TopGum

A lot of work but I just got the sysytem installed (details below). Overall fantastic!

However, I am getting engine whine and I do not have the fader. Any help is greatly appreciated!

Overall, The posts on this forum were invaluable. Thank you Southbound, Iggy and anyone I am missing (sorry). I would not have attempted without this information. My email is jsldds@hotmail.com if anyone can elighten me this way

Iggy

Topgum,
Need a little more info than that to help. If you detail exactly what you did in chronological order it may help. maybe stuff like: wire routings, eq bypass(or not), wire colors, power sources, etc. Even if it turns out to be a novel, the smallest detail might help track down the cause. I'd be willing to bet it's something very simple, but even the simplest things can be the hardest to track down.

Iggy

TopGum

Some pic of the system. I am trying to put my novel together Iggy


http://groups.msn.com/StevesTLTypeS/...nw?albumlist=2

Southbound

Iggy is the man with connecting to the headunit and bypassing the EQ. If the fader control has been lost, it sounds like you tapped the wires for the new amp from the two "lines outs" (either before or after the EQ) instead of the "speaker outputs" on the stock headunit. The line outs probably have the potential to sound the best, and don't require LOCs, but have the downside of losing the fader control. The speaker outs may not be quite as clean, and require LOCs to drop the level... but give you back the fader control and typically produce LESS ENGINE WHINE due to the much lower impedance of a speaker level output. Also the speaker level output is a "TWO WIRE" bridged output that shouldn't need shielding going to the LOCs. Then the LOCs can properly drop the level and provide a TWO WIRE RCA output to feed the add on amp input. The "line outs" from the headunit are "THREE WIRE" balanced outputs with shields that are actually floating from chassis ground. This configuration is VERY EASY to miswire and cause ground loops, or improper operation of the bass EQ circuit, or engine and electrical noise, etc.

The engine whine could be EASY to solve, or end up being a BE-OTCH to solve! I'm sure that if you give us some more info about how you fed the input of your new amp, and how you ran your power cable, and how you grounded things... We can probably give you some suggestions to try for troubleshooting the system.

I've only replaced the speakers on my TLS, so I can only give advice on "Typical engineering practices". Some times that helps, and sometimes the BLOSE system has done you so many extra unknown "FAVORS" that it takes someone with "Hands on" experience with the car to help you out. Iggy is that man, but I don't want to speak for him when it comes to the amount of time available to help out. Sometimes these problems can be quite easy, or quite frustrating to figure out...

Good Luck!
Southy

TopGum

The guys ran 4G wire thru a circuit breaker to a distribution block. The wires are run along the door sills. All (12G)wiring was replaced. The stock is there but not used. I gave them the detailed instructions and schematics from Iggy's posts on the EQ bypass. At first , there was a lot of whine but it turned out to be a bad LOC. The line outs WERE used but I forget if they were from the HU or spekaer outs per Southbounds reply. I do know that he said the amps can handle up to an 8V input so the LOC was not entirely necessary. The ground is to a seatbelt anchor bolt.

Is the "line out" on the EQ vs "speaker out" on the HU the first place to look? As always , thanks in avance.
-Steve

Iggy

I'm still scratching my cranium on this one topgum. The fact that LOCs were used leads me to believe that the speaker level signals were used. It would be counter productive to put a LOC onto a line level signal. It would make sense though, that if they DID tap the left, right and shared common signal between the HU and EQ you would most certainly lose fade control. I'm not sure where you are picking up the engine whine from, but I can tell you from experience that this HU-EQ combo is VERY picky when it comes to messing with it.

I would say take it back to these guys and have them explain exactly what wires they messed with back there.

When I did mine a while back it took me a long time to figure the whole thing out , but I think the solution is pretty simple from a wiring standpoint.

This diagram below is pretty cut and dried as to which wires to play with:




This link pretty much hammers out the details of how Southy and I found a solution: Bypass thread

As far as which wires to hook into the LOCs they are outlined below:

left rear -gry/wht +blue/yel
right rear -brn/wht +red/yel
drivers -gry/blk +blu/grn
passenger -brn/blk +red/grn

as listed here:schematic


The way I have it retains all of the HU functions(primarily fader) but it is probably not as clean a signal compared to using the line levels outputs from the EQ, but doing so would remove fade control. I hope I'm making sense here.

