TL-SH-AWD vs Audi A4

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Old 12-01-2008, 12:32 PM
  #201  
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Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory
This might be of interest

C&D

2004 TL Base 6MT

0-100 14.6
That 14.6 0-100 makes no sense. Edmund's as well as many other magazines got higher. Edmund's with a 6MT got 14.96 @90.71 mph, and Motortrend got 15.1 @ 93.4mph with the 5AT. So there is no way 0-100 could be done anywhere close to 14.6 seconds. If it did 14.6 0-100 it would have been doing the 1/4 in 14.00 flat.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...7/pageId=57722

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/..._overview.html
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Old 12-01-2008, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Wavehogger
That 14.6 0-100 makes no sense. Edmund's as well as many other magazines got higher. Edmund's with a 6MT got 14.96 @90.71 mph, and Motortrend got 15.1 @ 93.4mph with the 5AT. So there is no way 0-100 could be done anywhere close to 14.6 seconds. If it did 14.6 0-100 it would have been doing the 1/4 in 14.00 flat.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...7/pageId=57722

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/..._overview.html
I took a quick look at all C&D numbers to try to be somewhat consistant with the test proceedure. Based on the 0-130 it might be safe to say that although the '09 is the "most powerful Acura ever" its clearly under powered for its weight.

2004 TL 6MT
Standing 1/4-mile: 14.4 sec @ 99 mph
100 mph . . .14.6
130 mph . . . 28.6

2008 TL/S 6MT
Standing ¼-mile: 14.1 sec @ 101 mph
0-100 . . . 13.9
0-130 . . . 25.8

2009 TL/SH-AWD 5AT
Standing ¼-mile: 14.8 sec @ 97 mph
0-100 . . . 15.8
0-130 . . . 35.4

R&T is within 1/10 of the C&D numbers.

It can stay somewhat close behind as long as it have some gear multiplication available from the lower gears, but as it gets into the upper gears where its pure horsepower pulling the car it quickly falls quite far behind the two 3G cars.

For what its worth one of the magazines made a comment on the 1/4 mile trap speed saying it does not get it done in this class anymore to run sub 100MPH quarters.
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Old 12-01-2008, 12:43 PM
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UR comparing AWD Auto car with 6MT. Acura cars gets a second faster with manual transmission. add to that weight of AWD.
The same is true for Lexus GS. i am sure Lexus GS RWD will achieve 0-60 in about 5 second.
One thing is for sure at higher speeds the gap for TL-SH-AWD is increasing to almost 10 seconds at 0-130. So my previous comment of 5 second gap with GS350 was conservative. looks to me alteast 15 seconds gap. TL-SH-AWD is aerodynamically very poor car despite 3.7 litre engine.
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Old 12-01-2008, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory
I took a quick look at all C&D numbers to try to be somewhat consistant with the test proceedure. Based on the 0-130 it might be safe to say that although the '09 is the "most powerful Acura ever" its clearly under powered for its weight.

2004 TL 6MT
Standing 1/4-mile: 14.4 sec @ 99 mph
100 mph . . .14.6
130 mph . . . 28.6

2008 TL/S 6MT
Standing ¼-mile: 14.1 sec @ 101 mph
0-100 . . . 13.9
0-130 . . . 25.8

2009 TL/SH-AWD 5AT
Standing ¼-mile: 14.8 sec @ 97 mph
0-100 . . . 15.8
0-130 . . . 35.4

R&T is within 1/10 of the C&D numbers.

It can stay somewhat close behind as long as it have some gear multiplication available from the lower gears, but as it gets into the upper gears where its pure horsepower pulling the car it quickly falls quite far behind the two 3G cars.

For what its worth one of the magazines made a comment on the 1/4 mile trap speed saying it does not get it done in this class anymore to run sub 100MPH quarters.

Bear you completely disregarded the two (links) magazines test numbers and I'd love the link to those times by C&D. Everyone knows that the 2004 TL even with 6MT did not run the 1/4 in 14.4. ROTF! The 6MT Type-S stock on perfect days and a great driver and run will hit 14.1 but not easily, more like 14.2-14.3. The 5AT Type-S runs 14.4-14.5 so the Base TL in 2004 certainly did not. Go to drag times or youtube and find me a 2004 TL stock running 14.4. I understand what you're saying about the ratios and the weight in the higher speeds but you sound ridiculous posting those numbers. And I personally owned a 2005 TL myself and it did not run the 1/4 in 14.4.
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Old 12-01-2008, 12:58 PM
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Road & Track

2007 TL/S 6MT
Standing ¼-mile: 14.3 sec @ 99.9 mph
0-100 . . . 14.4
0-110 . . . 17.2
0-120 . . . 20.6

2009 TL/SH-AWD 5AT
Standing ¼-mile: 14.8 sec @ 96.6 mph
0-100 . . . 15.7
0-110 . . . 20.3
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Old 12-01-2008, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Wavehogger
Bear you completely disregarded the two (links) magazines test numbers and I'd love the link to those times by C&D. Everyone knows that the 2004 TL even with 6MT did not run the 1/4 in 14.4. ROTF! The 6MT Type-S stock on perfect days and a great driver and run will hit 14.1 but not easily, more like 14.2-14.3. The 5AT Type-S runs 14.4-14.5 so the Base TL in 2004 certainly did not. Go to drag times or youtube and find me a 2004 TL stock running 14.4. I understand what you're saying about the ratios and the weight in the higher speeds but you sound ridiculous posting those numbers. And I personally owned a 2005 TL myself and it did not run the 1/4 in 14.4.
You might not like the numbers but all I did was copy them from the magazines. Found this R&T on the 2004 TL.

