Tony Pac

Thank you so much for your honest and logical answers. Appreciate it and definitely makes sense. Always feel good and refreshing to chat with knowledgeable members!

jjsC5

It may not be a fair comparison. Does it include the S4 and S5s? Are all the 3 series numbers comparing apples to apples when they separated the coupes out as 4s? Do the Cs include C43 and C63s? Do the 3s include M3s.....

Tony Pac

Honestly, not sure if it's not fair. The way goodcarbadcar categorize the sales are all A4, S4s and 3 Series.

A5 is in a different category as well as 4 series.

jjsC5

While I totally get your point, I don’t think most buyers care about the rear drive issue. I have a close friend who I think is a fair reference. He is a huge car guy and has been for over 50 years. He knows a tremendous amount about cars. He currently has a 2020 BMW M8 Gran Coupe Competition, and he just bought his wife a 2020 911S. Going backwards in time, his cars in the 15 years I’ve know him

BMW M8 mentioned above
MB 550S Coupe
Audi S8
Audi S8
Maserati Quattroporte
Jaguar XJR
Jaguar XJR

I am also a huge car guy and yes, RWD Is my preference, but I’m okay with Audi’s AWD. My last several...

BMW 540 (current)
Audi A7
Audi A7
BMW 550
Lexus GS350
Cadillac CTS
Infiniti M45

Tony Pac

Also, as I mentioned yesterday. I have a few good friends, who are real car guys and they love expensive and fast machines Based on my conversations with them, they refer to Audi a pretty VW. Now to me, that's not an issue but this is what I have heard.

I will share a funny story. 2 years ago, I was at the MTL car show and the Audi rep was talking to me and he was a a freaking funny and honest guy. He was telling me Golf and A3 are the same, go buy a Golf and it's much cheaper and less expensive to maintain....We both laughed and I said you work for Audi, how can you say that lol! Anyway, this is the perception out there. The same when people say why should I pay for a TLX when I can get an Accord or etc.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

^i dont get your point.
it's the same thing as Honda and Toyota...
if one wanted the cheaper car, they would go to Honda and Toyota and not Acura and Lexus, respectfully

pyrodan007

Many companies share parts, if not would cost a fortune. A BMW is a cheap Rolls-Royce, Audi is a cheap Porsche, Alfa-Romeo is a cheap Maserati. Audi has to share from somewhere. Just so happens BMW and Mercedes don't have a lower division. Could also explain why their reliability is a little less due to less pieces being used in the world continuously.

Tony Pac

sorry if I wasn't clear. Yes you're correct.

TVL65

Yesterday my dealer here in North Jersey had 2 new 2021 base model TLX's in the shop. ACURA chose them to prep and then will be released to the press for testing. One was red & the other I believe steel metallic. I was able to get up close with one & I really like it! The interior is definitely an improvement especially the console etc. The body looks sleeker too, the lines are a definite improvement. But will it be enough to sway buyers away from Audi & BMW? It's doubtful because those brands have always been about luxury and upscale status in society sadly.

Tony Pac

thanks for the quick update.

Definitely, it's not an easy job and those German brands have established a different place in the customers' mind and heart. For example, the new BMW 3 series. it's an amazing machine. I had it for 2 days last month and it's quick, tech is great and it doesn't feel like it's a 250 HP car. It feel like 300 lol!

Tesla1856

Liking FWD over RWD (and Acura introducing me to AWD, and liking it even better) no wonder I was drawn to Audi .

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

Porsche also shares platforms with Audi...
As the VAG owns Porsche, Audi, Bentley, Buggati, Lamborghini, Ducati and several other brands

Honda is now in bed with GM. to co-develop EV's.
Toyota has been in bed with BMW and Subaru

I still dont get your point.

Tesla1856

I knew about the VW & Audi connection, but I'm new to Audi, so did not know ... thanks.

Google says this:
Volkswagen Group is Porsche's parent company. Volkswagen and Porsche merged in 2011. Volkswagen Group is also the parent company of various other luxury car brands, including Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, and Lamborghini.

And this:
Porsche now holds the reins for Audi, Lamborghini, Bentley, and Bugatti
https://www.slashgear.com/porsche-no...atti-14545696/

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

VAG doesnt care about low A4 sales, because they are still laughing all the way to the bank

"give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."

the same concept as fiat currency. create fiat currency and you control everything

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I thought people here are saying that you can get $10k off a M340i?