Anyway,
Did they use a single 4 channel LOC or 2 - 2channel LOCs? What brand? Do they have variable gain controls? How did they route the RCA wires back to the amp....meaning did they go out to the side and back through the door sills or did they go straight back under the carpet and rear seat? How long is the ground wire for the amp(general rule is no longer than 18inches).

One easy way to pinpoint engine whine is to unplug the RCA input plugs at the amp. if there is still noise then you know it has to do with either amp power or ground or just a bad amp. If there is NO noise at this point then you know that the noise is somehow being introduced prior to the amp, probably behind the HU.

I'm not sure how concerned you are with the fading issue. Some people couldn't care less. As far as the engine noise goes it may take some fiddling to find the problem.

Keep us posted,

Iggy

Southbound

Topgum,
yeah, I'm a bit perplexed with what might be going on as well. Most likely they didn't properly bypass the EQ... or messed up the LOCs by using them improperly somehow? If the fader control is missing, then they must have used the line outs... or really screwed up the speaker outs. Like Iggy said, if they used LOCs on the line outs that would explain why you have no fader, and it might explain the noise???? because you shouldn't have to use LOCs on a line level signal. If they did, then the signal feeding the NEW AMP would be attenuated down to a very low level while being fed from a high impedance source... then they would have to make up for this by turning the gains on the new amp ALL THE WAY up... thus creating the noise problem that you are experiencing. That's just one possibility... HOW MUCH DO YOU TRUST THE INSTALLERS? Do you know them to do QUALITY work? Do they really understand what they are doing? Or did you take it to some novice shop? There are a LOT of GREAT shops.... and a LOT more HOBBY SHOPS... It would help to know what level of faith you had in this particular shop... If they didn't sound like they REALLY related to this EQ bypass situation, then they could have easily done things wrong. In any case, it sounds like you should follow Iggy's advice and take it back to them and have a chat about things. If they can't completely and competently explain things to you... then most likely something fundamental went wrong during the process.

Hope this helps a bit...

Hey Iggy,
HOW WAS THE FOLIAGE SEASON THIS YEAR???? I'm so bummed that I couldn't get back there this year... Give me a report as to how it faired compared to other years... I hope you had time to enjoy it with the top open while driving down "THE KANK" in that silver TLS!

Southy

Iggy

Southy,
For some reason the foliage seemed a little dull this year. Not as bright as it usually is, but beautiful none the less. Never made it up the Kank this year 'cause you didn't come out:p

These aren't the greatest but you get the idea.
pic
pic

Just pulled the boat a few days ago and wouldn't you know it snowed this AM

Iggy

TopGum

I really believe the guy knows there stuff. I've seen some of his installs that are super sweet. The car was torn apart as you know. When I picked it up, everything was excatly as before. No scratches, or misfitting pieces and everything worked. However, this is the first time he has come across our Blose system so I have to give him a bit of slack. He is more than willing to get into it again to find the cure. Chances are, he tapped into the wrong wires like you mention. I think the lack of fader control points to this.

This was done already, so we are talking about the HU/EQ.
Thanks for the help guys! It'll work out.

Southbound

TopGum,
It sounds like this shop is reliable and competent. I'd just take it back to them and let them double check things. Like you say, it will work out.

Good Luck!

IGGY,
Hey thanks for the update and the pics of "Little Iggy". I've learned that some years are better than others with respect to how brilliant and how long the foliage season lasts. I'm still trying to figure out just what type of weather year has to preceed and EXCELLENT foliage season. I've read some websites that say the early summer rain period during May and June are crucial to the proper developement of the tree color. Then the actual fall conditions of sunny days and crisp nights help to remove the chloraphil (sp?) and display the true COLORS of the leaves. Can I tell by a May/June rain report that it's going to be a GREAT year or just a mediocre year like this one? OR does the winter weather also have anything to do with things. I know that drought years are not as brilliant... I just don't know what time of the year WITHOUT rain is the MOST CRUCIAL?

