Looking for front and rear 6.5's components for my TL. Looking to spend $500-600 for both sets. Any recommendations? I've heard ppl mention Focal, but personally, have never heard of them up until now. They seem to get good reviews. Any others with good places to buy from? I've only seen the Focal's on ebay for ~$350/set.

A little off topic, but how much dynamat is needed for both front and rear doors (mostly just around the speaker) and hopefully a little left over for the trunk/floor. Just an estimate would be nice...

 

I picked up the Focal Utopia 165Ws. I really, really like them. I'd recommend them. I bought them used from a member of Acurazine.

I can't remember how much dynamat I bought, but I had some to spare after covering the front doors, rear quarter panels, trunk, trunk lid, rear deck, and the frame around the trunk pass through.

 

Here's a suggestion:

Just get one set of comps for $500-$600. Like Dynaudio, Image Dynamics, CDT, Focal, DLS etc and if you want rear fill just pick up a set of nice coax speakers for like $100.

 

I have Infinities and they're great....the high end model of course.

I heard MB Quarts are one of the best out there

 

The speakers that you've heard of are probably mass-market brands - Infinity, Boston Acoustics, etc.

Focal is a driver manufacturer - like Dynaudio, and some others - who started selling kits for cars. They are a niche manufacturer - like DLS, Dynaudio, CDT, Rainbow, Seas, etc. - who make their living off of very high performance and engineering, not off of how many sets they can sell to Best buy. As a result they have a much smaller ad and promotional budget - and that means you are less likely to have heard of them. These kinds of companies rarely get featured on Pimp My Ride, for example... : )

If you go from a $300 amp that's 50 x 4 to a $600 amp that's 50 x 4, you may hear a difference at times (opinions differ). If you go from a woofer that's $150 to a woofer that's $250, you will hear a difference. But if you go from $250-a-pair comps to $600-a-pair comps, the difference (when properly installed) will blow you away.

 

very true - I mean Infinity and some other mass produced brands do sound pretty good. But the first time I heard the Focals in my car, I knew they were at another level. The sound is so clear and crisp - the sound is much better than any other car speaker I have heard. Like Ed said, there are the normal brands at Best Buy that are fine, then there are other more expensive brands at some local high end shop that are well worth the money because of their great sound.

 

Save your money and just buy a component set for the front and if you are worried about people in the back not being able to hear, just get a woofer set for fill. you dont want tweeters back there to compete with the fronts.

 

That makes sense having the good speakers in front and average speakers in the rear, I think I'll go ahead and take your advice on that. Will I run into any power handling problems with the cheaper speakers in the rear? If I crank my system, I don't want to be restricted by my rear speaker's performance.

Also, what about running an amp to the fronts and rears....should it be equal distribution?

 

Id use less power to the rear. Not sure what amp your planning on using though. If you use a 4channel you might be able to bridge the front to 2ohm and leave the rears at 4 ohms unbridged. You could also run the rears to the head unit and get around 50w per speaker, but most people dont like doing that.

 

try a dynaudio system 220 (5 3/4 " mid, 1 1/8 "tweeter), powered by 75 to 100 watts (no crap amps need apply. a jl 450/4 with the 75 watt channels high passed to the fronts, with the 150 watt channels bridged to 300 watts low passed to the sub would work very well. jps

 

Hey, I'm a Dynaudio dealer : )

That would work VERY well.

I think that the earlier post about R speakers wans't "put in cheaper ones" it was "put in woofers only". No mids and highs in the back.

 

wow - seriously it doesnt matter if you have full range sound in the rear. I never hear them if I have them faded out a little plus the rear passengers have good sound. Now obviously if you are on a budget, good rear speakers can be one of your last purchases...but some of you guys act like they are the devil!!! IF you are so worried about SQ - then turn the rears off if its just you in the car, but I really cant even tell they are there.

 

They ARE the devil! : )

If you can't tell they are there, then they don't help.

IF you still have to BUY them, they dilute the budget for better fronts...

 

well how are they soooooo bad. There are lots of cars that have speakers mounted on the front dash or the rear deck that fire off the windows - now that can cause poor sound quality for sure because of the reflectivity of the sound. But when they are down in the lower portion of the door - they dont hurt or interfere the front sound AT ALL - and there is no way you can convince me other wise. I know that if you heard my system (not knowing there were rear components) you wouldnt know they were there at all; and if I really messed with the time correction, you really wouldnt tell they were there.

at least we do agree on the fact that you should spend more money on the fronts (because you listen to them the most), but I do think a decent coax speaker set is worthy of the rear doors. I only did the components in all the doors because I got a better deal when I got 2 pair - though a coax speaker would have been just fine.

Whole point is, you just say how bad it is to have full range rear speakers, but you never say why other than "SQ" - well not everyone is building a system for SQ competition only, so there are other ways of doing things.