Legend2TL

+1, yeah modern Audi's were only FWD vehicles my first car was a Audi) until the 80's Quartto whose tech was adopted into the 100/200/5000 sedans and almost everything in Audi's line.
Acura/Honda followed Audi with the 2G RL whose SH-AWD system (different than Audi's tech) was adopted to other Acura sedans and MDX. Even the current Pilot uses the same SH-AWD hardware.

steve_97060

go back and read his post, it isn't that difficult to figure it out.

Edward'TLS

No, RWD doesn't have an issue. It is the FWD that has the issue of can't handle too much power on the front wheels.

RWD vehicles can take as much hp as you can throw at it. But not for FWD vehicles. The current technology limit is ~290hp. A (> ~290hp) FWD vehicle will have very crappy handling performance, due to the front tires having to double the duty of steering and propelling at the same time. Sure, Stability Control can come to the rescue, but will also result in a slow car going through corners.

So a (> ~290hp) FWD-chassis sport sedan automatically becomes an AWD one. But a RWD sport sedan can remain to be a RWD car, even with 400+hp.

Let say you don't need all weather traction, and are given a choice. Using your above Porsche 911 as an example, would you buy

(A) 379hp Porsche 911 Carrera, RWD, $99K,
or
(B) 379hp Porsche 911 Carrera 4, AWD, $106K.

I bet most will go for the cheaper, simpler, lighter, and (slightly faster) 911 RWD.

Well, no such luck for FWD vehicles. Buyers have no choice, but to pay for the expensive, heavy, and power-robbing Audi/Acura FWD-platform AWD trims.

Tesla1856

1. Who doesn't need all weather traction on a daily-driver ?

2. Right, but even though these cars only come in AWD versions now for 2021 ...

- 2021 Audi A4 Quattro (all)
- 2021 Acura TLX 2.0T (Canadian)
- 2021 Acura TLX 3.0T Type-S (all)

... Buyers still have a choice. Just buy something else.

Honda430

I live in Los Angeles near Beverly Hills. I see literally dozens of German sedans daily. The A4 is definitely far in the minority. To be honest when I do see them I often mistake them a first for A3s. I have no doubt they’re fine cars, but they simply have no gravitas. With that in mind like it or not from the exterior an A4 is nothing more than a fancier Jetta. Now to be honest I see maybe only 1-2 TLXs a week in my hood. I’ve owned two. A 2015 Tech SHAWD and a 2018 A-SHAWD. Though I loved the look of the A-spec the cheesy center console and too frequently shifting transmission led to my moving on to an RDX that I actually enjoy.

Tony Pac

The Jetta's interior looks better than A4 basic model. A4's top model looks somehow interesting but other than that. It's nothing special. On contrary the A5 and S5 looks awesome.

Honda430

On this I completely agree. The A5/S5 is a good looking vehicle.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

To be fair modern technologies probably have pushed the FWD limit to like 350whp+ or about 400hp at the crank. My CTR makes about that much and it's a thoroughly enjoyable on a race track, eating a lot of M cars for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

Edward'TLS

Just a food for thought.

Back in 2015, Acura and RealTime Racing put together a heavily modified GT-spec TLX-GT AWD race car, to be raced in the Pirelli World Challenge Race Event. Unfortunately, the twin-turbo AWD race car was no match for all other RWD competitors, because AWD was complex, heavy, and robbed engine power. The simple and lighter RWD competitors simply blew the TLX-GT away in most circuits. But AWD had its merits, and the TLX-GT won all wet races.

The following years, Acura/RealTime changed the approach. They gave the race car a slim down. So the heavy, power-robbing AWD mechanics must go. They converted the twin-turbo AWD TLX-GT into a RWD (yes, Rear Wheel Drive) race car. Why RWD, when the showroom stock TLX was and still is riding on a FWD platform ? Because they all knew that a high power FWD race car would handle like shit. This year, Acura/RealTime's GT entrance is the RWD 2nd generation NSX-GT.

RealTime Racing has full Honda factory support and has been participating in GT and Touring Cup race events for 27 years, winning 14 Manufacturers' Championships and 96 race victories with a turbo NSX and mostly low-engine-output FWD Honda/Acura stock and race cars. These race events are all SCCA sanctioned. They aren't run-of-the-mill races organized by the neighborhood. Their experience in racing with and winning with FWD Honda/Acura cars is undeniable, and they know well what FWD cars' capability and limitations in high engine power applications.

