2 10" sub..................$380
Handbuilt sub enclosure......................$80
Cables............................................ ..$100
Installation...................................... ..$55

TOTAL $1,015.00

Plus tax ofcourse.....But that would be a pretty good set up to compliment the rest of the factory system.

I work for Tweeter so those labor and accessories prices are dead on

elduderino

1) Has anyone verified that JL Class D amps do not interfere with the TSX rear-window FM antenna reception? Many others havem but I have not heard of JL doing it.

2) WHO BUILDS A SUB BOX FOR $80 - CONVICTS? Putting a W6 in an $80 box is like putting a built 350 on a Vega frame.

3) How can you possibly say that a W6 and a $400 class D amp are comparable to the factory setup? Seriously... do you really think that? I would say maybe a JL 'e'-series small amp, a W0, and an $80 box... but your setup is a better example of outpacing the rest of the system than any I could think of. Not a bad setup at all, but still illuminating my point...

GMfreed, just curious, if a TSX owner comes into Tweeter and wants to upgrade the speaks and amp, using the OE HU, what do they say? (yourself excluded, that would be cheating: )

gmfreed

If he only wants the spend $100 for equipment and install you doesnot need to do a crazy custom box. We build a standard square sealed 10" enclosure for $80. All boxes are built to manufacture specs.

I did not say that amp and sub were comparable, I said it would compliment very well. That setup is not a ton of bass, but very tight and clear.


As for having TSX's comming in to our store, there really arent many TSX's in the Baltimore area, the ones I do see around here, are mostelt older people.......mid 40's and up. It is very strange that this car appeals to them more than the Accord sedan. So I can not honestly answer your question on what my sales guys would tell a customer to do. But we do alot of factory stereo upgrades using the OE headunit. Its all about the quality of product, and the level of cables you use.

elduderino

1) Custom boxes are not "crazy". (I know you meant $1000, btw). There is absolutely no f*cking way that a speaker box made for $80 is comparable to an assymetrical, fiberglassed enclosure.

2) I seriously doubt that Tweeters in Texas or SoCal or Florida (if they renamed Sound Advice) will build boxes for $80 either. What's it made of? Are the sides all parallel? Are the joints sealed? This is just totally weird to me.

3) Just so you know, honest to God, the cable you use has nothing at all to do with interfacing to a OE radio. It's true that twisted pair signal cable may be best in some cars, I'm a fan of it, but please don't believe that cable quality helps OE interface - it doesn't. Somebody lied to you.

4) It's also rarely about the quality of the product, once you make sure you aren't using total trash. Most of OE interface is understanding the signal output type (low-level single-ended, balanced, high-level, etc.) and using a good adapter or wiring it properly, and many shops avoid it because they don't have an o-scope and don't know what to do. Just wondering if your guys do... the TSX turns out to be easier than, say, the Lexus HU... most shops seem oriented to added a woofer or replacing the HU, and that's it.

5) Not sure of what you mean about the difference between comparable and complimentary... the W6 with a JL 250 on it would blow the frickin' OE system out of the water. He would end up getting another amp for the front and upgrading the fronts - girl, you know it's true, oooh ooh ooh. I would say get an e1200 amp and a W0, if on a budget.

6) I assume you've had no FM reception issues? I was hoping you'd speak to that... since you have a JL 500/1 with a Class D PS...

Bass Mechanic

im going to agree with eludo here. i have been building boxes for many many years. i charge 100 bux for a basic sealed box and i dont work for a shop. when i used to work retail the same box would run you about 150. every box i build has been computer modeled and designed to fit the car exactly and also matched for the sub to be used.
i guess the difference is my standards are a little higher than shops like tweeter and car toys. i never build a square box and i never use the manufacturers specs. one of the 1st things you will learn when building a box is that all manufacturers LIE! if you know anything about caraudio you would know that you sell a lot more product if you claim your subs play in smaller boxes. it is simple to see that the smaller the airspace you use the more subs (your product) you can stuff into a customers car. as long as it makes bass they are usually happy.
the fact is with a computer i can determin what is the exact size i need to a given woofer given it's specs. (T/S parameters)
every box i build has a double thick driver board so the sub sits flush with the surface of the box. i never just cut a hole and mount the sub so it sticks out of the box. that is very tacky.