 

I have trouble lumping Boston in with your typical mass merchant brands. Granted the pro series and the z-reference series aren't in most peoples budgets, but to speak generally I haven't heard another set of more accurate and clean components.

Eld, my question is since no one around here has even really heard of DLS much less try and carry them, how would you rate them against Type X comps and the Boston Z-Ref (I only choose these two as a basis of comparison because as a so called high-end line these are the freshest on my mind in how they perform).

 

Car stereo is not its own thing.

Car stereo is an attempt to install a home stereo system into a car. A stereo system is currently defined as a two-channel, two-speaker system. Although many online definitions state that more than two channels can be used, in reality, only two channels, L and R, are used to create stereo with commercially-available playback equipment.

When you listen to a $25,000 stereo high-fidelity music playback system, it has a L and a R speaker. It may have L, R, and Sub - but that's it. The sub is derived from the two recorded channels.

These two speakers are in front of you. They are not behind you or above you. The entire illusion that they create depends on two-channel sound generated from in front of the listener.

If you read David Clark's site at http://www.dlcdesignaudio.com/ and click on Services and then on Audio Performance Reports and then on Listening Technology for Automotive Sound Systems, you will find that the most rigorous and consistent method for automakers to evaluate a car audio system is to compare it to a two-speaker home stereo system with the listener seated in the "sweet spot". That's their reference. That's what they are trying to replicate.

So what am I supposed to do? Pretend that because a lot of people have rear speakers, it must be OK? Of COURSE it's OK! We live in the US of A! It is their RIGHT to have rear speakers! And it is my right as gauranteed by the Constitution to point out that these R speakers have nothing to do with good sound! Louder sound? Yes! A sound that they are more comfortable with, because they expect it? Sure! But stereo sound quality? No!

A lot of people say that they want "sound quality". Do they really? Judging by results- often harsh, always fair - many people who make this statement are not about SQ - they are about volume, or bass, or buying what their friends like, or buying the brands that are cool. If you are buying a stereo to impress your friends, it's harder to let go of R speakers, I've noticed.

If you judge your stereo sound by the notes it plays (frequency response) rather than the image it creates, then the presence or absence of R speakers may not matter to you. If the stereo image is of crucial importance, then that question becomes important. With older cars, the F speakers were much smaller provisions that the R speakers, and so the R speakers were used to fill in holes in the frequency response. However, with cars that can accept a larger F speaker (5.25 or bigger) this is usually not an issue at all, and there is no reason to compromise stereo performance for frequency response.

I don't use the letters SQ to stand for competition, I use them for what they stand for - "sound quality" If you think that sound quality only has to do with competition, that's too bad. I've seen a lot of highly involved installs that are SQ-oriented that are not for competition at all (I bet those kicks that Ron did for bbb are not for competition). It's simply the principle by which you choose to make decisions. If you make decisions to try to play R speakers for R passengers in positions that guarantee that the R passengers can never experience the stereo effect, you can do so - but that's not about creating a quality stereo playback system.

IASCA rules used to require rear fill to be present to score well. The requirement was eventually dropped. Why? Because it was realized that the R fill was hurting the perception of imaging and the stereo effect, that's why.

Now, as a car stereo salesperson in the past, let me point something out here - R fill makes a salesperson more money! You need more amp channels! You need more speakers! You need more installation labor! If I was only trying to make money, I would tell everyone to get R fill for "ambiance". I don't. Not very rewarding, most people still think they are supposed to have it, why I have no idea, but there you go. Here I am telling people that they could spend less money, on fewer components, and have to install fewer components, and they would have better sound, and almost no one wants to hear it. Probably because people expect cars to have R speakers.

Ive been involved with the design and installation of hundreds of car audio systems over the years. I installed the first production 12V digital surround system in the US - the Yamaha YDSP-1 CES demo car - as well as Fosgate Audionics, Alpine, Clarion, and more. I haven't heard any R speakers that sound as good as the absence of R speakers does. Most of the time the use of R speakers in artificial "surround" applications is simply for effects such as hall echo and reverb. Except for those live stadium concert recordings, probably not that useful.

 

I have been a Boston dealer in the past, and I am of two minds. On the one hand, I've heard some pretty good speakers from them in the past - inefficent, a bit dull at the top end, and hard to install in many cars, but pretty good speakers.

On the other hand, they are a public company with less-than-impressive financial results, and I have yet to see an audio firm continue to make great products in that situation - so I expect their level of performance to be lower from where I used to find it.

 

I've kind of been waiting for this discussion to come up for a long time. SQ is all I'm after in my car--I don't care how it looks as long as it appears mostly stock, I don't care what brand it is, and I'm not an adherent of any set of rigid beliefs.

