fiatlux

Looks like we got our wish and the Type S will be part of this year’s group of cars running around VIR.

https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/sh80rk/join_us_on_feb_7th_for_the_annual_car_and_driver/

Of the cars there, I think the only ones it’ll beat are the BRZ/86, GTI, and maybe the Golf R. Don’t think it’s going to stand a chance against the CT4-V BW, M240i, and IS500. If it was a tighter technical track like Laguna Seca it might be able to hold its own against the IS500, but I can’t see that happening at a high speed track like VIR.

fiatlux

Actually on second though, the Type S doesn't stand a chance against the new Golf R. It's a full second faster in the quarter mile and traps 8mph higher. I don't care how good SH-AWD is, it's not making up for that kind of straight line performance delta.

Kense

It doesn't matter because this car isn't a track car and speed isn't important. Nobody got this car for it's performance, they got it for it's looks and it's daily ability.

BEAR-AvHistory

Featured cars:

• Mercedes-AMG GT Black Series
  
• Porsche 911 GT3
  
• Cadillac CT4-V and CT5-V Blackwing
  
• Subaru BRZ/Toyota GR 86
  
• VW GTI and Golf R
  
• Lexus IS500
  
• Acura TLX Type S
  
• BMW M240i
  
• Honda Civic Type R LE
  
• Audi RS Q8
  
• BMW X4 M and X5 M
  
• Bentley Continental GT Speed
  
• Porsche Cayenne Turbo GT
  
• BMW M3
  
• BMW M5 CS
  
• Ford Mustang Mach 1
  
• Porsche Panamera Turbo S
  

richii0207

It would be interesting to see how it performs. Like the previous poster said, this isn’t a track car as that is what they reserve the Type R badge for. I’m surprised at how many expect Type S and Type R to be on the same level.

BEAR-AvHistory

$1,000,000 McLaren at VIR Lightning Laps

One of the best views of the VIR C&D LL course from the drivers seat. I think the uphill sections especially the S's are going to be a problem for the Type-S. Its a power course & the power to weight ratio is not favorable. That said it will be interesting to see the times/speeds through the corners which should show the cars best points.

fiatlux

I think you forgot the /s at the end :p.

F23A4

I'm interested in seeing how the Type S runs versus the IS500 in a road course challenge such as this. IS500 brute power versus the Type S's handling 'prowess.' (Granted I'm pretty certain the Type S is seriously going to PLOW during hard cornering.)

norsairius

After taking a bit of a hiatus of sorts from around these parts, I've come to understand and realize a few things:

• Folks expecting the Type S to be more Type R level are expecting as much because Acura's marketing really hyped up the TLX's performance, and rightfully so. Real world experience otherwise points to the car being more of a grand tourer suitable for on-demand spirited driving on public roads (this "Type S" to me) than a track car (Type R). That said, it would be nice if Acura could realign its marketing accordingly. I also believe that this dead horse has been beaten even beyond a pulp. Let's move on.
• The TLX in general is a better car than the magazines' spec sheets and some professional reviews let on. Every review I've seen that puts more focus more on everyday livability/drivability (and even to some extent performance) seems to be more positive than those that focus on the spec sheets. I agree with this. I would've never considered the TLX had I not paid more attention to the reviewers that said more about everyday living with the car and instead focused on the spec sheets.
• The TLX is a good grand touring sedan that supports occasional spirited driving very well. Its performance and capabilities are very accessible on an everyday basis and on public roads without getting its drivers in too much trouble. It is not a track car.

As it relates to this lap/track test, I do not expect the TLX to do well vs. its listed competition in this context. I'm still interested in the analysis of the results though to see how much the suspension tuning, SH-AWD, etc. helps the car though (if at all, she is quite heavy). Otherwise I agree that straights are going to hurt the Type-S.

fiatlux

I can foresee the commentary: steering feel is excellent, grip under power is phenomenal, but the brakes get cooked because of the weight, and there's just not enough power thanks to its mass and ho-hum engine that runs out of steam at the top of the rev band. Followed by something about how Acura made a good sports sedan that 's a great weekend warrior / canyon carver, but needed to give it more power and a diet to be taken seriously as a performance car or great sports sedan.

Tesla1856

I think you might have left off the last sentence ... "But it is fun to drive".

BEAR-AvHistory

Its not really competing against all the cars in the list as they break them into groups by price. What really will show is where it will place on the historical list of 300 or so cars that have run LL so far. This is the maidan voyage for a TL/TLX.

F23A4

The 06-21 List (all classes):

Lightning Lap Results 2006 to 2021: Every Car, Every Lap Time (caranddriver.com)

fiatlux

Closest target might be the 3:07.3 from the G70 3.3T. Stretch goal might be the 3:06.2 from the CTV-4 (non BW). Can't see it being any faster than that.