Anyway, thanks for the pics! Yes, I get the idea... FRESH AIR and beautiful scenery! That's the one thing missing in L.A. (unless you count the women as scenery) Looks like a NICE SILVER boat to go along with the SILVER TLS! I can't tell, though, is that a fire extingquisher or a bottle of BECKS under the dash???? hehehehe...
Nice looking "little Iggy" as well. CONGRATULATIONS ON THE FAMILY, AND THE WEEKEND OUTINGS! Looks like you have your personal life in order... gotta love a wife who also had the courage to jump on this board awhile back and set us all straight about priorities. The TLS is Great, but the family is FOREVER!

CHEERS! HAVE AN OCTOBERFEST BECKS FOR ME!
Southy

Darkshear

iTrader: (1)

I just did this project myself, and i took a different approach than Iggy or Southy recommended... I used the lineouts from the HU, before the EQ, so I didn’t need a Hi to Low converter... Sure, I loose fading ability, but who REALLY uses it anyway? Thanks SO MUCH to Iggy and Southbound, as if I didn’t find their posts, this would have been 10 times harder.

In the end heres what I did:

2 JL 10w3's in Sealed box
Boston Z6 Component in front
Boston Pro Component Bridged in rear
JL 500/1 for the subs
JL 300/4 for the Z6's and the Pro's
Full farad Monster Cap
All monster cable

I wish I had pics of the install, it was a real learning experience. FIRST, I installed the subs. We mounted the 500/1, ran the lines, tapped the input for the stock sub. BIG MISTAKE. The bass was muffled, almost sounded like it was double hitting or echoing... Very weird side effects, couldn’t figure out why. Then I though it had to be the factory amp causing it. I popped the back seat off and yanked the cheap Blose 100W sub amp and tapped the lines BEFORE entering the factory amp. BOOM!!!! 10 times better... God I don’t know what that thing did, but now the bass was SO clean.

Then we decided to swap the speakers, but not the head unit.... I kept the head unit because the only HU I would ever replace it with is the Kenwood 911, and I didn’t have the extra 2K to drop on a HU at the time. We tapped the low level outputs from the HU instead of using Iggy's EQ bypass idea. The Boston Z6's are the best in the world IMO, even better than the QSD MB's. I wanted the best sound I could get.

After it was all said and done, the system cost me about 3K, and sounded SO fantastic. BUT! I get the engine whine. I may try the bypass, when I get the ballz to take apart my dash again.

Again thanks guys for all your help, I plan to be a regular in here now that I have read through a lot of this stuff and I find I have good stuff to add... look for my Ambient light (BMW like) coming soon!!

TopGum

Update:

Got it figured out. The RCA lines need to be run down the center. We ran them along the door sills. They were picking up noise there for some reason. Any guesses why?

Southbound

Topgum,
Congratulations on finding a cure!

Did they run the power wires down the door sills? If so, that is why you got rid of the noise by running the RCAs down the middle. You don't want to run the power and signal wires together... especially over a long PARALLEL run like that. If the power wires weren't run down the door side... then who knows why the RCAs picked up noise going that route... except that there is a lot of digital noise running on UN SHIELDED CABLES that could CROSSTALK into the audio signal wires... especially on the driver's side where the logic for the memory seats and mirror control and door/window lock logic runs back and forth on wiring.

In any case... If it works... leave it alone.

IN a "voodoo" situation like this squirrely BLOSE system... you have to live by my engineerying motto... "THE ENEMY OF GOOD... IS BETTER" When you get something like this working GOOD, trying to go for perfection can come back to bite you in the a$$ in the form of a blown amp or pinched wire, or scratched panel....etc, etc. There are just too many things that can get screwed up or damaged everytime you go back in and try to make it "just a little bit better"...

ENJOY YOUR NEW SOUND!
Southy

randomwalk101

Your RCA cables is probably not of very good quality (inadequate shielding). Also, there are stock electrical wires running on both sides under the carpet and door silks...That's where you pick up all the noises.

Southbound

EXACTLY!
SB

TopGum

The RCA's are Phoenix Gold. I thought these were of good quality