leomio85

I have a strong feeling that when the TLX-S is released, Acura is going to solely pit it against its last iteration without ever mentioning any of its cross-brand rivals.

Tesla1856

That is why I started this thread here (and requested no Type-S talk).
https://acurazine.com/forums/second-...-specs-989409/
Due to the price and expectations ... The 2021 TLX Type-S really seems like a "different car" to me. You guys say it will have different competitors, and I tend to agree.

Alternatively (on paper) the 2021 TLX 2.0T doesn't look bad:
https://acurazine.com/forums/second-...arison-989525/
But notice, my thread gravitated to a (non premium) Honda Accord as one of it's main competitors (which is fine with me). I've always said ... buy what you like.
In my book, the CVT disqualifies the Q50 from consideration. I've been away from Toyota for so long I thought it was comparable to the IS-350 (not the ES-350 and the chart shows).

fiatlux

CVT? The Q50 has a 7-speed automatic.

Tesla1856

Sorry, my bad ... you are correct. I composed that post too quickly.

There was the CVT in the nice Infinity SUV test-drive years ago and then someone said in another thread that Nissan was going mostly CVT now. I saw "Continuously Variable" in the wrong column.

However, that last sentence wasn't really important to my point.

4G-Lover

What it has to live up to?? The Type S was never the king of the hill where it comes to premium sport sedans...it was a fast front driver, well built and a value offering....it was never an M or even M-Lite fighter

SebringSilver

I couldn’t agree more. But the way Acura is building up the Type S as its holy grail to resurrect the brand’s performance heritage is what bothers me. Don’t say it if you can’t back it up.

lowgrowl

I don't think Acuras goal is to knock the heads off of the big three German brands but to offer a alternative. One that offers a reasonable price combined with good performance,reliability, and a lower cost of ownership. For someone like myself that buys and keeps a car a long time it's crazy to attempt to do that with a European car. But as far as for sheer performance, materials, and styling the Germans come out on top. If your well off and lease cars, then I can see going with one of them over the Acura. But the Honda product is unique in all that it gives you overall.

04WDPSeDaN

iTrader: (1)

Tell that to all the fanboys who drive basic econoboxes that have hyped up the type-s making it sound like it's a 2020 Maserati Ghibli S. You'd think i'd kill them to test drive the competition.. What will happen? Their current vehicles will hand them divorce papers?

Kense

Why do you say if you’re well off and lease cars? You can lease an M340i for 550-600 a month. Financing a $50,000 car will cost you nearly $1000 a month. The type S will probably end up close to costing $60k. It makes more sense to lease cars in this price range. You need more money to finance them.

BEAR-AvHistory

They already are "fastest Acura ever outside of the NSX" Good plan to never mention your competition.

Kense

I think that's a problem. They should and could have came at them hard and tried to do what Infiniti did when they released the original G35. They had the Germans beat and scrambling, that helps everybody make better cars. Put your best effort out and go for the top. Why just settle for mediocrity? The Type S should be a special car not a middle of the road sports sedan. Even if it costs a couple grand more it should be something that has people excited about Acura again. When you're paying 55-60K for a car what's another 2-3 Grand? You can negotiate that price off the car anyways. Make the Germans go back to the drawing board because they feel the heat. As of now they are so far ahead of the Japanese it's not even funny, it's caused everybody to give up now because everybody got lazy and complacent. Infiniti gave up and hired a moron. Acura just gave up all together and only seem to care about stupid SUV's and CUV's. It's disappointing.

fiatlux

The part that I'm concerned about is that even if the Type-S manages to be "competitive" with the current crop of Germans, those cars are largely already halfway through their model run, and we should be seeing refreshed/redesigned versions within a year or two after the Type-S comes out. For the Type-S to have staying power, it needs to surpass where the Germans currently are in order to have enough buffer for the next 5 years; God knows we're not going to get any meaningful improvements at the MMC point.

Tesla1856

I think they know that and are trying to get back in the game. Jon Ikeda talks about "rebuilding the brand".

I'm sure it takes about 2-3 years to design, build, and test a "new generation" vehicle and get it into showrooms. No, the TLX wasn't first on the list. But maybe we could give them a chance?

leomio85

So, this was posted on another thread here:

https://acuranews.com/en-US/releases...150b35c400054a

Seems in their base iteration, Acura is all too happy to compete the TLX against the Big 3 Germans. So, let's not deceive ourselves or sympathize with Acura when the Type S is absolutely paddled by these same companies that they themselves pit their base vehicle against. I have no qualms over the other models of the 2G TLX, though. But, for the money, I'd honestly go for an ES 350 F-Sport ... heck, probably just an Avalon TRD, because I have the back of a man twice my age and I'd give up a bit of handling performance for comfort while having similar straight line performance. The build quality will likely be better as well, judging by the lackluster build quality of my 3G RDX A-Spec. But, I'm looking for more performance than either of those offer.

