sergeremi

I had a question on having some audio components installed by a pro shop. I think I’ve found a reputable shop (Rolling Sound – Mandarin for you folks in Jacksonville) to do the work on the car.

I've decided to upgrade to the JL XR650-Csi for the front, MB Quart DKE-169 for the rear deck all being powered by a JL 300/4 amp.

I guess my question is how much should I offer in the way of suggestions and details about the car and installation process (such as install experiences for various members of this board)? I mean I don’t want to offend the installer and their capability of doing work on the car, but at the same time I don’t want them trying to figure out, the hard way, how to get things done, you know since this is a fairly new car on the market (i gt a 2005 TSX w/Nav).

Do shops usually refer to a manual or guide, especially with new models, or do they just feel their way around?

elduderino

I'll take that one.

Shops rarely refer to a manual or guide. For alarms, and radio wiring, they often get a printout or fax from a tech support department, but these do not go into much detail for things like OE amp interface (I know, I used to write them).

Installers vary - some are great, some are not. Installers also vary in their openness to input. Some of them value it, some of them are resistant to it. After years of taking tech calls, I beleive that some of that is due to some installers really not being comfortable with reading. That's not a crack - I think some of them are very similar to my dad, who had a dyslexic kind of reading disability but was a very smart guy and a great problem solver.

So you don't want to give them a lot of printed info to sort thru - it probably won't happen, they won't read it. Too much time "wasted" (in many installer's view). Rather, you want to boil down exactly the info you think they ought to have - pics, lists, etc., with NO extraneous data. By this I mean amp and HU wiring diagrams, perhaps factory manual printout pages, etc.

Use the wiring sticky in this forum for a reference - it was copied from a major mfr's alarm install data.

Oh, and now I'm going to comment on your system. You ahve exactly the amp I have, and I think it's a great amp. But I think your budget is WAY outta whack. Too much on amp, not enough on speakers. Your front speakers (IMO) are not that good, and the rear speakers ditto.

You would be better off with the RCE 269 kit in the rear (even better if you leave off the tweeter and xover, IMO, and use the 269 drivers as woofers and use the xover in the 300/4) and up front, I would personally NOT go with a metal tweeter... but if you are convinced that that's what you have to do, go with the JL Audio XR650 CXi coaxial - because IMO you don't want those aluminum tweeters anywhere near the bottom of that windshield (i.e., in the OE tweeter holes).

Oh, and those JL xovers should be located where the shop will be willing to re-adjust them a few times within the few weeks after installation- the speakers will break in, and with tweeter level and mid "presence" adjustments, you probably won't have them in the correct spot the first try...

elduderino

Somthing I should have said is that I would STRONGLY recommend you take the factory HU interface info available on this forum to your shop. The odds are the shop has NOT done this with this car before. If they have, my bad - but I kinda doubt it. In my area I checked with a number of shops and they all told me it couldn't be done : )

Note that you usually talk to a salesperson, not an installer. Ask if you can talk to the installer that will do the work. Politely ask if he's done the OE amp interface on this car yet, and if not, say that you have access to factory wiring info, and ask if he wants it. If he doesn't seem to be interested in reading factory wiring diagrams, then rethink your involvement, or see if there's a more experienced install manager type around.

sergeremi

Thanks for the excellent advise elduderino!

The amp and rears I got from a friend for $300 (shipping out and had to sell the car fast) and I thought I'd go with the XR650's because the strong reputation they seem to have and they were the best I could get for what I wanted to spend (including installation).

This is my first car with a component set up, would the Aluminum tweeter remain harsh even with the rubber surround and directional mounting gizmo (maybe to not bounce off the glass... if that matters)? I guess assuming they could use that in the dash location. Any recommendations on what might be better up front w/ the tweeters in-dash?

elduderino

Nice deal for that amp!

I am a bigger fan of silk domes... but if you want to give them a shot, they don't seem to be that expensive. Are these around $300? They seem to be affordable.

Set them to the lowest tweeter OP setting, and you can also tame them if need be with squres of clear window tint film on the inside of the glass. BTW, the online manual did not mention depth, so I hope you've verified that they fit...

Since you already own the rears, I would just turn on the amp xover and run them as woofers only : )

sergeremi

Hrm, it seems from what I've been able to gather that the depth of the front door speakers needs to be around 2".

I think the XR650s come in at a mounting depth of 2.8125" Will spacers help with that or am I SOL with those speakers? Oh and the tweeter mounting depth: 0.625" (5/8").

What would be a decent crossover point to start off with for the rears? I was thinking at 120 or 100? 12 or 24 db slope?

elduderino

Mine is at about 75-80. Remember that the speker is rolling off already so it has a rising response up to probably 200 or so... the xover rolloff will sum with that rising response and probably neccesitate the lower xover point... and i would go 24dB.