At least on the plus side, the SH-AWD is confidence inspiring and should enable non-professional drivers to get closer to the limit than either of those two RWD cars. I mentioned that during my test drive I got some strong Evo X vibes from this car, and that car was fantastic at enabling drivers to go faster than they had any right to, so maybe it'll surprise us and set better times than expected.

Nexx

I hope that would be the case but remember how long it took C&D to get the most out of the NSX? Even pros have a hard time getting the most out of SH-AWD because their brains have been wired to get the most out of RWD platforms for so long.

leomio2.0

Yea, maybe the last gen Golf R, but as you pointed out, VW did some black magic to the MK8 Golf R and it's substantially quicker in a straight line. It's supposedly better in the corners as well with a better diff.

As for the CT4V-BW ... the Type-S is going to get annihilated by it. When I saw the SG video showing how they poured hours into figuring out how to fit 18" wheels on their big brake application to allow for a greater variety of racing compound tires, you know this thing is going to excel on the track. Meanwhile, you had Acura saying they "beat" the M340i in their own comparo because the Type-S comes standard with 20" wheels. That's the kind of "pedigree" and market engineering that went into the TLX-S.

fiatlux

Don't forget, the BMW only has 2 light elements whereas the TLX has 4 LED light elements, and the BMW offers 14-way power adjustability vs 16-way for the TLX, and the BMW has dual exhaust outlets whereas the Type S has 4. Objectively the TLX is superior. "The Differences are Clear", as they say.

Tesla1856

I know you are kidding-around and being sarcastic, but I've never seen this page before (back to reality for a bit).

This is like the charts they show at the end of their (Acura produced) "comparison videos".

Some of the BMW items are not correct.
Many line-items where TLX-S comes-up a bit short are missing completely.
This chart could actually be helpful to potential future buyers if it was done more accurately.

The car is ok for what you get for this price. Let it compete on it's own features and performance. Why resort to this kind of presentation?

fiatlux

Marketers gonna market.

BEAR-AvHistory

Because they want the TLX-TypeS to be on the same stage & in the conversation with the groups lead power player M340, image rub-off. As most here said they don't care about the actual performance its the "look" that counts. Those that care about performance, know what actually runs hard regardless of the adds & will buy elsewhere anyway.

Based on many threads & posts here Acura knows its customers & these adds are selling directly to them. Basic object is to sell cars. Not many try to do it this way, most cars are sold on their own merits but if they think it works why not. That's what they get paid for.

One of the guys posted that the S would do better on a tight technical track. On the tight slightly over 1 minute a lap technical track @ TH the car did not do very well. A lot of people have taken a marketing phrase to heart with SHAWD as thought it could offset a number of handling deficiency's..

jjsC5

Most cars that they run at the lightening lap are not track cars.

jjsC5

You are saying they don’t want to bring in new customers?

BEAR-AvHistory

Have to wonder. They seem pretty good at repeats & HONDA owners upscaling. They don't seem to be very good at conquest sales. They are also not very good at retention with guys who have growing incomes. When many current Acura customers make a move to upscale they go to the cars Acura's charts & vids claim the Acura line is competing against. Acura might be competing against them but they are not competing against Acura.

Think this comment from one of the guys might sum up how many Acura buyers feel about their cars: "Nobody got this car for it's performance" Where the car stands against the cars that its advertising goes against when the rubber meets the road in actual performance is best indicated by an Acura tag line "The Differences are Clear". Without further yes they are.

After all this time since the new Type S was first proposed its almost impossible to find any marketing material that does not have a shot or hint of a racetrack in it. They have even gone to GCI drift smoke. So the big day is coming, something many of us have been waiting for, head to head on a road course with cars it advertises against.

So what shows up here. "It doesn't matter because this car isn't a track car and speed isn't important." Thirteen? years of "just wait till the Type-S comes out" the Huns will get their butts kicked & Shazam! just before final test day its suddenly "who gives a shit how quick it is or how it handles".

Still having a hard time understanding why guys will spend a significant premium for the Type-S over the top end 4 cylinder TXL if "speed isn't important"

richii0207

Good point. I bought the Type S because it was a complete package that suited my needs (speed, handling, features, luxury, reliability). I get the same joy as I had in my FK8 but now that I’m in traffic more, the TJA along with the ELS system has been a complete joyful experience.

Now if someone wanted speed within the same price range, the Model 3 performance smokes the competition.

Kense

Oops!

leomio2.0

Honestly, after things normalize, if haggling the price down on a car ever becomes a thing again, if you can get a TLX-S in the high-$40k range, it would really be a tough car to pass on. I mean, we paid $44k +TTL on our doo-doo ca-ca RDX A-Spec SH-AWD, so another $4-5k for a car significantly faster while still being a practical, comfortable daily driver ... I could see that being enticing to many.

