My4GTL

Im not sure if a thread exists but I would like to discuss SQ, SQL, SPL systems and especially the 4G TL cabin gain. Anyone?

dwest1023

hmm, I m a long term audiophile, but Im a bit rusty. Would about car sound would you like to discuss? I still got my SP meter somewhere in the house.

Six Shifter

Im more into SQ than SPL ... and my 4G is specifically set up to address this preference.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

can you elaborate on your set up?

My4GTL

I have noticed a sharp 9db boost in 25 to 40hz range and a equal drop off in the 48 to 65 range using RoomEQ on line level inputs (no mic). With pink and brown noise volume at 30.
I cant get a decent burp at 50hz even with a tuned test box on a mic on RoomEQ. It sounds like bass in a vacuum. Im sure the els dsp is slightly shifting the phase or is filtering down the 50hz range so as to not resonate with engine/road/wind noise. Im so frustrated. I cant get a flat response out of this car to save me. Im using AudioControl LC8 to sum front L & R and Sub channels to a single mono.
A 32hz test tone makes me feel like barfing after about a minute.
Its insane. Without being able to get a flat response out of this cabin, I cant say I have an SQ system. But it is a low end monster. Im looking for SQ tho. Thinking Cleansweep cl411-dsp is the answer.

My4GTL

@dwest1023
I have yet to sp it with a Tempro. Which meter do you have? I have an old Qwest. Im thinking I am definitely less than 130db. I would guess 126 at 40hz if I had to. My meter is analog and very old. Hasnt been out of the attic in over 15 yrs. I wouldnt trust it.

But yeah I wish I could compare pink noise spectrums with other TL'ers systems.

Brew0360

I'm more in line with Six Shifter. I wanted my system to be a SQL set-up and after many changes I have the best of both worlds. My old thread I started on 9/30/10 using 2 cleansweeps is below:

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...ht=aftermarket

I have changed the front and rear speakers to Focal KRX2s, the center is the mid from the KRX3 (advice from Six Shifter's thread) and the Clean sweeps were replaced with the JBL MS-8. I added a Motorola speaker (connected to the OEM amp -center channel output) is located under the driver side dash that handles Navi Voice and feedback.

I haven't posted any new pics because I wanted to wait until I was totally finish with my system.

I'm sure you can build a cheaper system than mine for SPL and possibly SQL. My only suggestion would be to start with a MS-8 so you have the flexibility to adjust crossover points/freqencies and slopes.

I will post pics as soon as I have time and get assistance. If you would like to see the most recent pics before I post them send me a PM.

My4GTL

Yes I would be most interested in seeing pics of your build. I can send you some of mine also. My interior is all apart now. I just Damplified my trunk lid and quarter panels.

Im going to check out your thread now....

thanks Brew

My4GTL

<A href="https://acurazine.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=7059&pictureid=37764" target=_blank>

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I tried JBL 8 GTO but not enough kick

Six Shifter

I haven't posted a thread about this yet ... spending too much time enjoying the improvement over the factory set-up. Factory HU feeding JBL MS-8, sending outputs into a pair of JL amps - a 900/5 and a 600/4. 900/5 handles the front tweeters from my Focal 165 KRX 2's, the center channel using the mid from the 165 KRX3, and the JBL 10W7 is my sub. The 600/4 is feeding the 165 KRX 2 mids up front and the 165 KR's on the rear shelf using the Focal crossover for the tweeters. My set-up is a bit different from Brews in as much as I've decided to not power the rear doors.

I'd never tried Focal speakers before - I used MB Quartz seperates in my M3 and I ran JL seperates in my CL - but these speakers are extremely clean ... so much so that I have yet to play with any EQ settings made available to me via the MS-8. Here's a pic from the web-site of the place who did the install:



The positioning of the MS-8 in front of the pass-thru allows me immediate access to the rear panel where the input for the binaural microphone headset is which is used in the calibration/setup process as I continue to play with this to get the desired imaging/positioning I'm looking for.

My4GTL

I really like your setup Brew0360. Thats the way it should be done. You have trunk space!
I could care less about the trunk as I have never had a useable trunk in 24 years. All my cars have been loaded with a system so I am used to it.
I am going to have to get the MS-8 for sure. It definitely looks better than having AC LC8 with JL cl411 and AC EQX and cheaper after all. Whats left to do in yours?

@Six shifter....What do you use for dsp?

(edit)woops you posted before me. lol ms-8 NICE!

Brew0360

Only item left is the add a DVD player and tap into the display then use the AUX input of the MS-8 for audio. Also of course, posting new pics.

Brew0360

Man!!! You weren't kidding when you said you wanted SPL.

Brew0360

Did you lose Voice response and Navi-voice? How did you complete the bi-amping of the KRX2? Are you using the Focal X-over for the fronts at all?