also most boxes i build are ported sealed boxes are for sissys why take the time to build a sealed box and get 1/2 the woofers potential? contrary to popular belif with many shops i can make a ported sub sound a lot better than a sealed anyday. the problem with shops is that few have experienced enough installers or computer software to correctly tune and design one. they like to get you in and get you out as fast as possible to get onto the next guy and make more money.it is so much easier to just build the setup 1/2 ass and move the customer out the door and hope they don't come back with problems.

members78

wats the best hearing aid i can buy for $1000?

elduderino

A younger girlfriend for the evening?

Please note that BM is sticking up for ported boxes. I wouldn't go quite as far as he does, but I'm glad to see that someone is pointing out that they work well when properly designed and implemented.

I have done a few cars that had bass that would seriously make you sick. That wasn't MY design intent, because I'm an SQ guy, but I had a few work out that way... and in all of them I was using vented boxes - albeit ones that I had designed on the computer and then tested with a signal generator to finally tune in-car.

I remember once (actually, 1990, I think) I used two Blau 12" (made for blau by some company - I forget), in 1.25 cf, tuned to 32, isobaric mounted (for 1/4 the airspace). Put them in the corner of an Eclipse, made a little cover for the outside of the woofer frame so it looked like some mystery box. Ran about 375 Hifonics mono watts. It would rip your head off and puke down your throat.

Did the same design a few more times, in Civic hatchbacks and the like, and put 4 Rockford Pro 12 in the spare well of a new Civic sedan around the same time. (Customer glassed the back in, and measured the enclosure by going to the store, buying granular laundry detergent, and dumping it in the box till he filled it up. Then he vacuumed it out with a Shop-Vac. I designed the ports on the PC.) Tuned it with a sig gen, two iso pairs, again 375 Watts of Hifonics series 7, and it literally broke the steel around the trunk hasp. He had two star cracks in the sheet metal where the hasp went in, and he was hashing it out with the dealership when the car got totalled.

For SQ, though, there are a couple of things I've noticed:

1) transient response of ported boxes isn't as good. For lowest notes, that's irrelevant, but if you run above 50-60 Hz, the bass can sound muddier. For rap bass, doesn't matter. For acoustic music, if the xover point is too high, you have lotsa output but it's not as tight as it could be. You need to have front mids that play midbass with authoritay, and a F xover that will go low, low, low.

2) You may need a subsonic filter just below the tuning frequency. For some reason, probably to do with impedance below the fS of the port, some rare ported boxes and amps running them freak about 1/2 octave below the final tuning freq. Only seems to matter with boxes that are inadvertently ported in the 45-50 range, or with synthesized rap bass - and rarely even then - but when it happens, sounds like crap until a "subsonic" filter is added. Hifonics used to have a add-in filter with an 18dB/octave filter at 35 and a boost at 45. Sold two, but those two really worked.

3) As boxes get smaller, the port to tune them to a low frequency gets longer (if the diameter stays the same). This is just the math, but try tuning a 1cf box to 35 Hz! The fricking port (which does NOT count towards the volume of the box) won't fit! The box has to e designed with this in mind from the get-go. Back in the day, we could fudge it, because woofers needed bigger boxes, and the port was thus shorter, and things were more forgiving. This is NOT a reason to avoid them, but it is a reason to respect what you have to do.

4) Sealed boxes make it harder to blow up woofers. On the other hand, trying to teach installers back in the day how to tune was a nightmare, with many errors as a result, and I'm confident it's no easier (I've seen long-time car stereo installers who were incapable of figuring the volume if a box 12" x12" x 12". Really.) To an industry with a huge warranty cost, designing sealed-optimized woofs and encouraging small sealed designs makes a lot of sense. I know they probably lie about it sometimes as a result, but I know why, too...

elduderino

So, twizta, where you at? What you thinkin'?

gmfreed

1) When did we get of the topic of the best he can do for $1000, This post is not supposed to be an argument of whats better MDF sealed or a fiberglass enclosure. I will agree a figerglass enclosure is much better, bue he is not trying to spend that kind of money, nor will any installer build him a fiberglass box for money he has to spend. Our speaker boxes are built to manufacture spec, using 3/4" MDF, standard square, all nailed and sealed using liquid nails, carpeted and they all come with standard 24k gold terminal cups. And yes this starts at $80 for a single 10" enclosure. Not a bad deal.