In high engine power applications, FWD/AWD is simply no match for the simplicity and lighter-weight RWD counterparts in term of performance.

ESHBG

RWD with good tires and even a little weight in the trunk if things get really bad can still handle surprisingly good in bad weather and snow, I got to experiment with this often growing up in PA. And I am sure with modern cars even more so with traction control and what not.

Tesla1856

That is a good racing-history lesson.

Yes, RWD cars can drive in weather.

Both:

However, the TLX is a mid-sized sedan build to be driven on public roads (with traffic-laws), weather (including rain, snow, and ice). Normally, as a "daily driver" ... going to work, taking your children to doctors appointments, picking up groceries and supplies, ... stuff like that.

The TLX is not a race-car and 95% of the drivers don't have advanced driving-skills (notice the focus on AcuraWatch, Air-Bags, safety, etc.)

Hey, I figured-out Multi-Quote.

SebringSilver

Current 2021 TLX sales = 0.

Would be interesting to see how many of the current members here actually end up buying/leasing one. There’s bound to be new members joining simply because they have a TLX for the first time, but I’m curious whether the loyalists get one, or if any of the naysayers can be converted.

Time will tell.

ESHBG

I don't disagree with you however when looking at the current market and competitors:

• It wouldn't be a terrible idea to nix the FWD and go all AWD like Acura Canada is doing.
• Or offer RWD instead of FWD and AWD.

fiatlux

#2 will never happen because Honda is Honda

I’m a big fan of #1. SH-AWD is what makes this different from a Honda and turns it into a sport sedan. Sorry to those who have the FWD model, but frankly the only thing sporty about that is the looks; it sure doesn’t have the power, and without SH-AWD it doesn’t have the handling either.

ESHBG

Never say never But yes I am sure that the odds of that are slim but if they want to step their game up it would be a great option.

04WDPSeDaN

iTrader: (1)

I went to the Acura dealership I used to work for today to get a price on some items. I asked the sales department about the 2nd Gen TLX. He said they've had a decent amount of calls and walk-in's about seeing the new TLX in person. He said most of which are coming off Lease soon. He said they should have two of them on display in the next week or two. While there, I spoke to a few of my ex co-workers (technicians) and asked if they started any training for the TLX. To no surprise, they are doing the on-line training courses (as normal procedure when I was still there) but only on the base TLX. We all made the same assumption, perhaps only a few selected technicians will be specifically trained for the TLX-S til it becomes a bit more common through the service department. Corporate is pushing for record sells comparable to the 3rd gen TL from what sales told me. No details about discounts or pricing. He said most tri-state Acura dealerships are struggling with sales because of the competition (RDX is still selling strong). He will shoot me a text when they will get the TLX in so I can see it in person and go on a test drive. I cringed a bit knowing that some of the ASE master techs that were there with me had left and in their place are new guys out of trade school. The dealership made labor cuts again and I was told it's been happening to many other dealerships to cut down on the costs.

Tesla1856

Thanks for the report. So, I read your whole post. I think we all feel about the same about what you said.

That makes sense. The 3-year Lease is up and it's time to go get latest model.
Oh, it's all-new for 2021, that's nice. But whatever, do you have a blue one?

It seems much more non-committal to me.
Much less of a agonizing comparing and purchasing decision for a sedan that (even with a down-payment) you are going to be paying on for 5 years, and then hoping to keep for another 2 while you save another down-payment.

I think this helps explain why even Acura Enthusiasts are so critical of the new TLX. I wonder how much the reaction differs is Buyers and Leasers.

04WDPSeDaN

iTrader: (1)

Anytime and thank you for your post. I always appreciate it. You could tell by the way the conversation was, they really need the new TLX to bring in solid sales. One thing I did forget to mention, they are worried about the price on the TLX being higher than what most are willing to pay. Granted, working for sales, you have an idea of what customers are willing to pay. This is what they do for a living. Once you worked for Acura, you learn a lot of their operation. The few users here can knock me all they want, at the end of the day my credentials, experiences and that I worked for Acura holds more value than what they bring to the table. On top of the countless members i've helped through all the different forums. This isn't a personal attack to those members, nor any dislike towards Acura or the TLX.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I understand your point that in the racing world, RWD is king. And I definitely agree. The world's fastest racing cars like F1, Le Mans, etc, all have RWD. Not only RWD, but also MR, the ultimate combo.

