SSFTSX

Let be realistic.
HOw can Honda justify billions on Acura which has very limted global presence to subsidize huge separate marketing/dealerships/outside parts/website etc. Honda simply cant afford on less than a 10,000 sales per month for Acura in US for too long. There is very likely hood of changing back to Honda Legend and Euro Accord Luxury like rest of world.
(I need my free Honda grill for TSX). Audi case is different. It has million sells around the world with price per vehicle far higher. I dont think Honda CEO has emotoional attachment with Acura like F1 to resist for one year separate expenses.

CL6

Okay let's try this for the second time...

Again, let's go back to your statement, which you can't back up, that a "Single Q7 is worth 1.5 times MDX."

SSFTSX

How much is loaded A4 2.0T going. Almost 1.3 to 1.5 times its base price.
Why you think Q7 is any different? It is big ultra luxury with more options including 20inch than A4.
If it holds its used prices higher than MDX it means the newer one is alot expensive as Audi depreciate more than Acura in first year.

Wavehogger

I do enjoy being involoved here at Acurazine, so SS if you're going to post so much information can I ask that you please take the time to use proper grammar so that I can read your posts and don't have to go over and over them trying to understand it all with so many gramatical errors. I know we all like to write shorthand, but your posts are just horrible to read. This is not a personal attack, just a request. Thank you.

Hugh9269

You mean they are going bring more Volkswagen Phaeton's to the U.S.? We all know how well those sold. I think VW, Bentley and Audi are now clearly defined market wise. VW is not going to ruin Audi or Bentley sales in the U.S. iimporting more luxury or ultra luxury cars.

Honda/Acura is a world wide company just as VW/Audi is, I dont think they have cornered the market in sales or supply chain efficiency.

You really need more facts to back up your points, sorry.

Colin

No kidding. Honda has practically zero debt. They paid cash to build their newest factory. I really don't think they (or Acura) are going anywhere.

SSFTSX

Nope it will be car larger than Passat. More like in TL Size with Accord pricing. but alot more luxrious and sporty. In suc shrinking market of US. Another Big Player addition will have very big impact on Honda profits. They are also bringing Minivan.
.
VW wants to hit the most most profitable segment of Honda/Toyota. In future scheme of things. Audi will move up market compared to BMW/MB. VW will compete against BMW/MB. while Honda/Toyota will be left to SKoda/Seat

With Current trends. as early as Next year BMW will be throne out from its largest luxury brand title in World by Audi alone. Prosche/Bentley/Lambo is separate issue.

Hugh9269

Are you an undercover Audi press agent?

VW is already in its set market area. Consumers have proved that they are not interested in up market VW from the same brand that makes the Economy class Polo. The new U.S. plant is offering a car between the Jetta and Passat. No knock on VW, they make fine products, just need to work on quality issues a bit. That is one area Honda surpasses them.

Audi is already in the same market class as the BMW/MB. IE A8, S Class & 7 Series cars. There is really no level past them unless you move towards the Bentley, Maybach or Rolls Royce class of automobiles. Those models sell in small quantities. Audi would not survive with those sales levels based on its current infrastructure.

Skoda/SEAT are less expensive versions of VW platforms, which slots below VW. I am sure people cross shop them in Europe along with Honda & VW. They are also at this point are not setup to serve the U.S. market.

I really dont think VW is seeking world domination of Honda. They both compete in world markets very well. Also dont forget there are many other car manufactuerers with strong products seeking your auto dollar.

Colin

Audi has always reminded me of Subaru. Decent product that has never really caught on. They are the bottom tier German brand just as Subaru is a bottom tier (volume wise) of the Japanese brands. Interestingly, each has has great success in their chosen form of motorsports, while avoiding the spotlight of F1, Indycar or Nascar.