See the thread I posted on spacers - https://acurazine.com/forums/audio-video-electronics-navigation-22/step-step-making-spacers-door-speakers-286546/

The TSX OE speakers are like 1-1/16 thick, or 1" thick plus foam tape, so I think spacing a speaker 3/4" and then putting foam tape on the front is about what you should expect. I think that 2.8 inches is too deep. I would look for a shallower speaker.

sergeremi

Again, elduderino thanks for the expert knowledge!

That depth seems real shallow! That's from the mounting surface all the way to the base of the magnet, including the spacer? I wonder if there is a speaker out there with similar specs in my price range that would be at 2".

Could you mount the speaker further up (i.e., cut out the OEM grill/panel area)?

elduderino

I don't think there's a need to, maybe I communicated unclearly.

The OE speaker integrated FRAME/SPACER is about that thick... the speaker itself is deeper (not a whole lot cause they use a neo-alloy magnet on that otherwise flimsy 6...) There's a lot of unused depth in the door, just not sure if there's 2.8 total with a magnet that's got a large outside diameter... it might fit.

sergeremi

Thanks eldude, yeah I thought that was the overall depth of the entire unit.
I guess I'll just have to find out when they do the install and ask what my options are in case it doesn't fit.

Are there any concerns that I should be aware of if they try to cram the speakers in? Like the magnet being too close to something or vibrations causing the basket or magnet to bump against something?

elduderino

The one concern you need to look at is if a lowered window glass is too close to a magnet (think 1 mm) and the door is slammed shut hard (think angry girlfriend), bad things could happen. I don't think that's gonna happen in a TSX, but it's happened in other cars.

You always need to accomodate the lowered glass, and that's why magnet diameter and depth both play a role. My 5 is deep but does not have that big around a magnet, and I wasn't even close to any glass.

sergeremi

Oh I forgot to ask, will the installer need my regular key and codes to enable the radio/nav again or will the valet key suffice and after the install i can turn all of that "back on"?

elduderino

Make certain he has the radio code... it's really frustrating to not be able to test your work by listening to it. The valet key gets you nothing - he needs access to both the trunk and the glove box.

sergeremi

el dude,

I was looking at maybe picking up some CDTs HD-62s? I ran into a guy who had them and I was VERY impressed (granted, I don't know how much of his setup had been tweaked).

I was wondering if the JL AMP would be sufficient to power them, in your opinion? The 62s are rated at 175 or 180 RMS?

elduderino

Enough amp, sure. I haven't heard them, but I seem to recall they're real deep too...

sergeremi

They are just as deep as the XRs I believe. I found a thread that someone here installed some in his TL with a 3/4 spacer. Not that means anything but would the door space by similar in the TL and the TSX?

elduderino

No reason to expect so.

sergeremi

El dude,

Sorry to add to the mass of questions you must be getting everyday, but I just wanted to confirm something. Basically, that there's a direct out to the JL amp from the HU without the need for LOCs if I'm just connecting the 6x9s in the rear and the components up front. It's been said in the FAQ sticky but I wasn't sure where from the HU.

The HU pre amp out (2 full range, correct?), those are the two bundled wires coming out from the HU to the OEM amp? And one would splice those?

elduderino

There are two sets of full-range single-ended (i.e., not balanced differential) preouts from the HU to the amp. They are at the OE amp location under the NOT AN ASHTRAY.

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...ht=TSX+diagram

I take a short 1-male to 2 female RCA "Y" adapter and chop off the male end. If you want to heat-shrink the connections after, slide your heat shrink on now.

Then I strip back the outer insulation about 1 inch. I have a center conductor and I have some dielectric around that and then I have some ground shield conductor. Leave the dielectric and strip it back only about 1/2" - this keeps the conductor and dielectric from touching each other and shorting the signal output.

Twist the ground shield material into one stranded wire-looking section.

Take a red or preferably small yellow nylon butt connector (yes, you can solder this, but you had better be really good, and butt connections will work fine if done well) and crimp it onto the shield section far enough down that the shield can't touch the center conductor.

Then take another small butt connector and crimp it onto the center conductor.

The center goes to the signal (+) from the HU. The shield goes to the signal (-) from the HU (NOT the shield from the HU!!!!) The shield from the HU is either grounded or left floating (in my installs it has made no diff on noise).

The reason I use the female RCA ends is that the long RCAs sold for use in cars are Male-to-male - so now you have female RCA ends at the OE amp location that will accept the off-the-shelf RCAs. I strongly recommend twiested-pair RCAs in these cars for noise-rejection purposes.


By, the way, I am now going to vent: This merging of AV forums into one forum has RUINED the ability of users to search for info, because we didn't always specify WHICH model of car we were providing info for, and because all the internal reference links are now broken. There are threads out there for wiring info that don't state what kind of car they are for - which was fine when they were in a forum for a particular car, but when they were taken out of that forum, their value was taken away. When is the model subforum idea going to be implemented?

elduderino

Oh, if I raise my input gains very much I do get noise. I had enough volume with my speaks with my F input gains at almost minimum that it was not an issue for me.