Has anyone figured out why they didn't simply shove a de-tuned version of the NSX's 3.5L TT in the Type-S? It makes over 500HP ... put some smaller snails on it for quicker spooling to be better as a daily, lower the boost, probably save money on development and have something that's in the ballpark of 425-450HP. I get they don't want to step on the toes of the almighty NSX, but those changes would help justify things a little ... plus the whole fact that it wouldn't hold a candle to the rest of the package the NSX brings to the table. It's a moot point now, but just curious.

MarcoTLX

Acura don’t be thinking 😪

jwtarbaj

It'd likely never fit under the hood and it's not made for transverse layout.

Edward'TLS

Let me put your puzzle to a permanent rest once and for all, so you don't need to bring it up ever again.

The 4 cylinder TLX is a 6 sec regular 4-cylinder car, but the Type-S is a 5 sec car with sport tuned suspension and a torquey V6 engine. The latter is one second faster, much better handling capability, and has a killer-looking appearance treatment.

One can easily spend 2x to 3x the difference in MSRPs, between a top-end 4-cylinder (inline-4) car and the Type-S, in modding the top-end inline-4 car, but still not getting the souped-up top-end inline-4 car to achieve the same level of performance as the factory Type-S. So when you say "significant premium" for the Type-S, it is actually a bargain price for the Type-S with such vastly improved level of performance, rattle-free and factory-warranty-covered.

Sure, most TLX-S owners consider speed is important, but never as important as blindly going after 0-60 numbers without taking consideration of other factors such as comfort, equipment level, technology, fun factor, reliability, etc.

Speed has no limit. Is a 5 sec car fast ? There is always a 4 sec car. Is a 4 sec car fast ? There is always a 3 sec car.

One has to know when to stop and be realistic.

Yes, speed is also important, but not the most important. This is why Type-S owners choose the (1 full second) faster and more expensive and more exclusive Type-S trim (as an overall vehicle package) over other inline-4 trims. All these Type-S owners are more than satisfy and happy with their 5 sec car.

F23A4

If Honda bean counters truly had their way, the Type S probably would have had the Civic Type R's K20C at best.

BEAR-AvHistory

[QUOTE=Edward'TLS;16793723]Let me put your puzzle to a permanent rest once and for all, so you don't need to bring it up ever again.[QUOTE]

Issue just might come up after C&D LL.

[QUOTE=Edward'TLS;16793723]Sure, most TLX-S owners consider speed is important,[QUOTE]

Not according to most posts here

[QUOTE=Edward'TLS;16793723]Speed has no limit. Is a 5 sec car fast ? [QUOTE]

No. was not fast in 2011 when cars were running 4.5/4.8 its not fast now

[QUOTE=Edward'TLS;16793723]There is always a 4 sec car. Is a 4 sec car fast ?

Would say it was fast till the B58 pushed into the 3's in 2020

[QUOTE=Edward'TLS;16793723]There is always a 3 sec car.[QUOTE]

The top dogs on the street are now pushing high 2 seconds. Admittedly they are still pricy but the mid level cars will close up just as they have in the past[QUOTE]

Have no problems with the TLX or TLX-S, think they are nice cars, look good & a competent. Just don't see the word performance being in the description. I was driving a car 11 years ago that would out preform the current Type-S. Am very interested in performance cars but would not spend the extra money to go from the top of the line TLX to the TLX-S. IIRC the top of the line TLX has features & nice stuff not available in the Type-S.

You used the TLX 4 cylinder performance VS the TLX performance as a demonstration of speed. This is a current 4 cylinder car tested in 2019/2020 by C&D in a 3 was comparo It just suggests the TLX 4 cylinder has room for improvement. BTW this list was the second quickest 4 cylinder the quickest did 0-60 in 4.6 & 13.3 @ 104mph

Car & Driver 2019
TEST RESULTS
30 mph 1.8 sec
60 mph 5.1 sec
100 mph 13.8 sec
120 mph 21.4 sec
1/4-Mile @ mph 13.8 sec @ 100
Rolling Start, 5–60 mph 6.5 sec
30–50 mph Top Gear, 3.2 sec
50–70 mph Top Gear 3.9 sec
Top Speed 155 mph
Chassis Braking, 70–0 mph
Roadholding, 300-ft Skidpad 0.99G

BEAR-AvHistory

The NSX was a bespoke engine for that car. Not much commonality with the production engine starting with longitudinal mounting. The Type S is a 60 degree V & the NSX is a 75 degree V. Read someplace a long time back that the only compatible parts were the valve covers & something else.

richii0207

Acceleration is one thing. Driving feel is elevated with all the chassis, suspension, transmission, brake changes. Why do people buy a Civic Type R or M4 when they can just get bolt installed on an Si or M340i and spend less $$ at the end of the day to make equivalent power?