Six Shifter

There is a slight drop in volumn when the 'voice' would appear for Navi-voice (I don't use the phone at all). As I really don't use it anyway (except when I recently tested it after the install), the loss of the voice is nothing I'm concerned with. The rear shelf is powered by two channels of the 600/4 as indicated ... I'm using the Focal cross-over only for the rear. I'm using four channels of the MS-8 for the fronts, 2 channels for the rears, and one channel each for the center and sub). If I were running all 10 speakers thru the MS-8, I'd probably use the Focal x-overs all around. However, since the rears are only for surround in the Logic 7 mode, I don't believe I'm losing anything by using the Focal x-over for the components out back, and I believe the MS-8 provides for better tweaking of the fronts individually then the Focal x-over would allow for.

Brew0360

Interesting. I may get rid of the rear door setup and use 4 of the MS-8 channels for the front stage. Should be rear easy for me to make that change.

Six Shifter

plus making any adjustments for the fronts thru the MS-8 has to be better than tearing the door apart just to get to the front x-overs, no? Unless the x-overs for both your front and rears are somewhere in the trunk area.

Brew0360

The front and rear crossovers are under my rear seat. I always put them in a location where I can access them. May need to make a day drive to PA and listen to your setup to see if what I could gain in sql (if anything ) is worth reconfigurating the system.

SeeVuPlay

other than price, how does the JBL MS-8 compare with the Alpine's PXE-H660 ? Both seem to do the same thing but one is 300 dollars more. Are there other digital sound processors out there to consider?

Just wanted to know what the options are, but I think the MS-8 will probably be what I end up with.

Six Shifter

I can't comment on the pros/cons of either unit as I have no experience with the Alpine. Only thing I can say is that there are quite a few people on the DIYAudio forum who have switched from their preferred DSP in favor of the MS-8 (including a rather large groupe who were using the Bit-Ones), but I know of one competitor in the MECA circles who tried the MS-8 and went back to his previous set-up becase it wasn't 'hard core' enough for him.

SeeVuPlay

I found this so I thought I would share it:

Andy from Harman giving more details on the MS-8 and comparing it with the PXE-H650.

From Audiogroupforum.com

"There are lots of differences. First, MS-8 is more expensive.

Some technical differences are:
1. MS-8 includes power for speakers.
2. MS-8 includes a center channel output and a matrix surround processor (Logic7), which is more about fixing the image for the passengers than about reproducing an audio equivalent to a roller-coaster ride. The Apine doesn't include a center output and doesn't include that image processing.
3. The MS-8's crossover is fully configurable. It'll support any system of 8 channels or fewer, including 7.1, 5.1, 3.1, or the standard car-audio 2-channel bi-amped or tri-amped front stage and a sub. anything is possible, since all the channels can be anything, but crossover setup is manual in MS-8. It's automatic in the Alpine, but it's less configurable. The outputs are fixed.
4. MS-8 includes an auxiliary input and a remote control and display which allows you to make some adjustments after setup and includs a volume control for those pesky OE systems that include dynamic "bass elimination" (many GM).
5. MS-8's subwoofer level control is a shelf that's applied to all the channels through the crossover and the bass management algorithm. It'll preserve the impact in the front of the car AND add bass.
6. The automatic equalizers are completely different. The Alpine uses a 512-tap filter, which also equalizes phase and sets time alignment. It also includes some spatial averaging for multiple microphone placements (6). When you equalize with the Alipine, the first microphone placement sets the time alignment and the rest of the placements are used to smooth the frequency response over most of the car's interior. Multitap filters that operate in real time are a relatively new possibility. In years past, multitap filters in real time were only a hope, since there weren't many microprocessors that could process all that information quickly enough. The benefits of usiing a multitap filter are that they can be very precise and they equalize phase as well as magnitude since they operate on the impulse response measurement. For one tiny point in space, they can also eliminate the sound of plenty of reflections, but their ability to do that accurately diminishes in larger listening areas, since the effects of reflections at high frequencies can be very different even a few inches away from the original microphone position. The other important thing to note about multitap filters is that the 512 "bands" are distributed in a linear fashion rather than logarithmically. That means the resolution is fixed across the audio band. 512 taps gives you roughly 40 Hz resolution. That means you get 2 adjustment bands between 20 and 100Hz and 25 bands between 10k and 20k. Multitap filters, by default place more adjustment possibilities in the high frequencies than in the low frequencies because of the linear distribution of those "bands". That's the only drawback. The Alipine allows you to select from several target curves for adjustment after the automatic setup.

One more note about multitap: They are the shiznit for headphone EQ, because the "listening space" is fixed. With multitap EQ, you can add the reflective properties of a completely different space and transform the listening area to a completely believable representation of a much larger space. With speakers, that isn't possible yet because both of your ears hear both speakers and moving your head helps you determine the location of sounds (just like when your dog cocks his head when he hears a sound he doesn't recognize--we do the same thing, it just doesn't look so ridiculous).