If you have this problem, and a ground-loop isolator on the F RCA's doesn't help (don't put it in the console, try it at the amp, and only worry about the F channels), then you might want a line driver on the F channels at the OE amp location. In that case I would use the same power and ground for the OE amp to minimize grounding issues between the HU and the line driver.

Joerockt put a line driver in his and really liked it, and others have too... but see if you think you need one first is my advice.

elduderino

Oh, signal is in the smaller connector.

B1 and B8 are the Dr F,

B4 and B11 are the Pass F,

B3 and B10 are the Dr R, and

B6 and B13 are the Pass R.

The lower-numbered pins are the (+).

According to the other diagrams the factory shielding is floating at the HU end and grounded at the amp end - so when the amp is unplugged, those shields are floating and not grounded at all. In my two tests in two different cars, it made no diff.

Grab the RTO lead too...it's not labeled here but it's here.

BTW the electrical t-shhot guide from Helm is better than the service manual.

If you want to verify the wires with a voltmeter before cutting any, use the fader and isolate each corner in turn and make sure it has AC voltage on it afterwards...

sergeremi

Thanks Eldude.

So I'm trying to get my head around what you've described and let me know if I'm on the right track.

I splice into the preamp outs, the two full range outs refer to the positive and negative in the A harness or the A and B harnesses (A1, A2, B1, B2 etc)?

So the wires that get spliced into the RCA connectors are according to how they'll interface with the amp? I.E., All positive and negative wires for the fronts go to a pair of rcas and all positive and negative rears go to another pair of rcas? Or do all the speaker lines from the HU get seperated by positive and negative? I.E., Front, Rear, Rear Door positive to one connector and all negatives to the other?


The RTO? That's B7 according to the amp connector diagram?

elduderino

NP

THe service manual diagram labels are misleading. The amp connector B wires are Head Unit outputs to the amp, and do NOT go directly to a speaker and are not directly associated with a speaker neccesarily.

The amp connector A wires are the outputs from the amp to the speaker drivers themselves - tweeter, door mid, 6x9 woofer...

Yes, that's the best way to do it, as long as we are talking about the HU output wires in amp connector B.


Yeah, just missed it, thanks. That wire turns on and off the FM amp and the OE amp, so make sure NOT to short it out, K? If you blow that (+)12V OP from the head unit, the FM amp won't turn on any more...

NO LOCs, no LOCs, no LOCs...

sergeremi

Okay so here's my plan for the budget audiophile system sans subwoofers.

I'm having CDT HD-62 component speakers installed up front, disconnecting the rear door speakers and placing just the woofers of the RCE 269s (thanks for the recommendation el dude) in the rear deck.

El Dude, if I'm understanding correctly, I'll have the installer splice the preamp outs from the HU; the front + and - (B1, B8, B4, B11) will pair off to one set of RCA connectors and the rear + and - (B3, B10, B6, B13) will pair off to another set. Both will feed into a JL Amp (450/4).

Based on the specs for the Amp, CH 1&2 will power the fronts (set the High Pass on the amp at 75Hz/24dB slope) and CH 3&4 will power the rear 6x9s (set the Low Pass on the amp at 75Hz/12dB slope).

B7, the RTO will be connected to the amp how? This is to turn on the amp when the car starts or just when the radio is turned on?

What should be done with the speaker outs from the OEM amp (harness A)?

Any other things I should keep in mind?

elduderino

This sounds right, but I'm not double-checking the numbers... you've got the diagram, which is what I would refer to anyway...: )

I would add Front Left + and -, and Right + and -, and Rear Left + and -, and Right + and -.

I thought this amp was a 300/4? That's not a typo, and the diff between the two amps is significant in size and cost.

I would reverse the slopes - the F xover should be at 12dB, and the R xover should be at 24dB. This helps take more midrange out of the R speakers, while leaving quieter bass in the F midranges... this enhances the front stage effect and helps the drums sound farther forward.

The amp has a remote turn on input next to the Battery + and ground pins. Turn the signal sense turn on switch to Off. The amp will only turn on when the radio is on.


Depends on if your installer is using the OE speaker wire or not (as most installers do). If the installer IS using OE speaker wire, then the speaker wires at the amplifier location will be extended to the CDT xover (for the fronts) or the amp itself (for the 6x9s).

You should keep in mind where the xovers are going. Depending on size they might fit in the center console, which would be elegant from a wiring perspective, but I am concerned about picking up noise there, and if that is a problem, I think a better place is under the pass floorboard carpet against the firewall at the very top.

This is largely a function of where the tweeters are going - if the tweets were in the doors, the xovers can hide in their like Derrick's did. If the tweets are in the OE locations, the xovers can't really go into the door.

sergeremi

No, it's not a typo, I decided to upgrade the amp. Since I upgraded to the CDT components I thought it best to get an amp that would closer match the power handling. I broke the budget just a little bit.

Thanks again for the suggestions and the knowledge! I can't wait to hear the new sound!