SSFTSX

There is economy class MB A class and spartan C180. New plant is offering large sedan.
When you looked at A4 they enlarge it considerably and make it more luxurious. Future A6 and A8 and there coupe versions are much higher end. Similar is the large W12/V10 gasoline engines. RS class will be more powrfull han M and AMG. Audi price will be similar level as competition but it will more upmarket. You can already see this from Q5 and Q7 which are larger and more luxurious than competition.
These brands have notable success in emerging markets. they are going into tier 3 like Honda and Toyota. tier 2 is VW. Audi will be Tier 1 like Porsche/Lamborgini.
Almost similar content as A4.

VW has conquered almost every market except for US. This huge global resources they are piling up will enable them to end Honda. Remember they are very good in merger/acquizition/integrations/cross platform/brand identity to individual countries. Once there factory up and running. they will buy US supply chain and will offer more diverse products and engines. It is a win for US consumers.



I dont see Acura coming even close to this line up coming up. Acura needs coupes/cabriots/sports sedan/sport luxury/luxury/ultra luxury with more options and packages.

SSFTSX

here is another competion. In Sport compacts Golf GTI beats Honda Civic SI by wide distance.
Honda is pretty much dead company in performance category.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...st+page-7.html

PGSberg

[quote=SSFTSX;10258604] These brands have notable success in emerging markets. they are going into tier 3 like Honda and Toyota. tier 2 is VW. Audi will be Tier 1 like Porsche/Lamborgini. [quote]

There isn't enough room here to debate supply chain management or economics 101. Before the demise of the Firebird/Camaro, GM dialed in too much high end technology and over charged for it. These platforms almost eclipsed the Corvette in performance. Something had to go and it wasn't going to be the flagship Vette. Do you really think the Porsche/Audi/VW Group is going to let this happen? Each of the three represent different philosophies and target different consumers. Audi builds too many (volume) cars to try to out Porsche Porsche. In the U.S., Audi buyers aren't nearly as loyal as Honda/Toyota buyers. European-built car labor rates, parts and yes their supply chain don't match the Dr. Demming founded efficiencies at cost. I don't think any mainstream automaker is going after Lamborghini. They have changed owners and been on the brink of financial disaster off and on for decades. The 3 stars keep Lamborghini afloat - Movie stars, Rock Stars, Sports stars.

Hugh9269

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...cura_nsx_spied

Hugh9269

That is not a Polo, but a Premium Small car, big price difference

Every series of cars gets a bit larger every year and offering more luxury features.

We dont know at this point if Audi will continue with the V10, right now yes, but the 4.4 V8 Turbo BMW engine produces comparable HP and torque.

That is too been seen, 4.2 vs a 6.2 V8. Displacement usually wins and cars are more than there engine size. A future test will be involved to prove true to your claims.

The upmarket you claim will still be in the same class of cars. IE M3, C63, Lexus F.

The Q5 is based on the Tiguan and Q7 based on the Touareg. Of course they are upscaled VW's. Still a full market with the X5 and M Class


People, sorry will always cross shop Audi to other brands. I again dont see them pulling away from the competition like you do. It is a very competitive car market and other manufactuerers will not sit on their laurels in the meantime.

Over and out!

SSFTSX

Polo 1.8 GT is premium small car. And it is priced as such. People often make mistake of comparing different engine sizes of VW/BMW/MB. Similar size and equipment pretty similar price.
A-4 has took a big jump over BMW 3/MB-C. and there is no offering for them in pipeline for next 4 years. When ur bread and butter car is at disadvantage. the whole company starts tanking as no money is left for improving larger sizes. Sales around the world is reflecting this reality.
As i said in EU diesel is dominant and Audi has the most powerful diesels. They are not worried about V8. Even turbo V6 in S4 creates 335bhp from 3.0
Audi do have larger engines but it is not marketed to US.
Nope. these are tiny less luxurious cars. New RS4 will blow past them.
Why you automatically assume that these things are based on each other?
First you have to understand SUV. There truck like body on frame like LX-570/Range Rover and than there crossover minvan type like MDX/X-5. Q7 is neither of them. It is in the middle. Its tow capacity/approach/departure angles/water immersion capacity/Road clearance (9.4inch with low profile 20'. imagine tires with more rubber), crawling are in truck based SUV category but its on road performance/quality of finish it beats its competition.