MS-8's EQ is different. We also use a spatial average, but we use a binaural measurement system and 3 mic positions PER LISTENING POSITION. That gives us 6 measurements per seat for each of the 8 channels plus a time alignment adjustment for each seat. Once the setup is done, you can choose an optimization for any seating position and switch between them. For frequency response EQ, we make standard frequency response measurements, eliminate the phase measurement, average the measurements), calculate the phase response of the average, turn the measurement into an impulse response measurement, apply 8 biquads (filters) to the impulse response according to the target curve and the crossover settings using a very complicated and sneaky algorithm that I can't divulge because we're applying for a patent. The result is a VERY powerful EQ that can be implemented on a relatively inexpensive DSP for each channel and leave plenty of space to use the same algorithm on the eletrical signal of the MS-8's input for flattening of the input signal. The distribution of the bands is logarithmic and makes a completely adjustable target curve easy to implement and accurate. Each speaker location is equalized separately and, because of the spatial average, the acoustic sum of the channels matches the target curve. Once setup is complete, you can fine tune the car using a 31-band drawing tool. You draw the curve you want to hear and the MS-8 implements it and allows you to audition your changes vs. no EQ and vs. the automatic implementation of the predefined target.

Both pieces of equipment are technological marvels and they both include input channel summing and signal conditioning, crossover and EQ). MS-8 includes more stuff (center channel, Logic7, amplifiers, a display and remote, equalization memory and multiple seat optimization, center channel output and automatic input configuration--MS-8 will figure out what you've connected to the input regardless of polarity), but it should. It's more expensive.

Which one sounds better? You'll have to be the judge.

One last note: Both of these products are super-important and may help to revive the industry and get new customers interested in making their cars sound great while preserving their factory user interfaces. They have both been long development processes with plenty of invention and innovation, software development hiccups and decisions about which features to implement. Both products will require some new thinking on the parts of installers and salespeople about how one implements great audio. Simple 2-channel audio isn't dead, but these kinds of advancements make better listening experiences possible using a new set of rules.

Kudos to Jason ad his team for beating us to market. The other difference is that MS-8 isn't quite finished yet-but it will be.

Brew0360

Thanks for the info but fo those familiar with both products this write up is almost a year old. The biggest difference between the Alpine unit and the MS-8 is tunabilty after the auto equalization. Also the MS-8 allows adjustments on the fly when it matters most (while the car is moving). IMO spend the extra money and buy the MS-8.

SeeVuPlay

Quick question....it sounds like the MS-8 is easy to install....so....would it be just as easy to uninstall? just in case Im not satisfied with the results?

Six Shifter

The un-installation is as easy or complicated as the system it's being installed in. There is a video on the JBL website, which shows an installation into a factory Lexus system. Nothing more than running power/ground wires, and using the supplied wiring harnesses.

SeeVuPlay

Isnt the difference also that the MS-8 serves as an amp too? where as the Alpine just flattens the sound (im learning the lingo). Also, I looked into the JL Cleansweep and it sounded like a good option, but you lose your steering wheel controls or something...BOO!!

Brew0360

Correct. The MS-8 has an internal amp that can power all 8 channel outputs. I started with 2 cleansweeps with my initial install and kept all of my controls. I didn't like that fact that I could not make any frequency changes.

My4GTL

Do you lose any controls with ms-8?

Brew0360

I did not due to the way I have it connected to the OEM amp. You should only connect the front and sub connections to the MS-8. The MS-8 auto sums so if you connect the center speaker to the MS-8 you will lose voice feedback and navi voice. Leave the center connected to the OEM amp or you can do what I did and install anothef speaker and use it for voice and navi.

Six Shifter

It can power your stock speakers, or you can add on aftermarket amps like a couple of us have. It provides the flexibility for you to do either.

islandlife

Does anyone know where the OEM amp is located i haven't looked around too much but i thought i would ask here since you guys have experience with it

SeeVuPlay

i got a quote to install my newly purchased ms-8 a sub and another jl amp and was quoted 350$ . they said it would take a half to full day. is this a good price. im going to get a few more quotes and will also consider doing it myself with some help. would love to do a pictorial documentary to help out the acurazine community.

Brew0360

The price is not bad for a full day of work by an shop. It works out to around $44.00 per hour. Keep in mind that you get what you pay for. Cheap price usually equates to shoddy work!!!

SeeVuPlay

I read that it was in the trunk, passenger side under the carpet of the rear wheel/fender. I took the carpet off yesterday and did not see it.

Does anyone have a photo?

Brew0360

There are threads already addressing the questions being posted. You should use the search feature.

SeeVuPlay

I was in the thread that led me to look for it the amp. I did not find the amp based on the existing thread(s).

Ive already done the search thing and did not find a single pic.

Thanks anyways...

Brew0360

Take a look at pic# 10 of the attached thread. The amp is the silver box below the two cleansweeps (which have been replaced with the MS-8). As you can see the amp is near the passenger side rear wheel well and not under the carpet.

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...rmarket+system

Brew0360

Hey Six Shifter. I finally got up the nerve to remove the crossover on my front Focal KRX2 and dedicate 4 channels of the MS-8 for the biamp setup. What a difference!!!! Thanks for posting your setup. Final pics to come of my ride as soon as the weather permits.

Six Shifter

glad to hear I didn't steer you wrong