2) As for all Tweeters across the country, we do not have "set prices" for the boxes we build, but all the Tweeters in this area are close to the same price...give or take $10.

3) Everybody is allowed to have their own opinion on cables used. I am a firm beleiver hat cables make a good improvment in the Home and Car. I have been in the consumer electronics business for long enough and seen plenty of test that can prove this. This is why I decide to choose the best cables i can afford all of the time. Why take the risk using shitty cables.

4) To see if you can keep a factory HU without using adapters is as easy as using a multimeter to test the output voltage. The TSX has a low output.....less than 1 volt. You will need to find an amp that can take that input without the use of an adapter, if you choose not to use an adapter. That is why I chose the JL amps. They can take an input as low as a 1/2 volt all the way up to I beleive 16 volts. Good range I would say. My install manager has been installing for over 15 years, he is very capable of completeing these easy tasks.

5) Tunned properly, that setup will be fine, I have done that setup in plenty of vehicles, and only had on customer complaint.......It wasnt enough bass.

6) As far as my radio reception......I lost that long before I installed my JL amps. The tint on my windows is a metallic based tint. That really screwed up my reception, also messed up my defroster. The rear defrost takes more than 30 mins to work, so you can imagine how bad my radio reception is. So as for the JL class D amps messing up radio reception.......I cannot say.

elduderino

I bet he could buy a $250 amp, a $100 woofer, and spend the rest on a fiberglass box and install, and get a totally factory-looking 10" in his trunk. It's less gear and more install. Chain stores are not oriented for this - they tend to think in terms of more gear and less install. I know, I started working for one.

But as far as value for the customer is concerned, I suspect that my system might look better, sound comparable, and be a better investment (with a good installer, of course).

Building a 3/4" MDF box for $80 in an urban area with higher costs is ridiculous.

I just called a Tweeter store in Mass (forgot where you were when I looked it up - my bad). I explained that my girlfriend bought me a JL 10" from them and I needed a box built for my TSX.

They quoted me $450 for a custom box (the only thing custom about it was that it fit under the rear deck). A regular box built to factory specs was $150 (a MUCH more reasonable amount in my opinion, but that's just me). $80 doesn't sound like a good deal - it sounds like a losing proposition for someone... which is rarely a good choice.


That was my point - you're in different geographic areas. Glad we agree.

Don't think I recommended shitty cables. I did, and do, disagree that OE integration has jack to do with cable quality (your original statement). You did not respond to this criticism. Red herring. I have been in the consumer electronics business for almost two decades, but that doesn't mean a thing most of the time - either my arguments hold water or they don't. You claimed benefits for more expensive cables and are now changing the subject.

I have heard differences with cables in expensive home systems and know that sometimes they do help. I also beleive that telling someone who is upgrading a car system that cables make an audible difference in any area but noise rejection, is being irresponsible. I understand that you diagree. I'd be interested in seeing some of the tests you refer to that bolster your claim regarding car audio.

In my years of retail in car (and originally home) audio, I started off thinking cables made a difference. After a number of times where noise went away with cheap cables, but was present with expensive cables, I started doing more research. What I found was that twisted pair was the ONLY noise-rejection technique that I observed to be effective - drain wires, etc., were not effective in all radiated cases.

There are three things that you can buy in cables for car audio: 1) Noise rejection, 2)durability (especially with the connection made by the ends onto the female RCA's), and 3) sound quality. If the third, sound quality, is possible to hear in a car, the rest of the system would have to be significant in its high-fidelity capability. Most cars, I've not heard a difference - even though Noel Lee and Monster Cable would like me to think I did.