It take time for people to realize that they are not getting any value from other brands just past name. BMW/MB/Lexus/Acura are facing collapse in sales.limited production Acura NSX cannot save Acura bankruptcy. Acura had 20 years to be made a global brand when Honda was profitable. they blew it away. you have still two years to go befor NSX comes in sales.

CL6

So untrue. Every brand is scaling back production. MB, BMW, Lexus, and Acura will be around in 10 or 20 years. Chrysler or GM might not be.

S2000 Driver

CL,

Haven't you and others figured out yet that there is a poster here that is either on crack or about 12 years old?

Colin

And the amazing thing is that this statement is not even a personal attack! If true, it would forgive a lot.....

smsTL

iTrader: (1)

Damn...this crap is still going on and on....

SSFTSX

There is critical difference. VW group is scalling back in EU but it is expanding in BRIC countries. (Brazil/Russia/China/India)
Auto market in West/Japan will be shrunk by great amount.
Renault-Nissan group will survive as they have that special relationship with autovaz in Russia.
VW offcourse. Very strong in all BRIC countries along with Middleast/Latin America.
Chinese brands will be competitor to smaller Japanes bread and butter car. that is enough to destroy Honda/Toyota profitability.
So u cannot say for next 10 years Auto market will be the same. Higher end Audi will destroy MB/BMW/Lexus while lower end VW/Skoda is taking over lowr end MB/BMW version.
The market has fundamentally changed. Only one or two large conglomertes will survive to have enough money for R&D for next generation platforms.
Japan had falling sales for past 20 years. It was only US market that were supporting Honda/Toyota as independent. US market will not only shrink but new big player like VW will further dent them. recovery in japanese sales is practically hopeless proposition. and Chinese wont allow Japanese car makers to dominate there market. so i dont see how they can remain luxury brand in medium term.


MB had only 74000 in total sales in November. Similar is BMW situation without mini. Add to that balance sheet losses from Leases. Situation is pretty dire.

Wavehogger

someone please...

CL6

Somehow I think they will all survive. BMW has a wealthy family backing them up and Mercedes has Daimler and they are still in a strong position. Skodas are laughed at in car magazines. Audi builds better cars than they did but cheap leases are what keeps them going. That takes a lot of money. Most A4s I see are people who can't step up to a BMW or a Benz. A6 and A8 have very small sales overall.

Honda adapts and they are very well placed in the market with the Civic, the upcoming Insight, the Odyssey, and the Accord. Acura will muddle through though the current product cycle will be tough on them because they are building ugly cars.

SSFTSX

Actually they are bringing two new Sedans. One in Honda Civic Size and another in Honda Accord size. It will be with 100% American consumer in mind. I fail to see Honda sales could be maintained in already shrinking market.



Honda/Acura could have muddled through current crises if they werent facing 28% a month sales collapse in Japanese market. add to that unfavourable currency exchange and shrinking US market.


BMW had worst share holder return as they invested all there money in future growth. but since the market around them is collapsing no matter what product they introduce. Share holder revolt like Daimler is brewing. that was 2007 before market collapse of 2008.

Legend2TL

Hey he could also be 12 years old AND on crack!

KeithL

Who says they can't afford Acura as a seperate entity? If you look they leverage the exisitng platforms, TSX is Europrean Accord and TL is US Accord, I assume RDX shars some CRV platform and MDX probably Pilot or Ridgeline. If they couldn't have afforded it as a seperate entity they probably woudl have skuttled it by now. I know it does not perform like they want, but I assume it does OK for them.