I agree with Elduderino that my fronts (DLS) by themselves sound better than all four--IN A QUIET LISTENING ENVIRONMENT. If I sit in my garage and see what sounds best, the fronts alone are definitely better than the fronts and the rears. BUT, cruising down the freeway at 70mpg with the windows open and a cigarette in my hand, I find four speakers does a better job of overcoming all that road noise without being spiky loud.

As a side note, another thing that makes a huge difference is sound compression--my last DSP (Sony XDP-766eq i think) had it and I loved it. My current DSP (Sony XDP-210eq) does not, and I miss it. Radio stations do it for a reason--it sounds better in a car.

I think if money were no object, I'd want what ou_sig has: two sets of matched high quality components. For normal listening at reasonable volumes, I could set the fader to the front. For highway driving I'd still have all those speakers to overcome the noise.

But, since money is always an object, I'm not sure. I'd want the best quality sound I could afford, and if that meant no rears so I could buy a better amp and speakers, I think I'd go that way.

 

nice lil writeup el dude

 

As far as the soundstage and stereo imaging is concerned, are these setting only beneficial to the driver, or for the front passenger as well?

 

Wow! i wish my TL got that kind of gas mileage!

 

Oops! You know I meant MPH.

 

Sadly, I tend to agree. What does that say about us as consumers if market pressures sometimes result in less worthy products succeeding over superior ones?

I think loudspeakers are one of those highly subjective products where good branding and distribution (channel saturation) can overpower a consumer's ability to tell the difference.

Of course, part of the problem is that everything is "big box" stores these days. It's not like you can go down to your local electronics superstore and compare, say, DLS to Dynaudio.

 

PS - which is why we need exceptional dealers like Elduderino to help us see that there are truly superior products out there if we're willing to look!

 

jeez Eld, it took long enough for me to finally get you to explain yourself...(Ive been trying to get you to do that for a while now - in my own little way). Anyway, I obviously agree with you with your thought of "true" stereo sound and how a recording is really meant for 2 speakers that are infront of you - because that is how you hear live music - from the front - only.

I just wanted you to say more why your hate rear speakers in cars - I know that SQ doesnt go hand in hand with a SQ competition - but that was my whole point. There really isnt a reason to avoid the rear speakers except for "imaging" problems that could occur if they overpower the fronts any, they wont hurt the SQ at all. but you seem to forget that we are talking about a moving vehicle with anything but an ideal setup for good imaging.

So my opinion is to get a functional, high quality stereo in your car (that can include rear speakers, because maybe your in-laws will ride back there haha), and save the ideal setup for your house where you have many less obsticales to overcome to create a quality sound environment.

I agree with DerrickM, not just because he agreed with me also, but that was my exact thought. When its just me, I usually have the backs nearly off, but when I want to get loud with the windows down or out at my land - I crank them all on. Just for fun. But Eld - I agree with 100% of what you say also, I wish we could debate in person because it sucks talking on the Internet!!! and you seem very knowledgeable

 

While some systems are installed to be alighned only for the driver, most are set up to benefit both equally. However, set up for one person does sound better than set up for two.

I usually run my balance a hair over to make it more optimal for me when I'm driving alone.

Time correction presets allow you to set up one preset for driver optimization and another for dead center. I don't run it, since I'm using a TSX OEM HU, but I might later with an add-on Alto processor.

 

Looks like something i will have to experiment with when i get my new HU!

 

With no "rear fill", what does it sound like for rear passengers?

 

1) well, in our TSX, it sounds really good. The dash-mounted tweeters play a lot of vocals, and on a road trip last fall I was pleased on how good it sounded, and so was the third passenger (we traded out). I don't hear the midbass location as well as I do up front, but I do hear the sounds just fine, and the voice is definitely up front.

2) How good R speakers can sound is doubtful. They are so far back in the TSX that they tend to produce "headphone" stereo (although headphones can sound really good - no offense, Dan : ) That's where you get L, or R, or both, but the center is a big hole. Since for the R passenger the R doors are competing with the fronts, they definitely hear the same sound coming from more than one location - and time alignment for the F passengers is ALL wrong for the R passengers.

3) Screw 'em. How often do adults have R passengers anyway? (At least ones that aren't in a car seat?)I mean seriously? Most of the time when our car is full, we're conversing and the tunes are down. We don't spend a lot of time cruising, and on a camping trip we usually take the CR-V.

 

like Eld said, it will sound ok on some cars with high mounted front tweeters TSX, Avalon... But in mine with the rear speakers off - its pretty bad and hard to hear very good at all because my front tweeters are down my the mids. but in all honesty dont let the rear speakers worry you too much if you dont have the money - my whole point was you can spend a $100-$200 on some decent coax speakers and be just fine unless they are mounted on the rear deck - then I wouldnt even play them - I only say rear speakers are good if they are mounted down in the front part of the rear doors.