Numbers sell and can be quantified. Driving feel not so much. If all we cared about were numbers, then just get a Model 3 Performance or a Charger Hemi and you win the numbers game.

Have you specifically test driven a base TLX and a TLX Type-S to feel the elevated driving dynamics? For you, it would be like me saying a 330i is basically an M3 without the added power and will drive the exact same if you never get on the gas.

pyrodan007

If it's really about driving feel and not acceleration, the regular 2.0T TLX would be the better fit. It's front end is lighter and has less weight transfer to deal with. The bigger brakes are only to stop something that is naturally heavier due to V6 (something Tesla should learn with Plaid versions ...). Both are not track cars, so there should be little continuous braking. At MSRP, yes the Type-S is a good buy. But with heavy ADM, it's not better than other 2.0T's out there.

richii0207

I am not sure where people get the misinterpretation that a Type-S vehicle is for racing. It’s Acura’s sports line, a sportier enhancement of an established vehicle. They reserve the Type R line for RACE cars. No previous type S was ever considered a “track car”, including the new MDX (before some think it’s also for racing).

I don’t think anyone that understands Honda/Acura’s lineup will say that the Type S is their racing trim. I keep seeing numerous posts about “Type S not a race car” but don’t see any posts implying that it ever was?

pyrodan007

Ask Acura's marketing .... but RIGHT NOW with adm pricing all over the place, the Type-S is not a no brainer versus the regular TLX based on the differences

richii0207

The ADM is everywhere. They are selling Civic Si’s and BRZs for more than the MSRP of a FK8 CTR.

BEAR-AvHistory

Feel is subjective. What might feel good to you might not feel very good to me. That's why I like numbers. Its hard to get good numbers out of a car that does not feel right especially on a road course. Nobody with half a brain is running that hard on the street. On the street a car would have to be dangerously unstable not to feel right at street speeds.

Still I think some numbers are compelling. Look at the numbers in the chart I posted of a 2.0T I4. acceleration, braking, handling all top numbers. This is the car the guys at TH said they would buy before the S. Again subjective.

Have driven the TLX AWD. They would not let me drive the Type-S unless I made a deposit.

As far as handling I know there has only been one timed short track run of the TLX Type S & it finished near the bottom although it did come in right behind the Challenger Hellcat Red Eye. The big Dodges don't do well on a road course. They are 1/4 horses on the strip & traction limited on the street. Handling is not their strong suit. The Tesla Model 3 Performance also came in ahead of the Type-S but behind the usual suspects placing near the end of the middle third of the cars.

BTW The M340 is NOT a race car. Its a high performance sports sedan. The M cars are track equipped. A M340 can accelerate with a base M3 6MT up to about 60/65 before it falls behind because the M3 has no traction but M340 gets buried by the M3 base on a road course

Only thought I had on TLX & LL was whether or not the S will show up with track pads as the cars are supposed to be showroom stock. To turn the question around how many performance cars have you drive hard & what were they.

Don't know what the story is with the Civic R but the M340 & M4C buyers are pretty much a different demographic. The M group are more likely to do Track days AutoX etc than the M340 guys. The M4C 503BHP is a track ready car as delivered. You might be able to stretch the M340 382BHP up to 489WHP with a JB4 but then there is all the peripheral items that go with it. Of course you could stretch the 503BHP to 613WHP with a JB4.

They are both 3.0T but they are not the same engine with mods. Trans is different has a higher torque ceiling. Under carriage is different with a wider stance & different suspension pieces so on down the line. Body is wider, tires are wider 275F X 285R etc. Totally different software & features for performance driving like selectable10 levels of traction control. Two ready custom programs Fangs out & Saber Tooth Fangs out, that can be called up with a lever push on one of the two Red levers on the steering wheel in addition to all the normal Econ, Comport, Sport, Sport+ program settings any BMW has. Normal BMW dash or a Tach centric dash with a console button.

For pricing people are willing to pay for what they like can't really comment as I have had 3 series 4 series, Z & M series. Bought what interested me at the time. With some time 700 miles behind the wheel would suggest the M4C is a much better car than my 440 was or my Z4 is.

richii0207

I’m not sure why it would be important to know what cars I have driven as this is not a measuring contest. I asked you because the context made it appear that you have driven the TLX Type-S and could not justify why someone would choose this purchase over another vehicle based on a spec sheet.

Some “performance” cars I’ve driven, which I’m sure to leave out some, include a E36 M3, FK8, M3P, Shelby GT500, Hellcat (I think? It was years ago). Was not meant to be a flex, but to answer your question.

In regard to the second quoted statement. Exactly. The same goes for a Type S or a Type R over the other trims, there are peripheral changes outside of the powerplant.

sombasol

hold up… you have made hundreds of posts here on how much you dislike what Acura has done with the type S… and you’ve never driven it???? So you are just assuming that it’s worth having a personal vendetta against it?