SSFTSX

You always bring past which has no relationship with future. Honda President has admitted that Next 100 years will be diferent. (It is too late for them).

If they could afford Acura they would have made it as Global Brand. They have been 20 years in business. They point is separate dealership/marketing and design expesnes for Acura vehicles when sales are such low. It is not that are selling Acuras at Bentley prices to have seperate name plate. they need discounts to move Acura inventories.

They Had Euro Accord/Honda Legend in other markets. They could give some other name to TL. and sell it on Honda badge. I can forsee where they will want to upgrade few Honda dealerships upgraded to handle Acura cars and finally putting Honda badge on them. This is there only way of surviving core activities.

S2000 Driver

Legend,

You have a point -- perhaps even younger!

blakura

msingh

At the risk of getting us back onto the subject at hand, I've been looking at replacing my 2006 TL w/Nav and have looked at both the 2009 TL SH-AWD/Tech and A4 Prestige w/Nav.

I actually purchased the 2006 TL, intending to keep it for some time. I looked at the '06 A4, 3xx, G35, and Lesxus IS AWD and decided on the Acura as it was simply put, a terrific value compared to anything else. I read all about the complaints about the car and all the comparisons before I purchased.

For about one year I was very happy with the car. Then the small things really started to bother me. The old key and key fob system had been upgraded in the 2007/08 models which was one of my complaints. But, having been upgraded, it was not even more dramatic a difference of the old key set for my "luxury" car and the current key fob. I did take the plunge and did the ever popular key fob mod to upgrade to the better fob. That was not fun.

Rattles started appearing from out of nowhere and there was nothing I could do to stop them. Worse, my driver's seat was looking like it had been through hell and back at 10,000 miles. Now, I'm a very skinny light weight guy, yet the seats looked like they belonged to a car that was 8-10 years old. The service manager at Acura took one look at them and said, "yeah those look fine". He went further to say Acura used crappy leather in their cars.

The navigation system stopped giving me correct time in 2007, when the "new" daylight savings time kicked in. I say "new" only because it was well known in 2005 that the changes were coming yet Acura/Alpine didn't bother updating their software. Speaking of software, the Apline navigation system was just plain terrible. Ancient maps, couldn't find businesses that existed for decades, and listed POI's that had never existed. Half the time I consult Google Maps as the navigation system can't find where I need to go. To fix somel of these issues, Acura decided to offer the 2007 map updates for a "discount". My "luxury" car just decided to nickel and dime me!

Finally, the light steering feel started to really get to me. To the point where I was afraid I'd be getting into an accident because of the torque-steer problem and the light steering feel. Note this is *my* problem as I'm just simply used to a different car.

So - there you have the reasons for getting rid of a low-mileage, reliable, dependable car.

After driving the 2009 TL SH-AWD I have to say it's a substantial improvement in many ways. More power, performance, handling, and even better technology. The leather has been upgraded and is supposedly more durable but only time will tell.

The A4 took me back to my 2001 A4 3.2 Quattro. All during the test drive I just kept muttering "this is why I love german cars". The handling and performance characteristics were fantastic. Fit and finish for the interior were great. I didn't even wonder if the leather would hold up - I know it will. The technology was lame. Terrible implementation of keyless ignition, stupid placement of the MMI control knob on the dashboard unless you got the Navigation package, and a lame navigation system that was still DVD based.

In the end, my inclination was to go with the A4 given the driving feel, which for me was far more important, and pay a higher price for the A4. Reliability is not that important to me as I tend to swap out my cars every 3 years or so. The higher price though was worth it if the interior of the car held up better over the time period I have it and for the driving performance.

However, I might end up waiting until the mid-season refresh as I understand a better navigation system might be coming at that time. Since I don't desperately need a new car I can be a bit patient.

I will definitely still recommend that people look at the TL as it is a great car at a very aggressive price point. One just has to make some tradeoffs in terms of what one is really looking for. For me, I've come to realize that I care most about the driving characteristics, which will lead me to the A4.