I was just pointing that for a street car, FWD can be very capable up to 350whp nowadays while still maintaining great practicality and ride comfort. It's a little different than the GT Class machines featuring the likes of Ferrari 458, MB SLS, Porsche 911 packing 550+ hp with stripped interior, huge aero parts, race suspension, etc.

Edward'TLS

I'm absolutely with you on the point that Honda/Acura is renowned to build nothing but good handling, mass production FWD cars. In fact, Honda/Acura put its emphasis more on handling performance than on class-leading output horsepower.

However, 306hp is currently the highest hp figure on any mass production FWD Honda/Acura car. It is likely the limit for FWD cars to maintain good handling capability (such as emergency maneuver) using today's latest suspension tuning technology. Recall that 11 years ago, the 305hp 4G TL had to be paired with AWD. Honda/Acura will never release any high engine power mass production FWD car that handles like a pig even on the streets.

It has yet to demonstrate a mass production FWD car that can tame 350hp on the front wheels. The upcoming TLX Type-S will have 355hp, but will be paired with AWD.

Sure one can try putting tons and tons of hp on a FWD car, but if the driver applies power while the steering wheel is not dead straight (such as steering/speeding away from danger), the resulting torque steer and/or heavy understeer and/or Stability Control intervention, will make the high engine power FWD street car less than practical to drive.

But not to worry, we will never see such mass production FWD car, because Honda/Acura will never make it happen, not until another breakthrough in FWD suspension tuning technology.

dmski

Why not just transition to SH-AWD for all Acura models and leave the FWD to Honda. This is Acura's approach now in Canada.... They just cut off FWD. With SH-AWD you don't need to put yourself in a box. Beef up the power train and sky is the limit. Plus, it's a good way to drop the 'oh, it's just a Honda plus' image....

jjsC5

You misunderstood my point. My point was that most car guys, or at least an awful lot, are okay with AWD cars that are on FWD “platforms”. That’s was my point with my friend and myself having owned Audi’s. I get that some don’t agree with me, but an awful lot do.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

The CTR is rated at 306hp stock but it produces close to 300whp at the wheels to. In reality, it's more like 320-330hp at the crank. And a quick base tune and downpipe would bring that up to 350whp, which is pretty common. I run that myself plus several other mods. In stock form, there's no torque steer. Now, there's a hint of it, but nothing that would make the car handle badly. The LSD also does an excellent job of applying power out of corners with minimal fuss and wheelspin (the Hondata Traction Control helps a lot too!).

You are probably right though, that there won't be a more powerful mass production FWD car from Honda, as the next CTR is rumored to have sport hybrid SH-AWD.

Edward'TLS

Yep, I got your point.

But my point is that Audi and Acura are missing out the lucrative high-engine-power 2WD luxury car markets (in the Southern states where there is hardly a drop of rain all year around, such as Southern California), having only mostly FWD platforms. When the climate is good, AWD becomes a burden, not an advantage, for a vehicle package. Hardly any of those buyers will choose the AWD option when they shop for a high power luxury automobile. It is not the issue with FWD-based or RWD-based AWD. They simply don't want AWD at all.

The US sales figures are very good indication that, most buyers prefer the luxury RWD BMW and MB automobiles than the luxury FWD/FWD-based-AWD Audi brand and the near-luxury Acura brand.

fiatlux

I'm sure they would like to have a RWD offering in money was no object, but ultimately these cars share platforms with VW and Honda. Building out a whole new platform just to offer RWD cars would be financially infeasible for Acura. They say the platform for the RDX and TLX is all-new and an Acura exclusive, but let's be honest, it's likely sharing quite a bit with the existing Honda platforms. They'd also have to develop a new transmission and who knows what else. Acura just does not have the sales volume and resources to spend R&D money on things like this. Audi might, but even they probably think it's not worthwhile because how much in incremental sales could they really expect? They might steal a few sales from MB and BMW, but the rest is going to cannibalization from their AWD models. Sedan sales are already suffering, and I imagine the number of people who would eschew a crossover because it's AWD and not RWD might range in the tens, hundreds tops.