Back to the TLX-S, it's similarly priced with less performance. Also, you have no idea how reliable this 3.0T and 10AT with increased power is going to fare. They say the transmission is beefed up, but no specifics on how. My guess is it's not a whole helluva lot. I do most of my own maintenance and mechanical work, so cost of repairs wouldn't be vastly different. The thing I would be most concerned with with the Germans is the technical/electrical issues you would need a scan tool for to repair. I'll wait to see how the TLX-S responds to a tune and how the transmission holds up. That and only if I get a substantial discount off sticker will I be looking at the Type S (basically only if I can get OTD for under MSRP).

But yea, again, don't apologize for Acura since they're not only pitting themselves against the Germans, but they have the audacity to go after the A6, 5-series and E-class on their own website. As if anyone looking at those vehicles would even consider a present day Acura.

SebringSilver

As much as we’d all think that a company doesn’t need to tell the whole world what it’s brand management strategy is, I think Acura is a complete and utter failure when it comes to understanding the importance of whisper campaigns and below the line marketing. Mind you they need to have a cohesive plan to start with so maybe it’s all moot. But if there really were people at Acura who know what they’re doing, they could easily take a page out of Apple’s book and see the importance of leaking just the right amount and the right type of information to the public to keep consumers interested. Again, that’s all dependent on having product development that can come up with the goods so, as mentioned, maybe it’s all pointless. But man it would be great if their engineers could be let off the leash and if their marketing department would take their heads out of the sand.

Edit: Sorry, while on that subject, I think I saw somewhere recently that Acura allowed some journalists to sample the ELS Studio system in the new TLX. I mean, seriously, no one buys a car BECAUSE of the stereo system. SMH

4G-Lover

Many 4G owners, including me (and 2 or 3 others on this forum alone), were looking at the A6 and the 535i when we got the 4G, a smaller car such as the 3 Series was not even on my radar...so it can definitely happen, depends on how good your product is for the money, not everybody shop for the badge.

Kense

Isn't this an entirely new engine? What stopped them this time around? I know they can squeeze out an extra 45 HP.

Tesla1856

Looks like ES-350 is only Front-Wheel-Drive ?

Tesla1856

Yeah, aren't these all smaller than TLX (like maybe not even considered "mid-sized sedans"):
- BMW 3-series
- MB C-class
- Audi A3 (I know this one is ... too small for me ).

fiatlux

The 3-series, C-class, and A4 are all considered compact cars and are smaller externally, but internally they're the same size (or larger). I'm not sure what advantage the TLX has. Maybe a larger crumple zone in a crash? Marginally larger trunk (albeit with a smaller passthrough opening).

Fun fact: the EPA classifies the TLX as a compact car due to how small the interior is, even though other cars with the same exterior dimensions are all easily classified as mid-size (some like the Accord which is dimensionally smaller are even classified as full size).

All that is to say, I wouldn't sweat the fact that other cars are smaller or larger. Frankly, I'm not sure why someone would argue that this car competes with midsize cars just because of the external size, when internally it's as small (or smaller) than its compact competitors.

leomio85

Hm, so it is. I could have sworn they offered an AWD variant. I guess I was mistaken. I’d still take it tho. Stick some decent snow tires on the front for bad snow days. Really don’t NEED AWD here on LI, tho it’s nice to have. There’s plenty of people getting stuck in even small amounts of snow because they think their AWD vehicles can overcome their tires that are down to their wear markers.

lowgrowl

I think you guys have unrealistic expectations for Acura. I think their goal is just to get back into the performance arena and generate some excitement like they did in the past. Consider the Legend for example. I never met a single person that would knock that car. All I heard was praise. But it wasn't a car that was intended to blow the Germans out of the water. They have a certain price point they have to stay within and a special client base. The Germans specialty is performance vehicles. so why compare apples to oranges I look at Acura at their best as a well rounded car that provides decent performance, looks, reliability and value in one package. We all know that the engineers at Honda have the capability if they wanted, to really get down in the ring with the Germans. But that would require a total overhaul of the companies niche and image. I think their current approach is smart and right on the money..

Midnight Mystery

That first page. Funny how every NewB always goes all sarcastic on Justin.

That aside. I think the TypeS is pretty much all around a decent car and achieves exactly what it was going for. Acura never really perused insane amounts of performance from any of their previous TL generations. After all, it's still a FWD Touring sedan.

04WDPSeDaN

iTrader: (1)

CheeseyPoofs McNut

True - but if you're looking at two cars and you like them both quite a bit - and one has a killer sound system while the other doesn't - it could play a big part in that final decision.