S2000 Driver

...then you're going to love the Audi.

Enjoy!

SSFTSX

Acura canada sales fall 59%. Is any hope left for brand.

Audi has about 737 sales. No loss of sales.
http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/a.../02/c6152.html


VW has only 2% decrease in Canada.
http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/a.../02/c6276.html

CL6

Nice selective use of stats!

HERNDON, Va., Dec 02, 2008 /PRNewswire via COMTEX/ -- Audi today announced sales for the month of November totaling 6,788 units, a decrease of 25.4% from November 2007.

HERNDON, Va.— Volkswagen of America, Inc. today announced November 2008 sales of 14,295 units, a 19.2 percent decrease over the November 2007 sales of 17,689 vehicles.

Dude you are such a jack it's not even funny!

SSFTSX

I was posting Canadian Sales. Where Acura brand has presence.
We already went throuh US and European sales.

KeithL

VW proved you can't sell an upscale car in the US without a badge to justify the price tag, aka Phateon. The Accord competes with the Camry and to some extent is trying to steal Avalon sales with its move into bigger size. Sure they probably could sell a bigger Honda to go against the Avalon, but they won't attract peope that want a luxury badge. Blame Honda themselves for starting Acura, then Toyota and Nissan for jumping in, but the problem is there is a near-luxury markey now and whether Honda likes it or not, if that want to sell a $40K or more car it will need to wear a badge other than Honda.

SSFTSX

Thats the whole point. Honda is saving money by competing against Avalon/Camry with one car. Toyota has Toyota Crown in other markets. It doesnot matter that much to them.
So why u think they will keep a separate brand for less than 10,000 sales a month distributed among 3 to 5 vehicles.
Phaeton is separate issue. Even if it had Audi badge it would still flop. There isnt demand for Exective cars beyond S-Class/BMW-7/Lexus LS. New Audi A8 will change that perception.

CL6

Because they have a 20+ year investment and killed off some vehicles to make room for new ones. They are in the rebuilding stage now. Talk to me in 5 years we'll see where things are. Right now it's all useless conjecture.

SSFTSX

So do u think just to keep past investment they will continue to sink money for next 5 years.? And they had added more vehciles.

Look there is 4 choices with TL
There is 3 choices with RL.
There is plenty of choices with MDX
There is RDX.
Only TSX replaced Integra. But sales have been falling even from 2005-06 levels. u can pretty much judge that for next 5 years nothing is coming out.
Where the money will come from to Globalized the Acura brand? when all concentration is on saving the core activities. They are facing shrinking market with more competition.

Hugh9269

CL6

Audi is lucky in that they have a large number of models to sell which age at different rates whereas Acura, with such a small fleet, sees the TSX/TL age at the same rate and since those cars are very important to Acura as they age overall sales decline.

Of course Honda will continue to invest money into Acura... there is not only the pride issue but if they do manage to stand toe-to-toe with the 'big boys' there is plenty of money to be made as well.

It will take time to introduce new models. If Acura wants to go for Audi/MB/BMW sales they'll have to embrace subsidized leases which is how a majority of those cars find homes. I doubt they will so Acuras will continue to be the car you buy while the Audi will continue to be the car you lease which is why the poster above said reliability isn't that important... he'll be done with the car in 2-3 years.

SSFTSX

Audi does not have Advantage untill this point in US market. Audi Q7 came 7 years after MDX. Q5 which is real competitor to MDX/RDX is 9 years behind. Acura made most money from SUVs as the are more expensives one as RL sales didnot pick up.
It is just beginning.


Honda hide alot about its plans but market can sniff out alot. Share price still has sell rating despite they cut profit guidance by only 19% which is clearly wrong.

I am afraid they may not have time now any more as market has shrinked dramatically and competition has intensified. They have to offer leases and creative financing (residuals values )to move current inventory othwerwise it is complete collapse.