I beleive that customers are far better served in buying for 1 and 2, and ignoring 3, until the rest of the system is the way they want it. In home audiophile audio, you start changing the cables when you are satisfied with everything else. I think that's the right way to buy sound-quality cables for the car, too.

Actually, this is NOT correct. I've tested the TSX HU, and measured 800mV with the Alpine test CD sine wave (at 10 or 15 dB down). I also measured the same 800mV with an Alpine 7903 on the bench. That Alpine 7903 was not a "less-than-one-volt" HU - it was considered in the industry a 2V HU, better than anything besides the 7909 for a long time. The 800mV was an artifact of that particular test track I used being -10 or -15dB below 0dB. I didn't have a 0dB track at the time, which would have been more accurate.

So, any aftermarket amp will accept the output of the TSX HU. Your statement that only certain amps can take it is incorrect. Any decent acfermarket amp can take the voltage off of this HU.

Also, a multimeter isn't the best way to diagnose OE HU OP - a o-scope is the best way. Otherwise you may run into a balanced signal that will hurt you. Too bad that most shops in the country don't have an o-scope. That's not your fault, but bears pointing out.

We differ in opinion. It is certainly good equipment. I contend that it is an example of a salesperson overselling a customer. I doubt that anyone would ever complain - because any installer worth his salt is going to turn that amp down to match the rest of the system, and that's where the output would probably be squandered.

Damn. I was really looking for that bit of info. Any other JL "slash" Class D amp owners that want to help us out in learning about JL's power supply shielding relative to the rest of the industry?



Oh, and back to the thread - what did you decide? Any more questions? : )

twizta

thx for helpin out everyone

twizta

thats a good idea. im thinkin about gettin one 12, but im still not sure what exactly i want to get ...still lookin around.

as for the enclosure, are you recomending a sealed one elduderino?

elduderino

Sealed is a good first step for you. They are small nowadays, and harder to hurt if you get happy with your volume knob. Wait a few systems before thinking about ported (but don't rule it out: )

One reason I like the 12 over the 10 is that the TSX has the folding seat with the armor plating under it. Only the lowest notes get through. 12"s as a general rule have a slightly lower note in them than 10".

Visit the Bellevue Car Toys, visit the Redmond Car Stereo Plus, see if Paul at Bellevue Autosound is still around (??).

Sounds like you have some decisions to make about install type. You want a carpeted box, or a factory-looking integrated enclosure?

twizta

it really doesnt matter(im not going to always be looking at it). which one would be better to go with?

elduderino

Well, either is functional. I am a big fan of installation as a craft that doesn't change how the vehicle was intended to operate or look. A hi-fi system that looks stock is a very pleasing thing to me. Fewer installers out there that think this way.

But a square (or nearly so) box in the back is always cheaper. As you said, sounds the same. (Although boxes with glass portions and non-parallel sides do sound better...)

But remember, I'm an old guy - what would I know about cool?

I think you might want to ask yourself, "Why am I buying bass?". It's a philosophical question. When you know the answer, you'll know what kind of box you want.

elduderino

OK, here's my nom for $1000:

Elemental kit with one sub, pair of seperates, and two amps for $650.

Spend~$100 for an Elemental box.

Then spend $250 on cables and installation.

There's your grand.

JuMpoFF

I suggest lookin at my system in my sig just pm me for any questions....... i am flexible with the price..... lemme kno u def. wont be dissapointed.....

vidoprof

Sorry so late for the reply... but here is the deal.. IF you get any kind of decent sub in a box with an amp, say JL audio for instance then your front stage is going to lack BIG TIME and you will hate it cause all you will hear is BOOOM. Or thump rather.

I say either upgrade everything.. maybe a decent set of components up front and a sub ina box and a decent 4 channel amp.

Say all lower end JL stuff.. 12w0 or 12w3 if you can get that cheap. A 4 channel JL amp ( I suggest JL for decent stuff I don't like any new Rockford or ANY other brands for amps) Get the components a small 4 channel bridge the back and you are set.

Shouldnt be more than 1K

Ryan