To go a bit further - as I grow older the functionality and looks of the inside of the car matters more to me than the way the outside looks.

ESHBG

Yeah call me crazy for expecting a lot from a car that's pushing $60K Acura gets ZERO sympathy from me. They have had plenty of time to get their act together and listen to their customers (you know, the people that keep them in business) and ample time to tinker with the brand and image. They did nothing but hype up the performance aspect of the brand and then they come out with this dud.

TVL65

The Type S was NEVER "fast" lol I have a 07' Type S that is a slow over weight boat anchor. Even a 15 year old base model BMW smokes it, hell I've even been beat by ordinary SUV's. And it gets worse in the summer when it suffers from heat soak.

SebringSilver

Fair enough, but do you not feel it’s odd that after months of hyping up their return to performance and such that the first public interaction that they allow with the car focuses on the stereo? Anyway, I’m done complaining. Here’s wishing all the soon to be 2G TLX owners all the best.

BEAR-AvHistory

Think its a wasted effort. At the base the TLX could pound the crap out of the 3 Germans in performance. Reality is it will not matter. Base German buyers are buying the logo not performance. At the performance level at 3900lbs X 355BHP even if underrated its not going to work for them.

Against the mid-series Germans agree next to nobody seriously looking would buy a car with a smaller interior then their own brands smaller car.

Most of the advertising is focus grouped feel good stuff for people who can't/would not buy German to have a just as good car for less money car. Nothing wrong with that its called marketing.

BEAR-AvHistory

BMS will get them the extra 45+ at the wheels with a JB4. Terry is already selling one for the Honda.

Kense

Considering the Type S is going to cost around 60K what you said makes no sense. Don't price the car with the Germans if you don't expect to compete with them. They also were testing the car with an S4 and C43 AMG so again, they absolutely are trying to compete. Saying they aren't is an excuse so they don't get blown out the water. "Oh well they really aren't trying to compete with the Germans". Actually they are.

Kense

It should be from the factory though. I had a JB4 on my Red Sport and even though its a very basic , awesome for the price and easy mod, but you can still blow your engine. There were a few Red Sports that didn't monitor the boost spikes and had it on maps adding an extra 6+ PSI. It can get dangerous if you don't know what you're doing.

lowgrowl

Ok so agreed it's going to be tested against cars like the S4. 340i, and C43 AMG. Why not wait and see how it does instead of bashing it over the head with a sledgehammer. You might be pleasantly surprised. Why is everyone here so negative and expecting it to fail. It almost seems like people have this axe to grind with Acura and hope it will fail. My god !!!!

leomio85

It's not an axe to grind, but every aspect of the car has been a huge letdown. From features, to power, to price and now to weight. Compared to the German 3, it's going to have the least power while being the heaviest, and pricing doesn't make it much of a bargain. Take into account that decent discounts are already available on all of the listed competitors and you'll get one of the competition for the same/less and have a car that performs better on almost every aspect. My '20 3G RDX built in an OH plant has pretty poor build quality, so that's already a tick I'm marking in the 'negative' box against the 2G TLX.

lowgrowl

The Audi S4 has 349 HP and the BMW & MB are about 380 HP. The Type S they say will be about 350. So they're all in the same ballpark. I haven't seen a full list of the specs yet, being that the car won't be released until next spring. I think it would be wise to wait until you know more about the car and actually drive it. It's not right to say at this time that it's a dog.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

probably the most logical thing you've said throughout this whole thread.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

so then, by applying that logic.....

we can't think..thinking leads to speculative arguments

BEAR-AvHistory

Agree its stupid to condemn a car thats not even on the road or 3rd party tested yet. The only thing I will say is what I always have said the advertised power numbers have no meaning they are advertising things developed by the marketing people.

BMW Z4 M40i Advertised 382BHP


On 91 octane gas the chassis dynos are shown 399WHP thats power to the wheels. With a 10% loss in power due to internal friction etc the crank horsepower estimate is 438BHP. The cars run 3.8 seconds to 60 (I've done 3.9 on my Draggy with 93 octane) & 12.2 @116mph quarter miles. This supports the fact that these car do not have only 382BHP. Since thier MB & Audi competitors will run with them it also suggests they are not playing with as low powered engines as the adds would suggest.

The M340 & Toyota Supra that have the same engine run similar numbers.

lowgrowl

Gee Wiz. Thanks for your approval. I just don't know how I could have survived another second on earth without it. LOL !!!!!!

pyrodan007

What exactly are we missing besides the reviews? If the Type-S would be listed today in a web comparison tool, it wouldn't win any areas. Is it worth it to potential shoppers, that's up to the dealers to not screw up the pricing. Right now, it's just meh which is pretty bad for a new sports car.