Road & Track
2004 TL 6MT
Standing ¼-mile: 14.8 sec @ 96.6 mph
0-100 . . . 15.9

Looks like a good match for the '09 SH-AWD
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Old 12-01-2008, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory
Road & Track

2007 TL/S 6MT
Standing ¼-mile: 14.3 sec @ 99.9 mph
0-100 . . . 14.4
0-110 . . . 17.2
0-120 . . . 20.6

2009 TL/SH-AWD 5AT
Standing ¼-mile: 14.8 sec @ 96.6 mph (Don't forget MotorTrend Jan 2009 - 14.7 @ 97.2 mph)
0-100 . . . 15.7
0-110 . . . 20.3
I see the higher speed differences and that's not what I'm debating. What I don't like is you posting #'s that we can't verify and they are all so different. A minute ago a 2004 TL did it in 14.4 now it's back to 14.8...

But Bear you're all over the place with #'s here.. I'm not making fun but you just posted above,

2008 TL/S 6MT
Standing ¼-mile: 14.1 sec @ 101 mph
0-100 . . . 13.9
0-130 . . . 25.8


And they are very different, though now the Type-S is more realistic than the first one. Can you post the links for the C&D for all the above times that you posted?

Last edited by Wavehogger; 12-01-2008 at 01:16 PM.
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Old 12-01-2008, 01:22 PM
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Car & Driver links

2009

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/..._awd_road_test

TL/S

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...type_s_feature

TL

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...a_tl_road_test


Another C&D TL 6MT test from 2004 or 2004
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...a_tl_road_test

C/D TEST RESULTS
ACCELERATION Seconds
Zero to 30 mph . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2.2
40 mph . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .3.3
50 mph . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .4.4
60 mph . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .5.7
70 mph . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .7.6
80 mph . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .9.4
90 mph . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .11.9
100 mph . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .14.6
110 mph . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .17.8
120 mph . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .21.8
130 mph . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .28.6
Street start, 5–60 mph . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .6.3
Top-gear acceleration, 30–50 mph . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .10.4
50–70 mph . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .10.3
Standing 1/4-mile . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .14.4 sec @ 99 mph
Top speed (governor limited) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .152 mph
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Old 12-01-2008, 01:29 PM
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Drag Times has three stock TL's one a 5AT running

14.3 . . . 99
14.5 . . . 99
14.59 . . 96.8 5AT

This seems pretty consistant that a TL 6MT in stock form can put up some pretty good numbers for its day
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Old 12-01-2008, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory
Car & Driver links

2009

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/..._awd_road_test

TL/S

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...type_s_feature

TL

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...a_tl_road_test


Another C&D TL 6MT test from 2004 or 2004
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...a_tl_road_test

C/D TEST RESULTS
ACCELERATION Seconds
Zero to 30 mph . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2.2
40 mph . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .3.3
50 mph . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .4.4
60 mph . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .5.7
70 mph . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .7.6
80 mph . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .9.4
90 mph . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .11.9
100 mph . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .14.6
110 mph . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .17.8
120 mph . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .21.8
130 mph . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .28.6
Street start, 5–60 mph . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .6.3
Top-gear acceleration, 30–50 mph . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .10.4
50–70 mph . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .10.3
Standing 1/4-mile . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .14.4 sec @ 99 mph
Top speed (governor limited) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .152 mph

The one result there that is truely a pipe dream is the Base 2004 TL running 14.4. The Type-S is pushing it and the 09 TL is pretty close with only Motortrend reporting 14.7. But go look at real world times on Drag times or Youtube vids and you won't find one stock 3G TL's running 14.4. In fact there is a Modded 2007 Type-S 5AT that ran 14.37 @ 97.12 mph. And all the regular 6MT TL's are barely in the high 14's or low 15's.
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Old 12-01-2008, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Wavehogger
. But go look at real world times on Drag times or Youtube vids and you won't find one stock 3G TL's running 14.4. In fact there is a Modded 2007 Type-S 5AT that ran 14.37 @ 97.12 mph. And all the regular 6MT TL's are barely in the high 14's or low 15's.
http://www.dragtimes.com/compare2.ph...onName=Compare!

14.300* 99.000 Stock/Yes Acura TL A-Spec 2004 NA

14.500 99.000 Stock/Yes Acura TL 2004 NA

14.590 96.800 Acura TL 2005 Jairo 5AT
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Old 12-01-2008, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory
Drag Times has three stock TL's one a 5AT running

14.3 . . . 99
14.5 . . . 99
14.59 . . 96.8 5AT

This seems pretty consistant that a TL 6MT in stock form can put up some pretty good numbers for its day
Yeah and I ran my 09 TL at 14.5 already.. So you prove my point.

And then you can watch this 2005 TL 5AT run a speedy 15.56. So lets agree to disagree that there are a lot of variables. And someone commented on his vid that they ran 14.92 @ 95 mph on the same track with a 6MT and intake. That sounds more realistic. I'm done beating this horse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsR7i...?v=FsR7iL7Ilm4
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Old 12-01-2008, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Wavehogger
Yeah and I ran my 09 TL at 14.5 already.. So you prove my point.
Actually you have not, you are playing with a $13 phone program.

Come back with a time slip like the guys who posted to Drag Times, that you put so much credit in, before you noticed the low 14 second TL times.

If you want to email Car & Driver & tell them they are full of shit be my guest, be interesting to hear what they say.

Love you guys & how the magazines are a great reference until you car does not do so well in a test.
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Old 12-01-2008, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory
Actually you have not, you are playing with a $13 phone program.

Come back with a time slip like the guys who posted to Drag Times, that you put so much credit in, before you noticed the low 14 second TL times.

If you want to email Car & Driver & tell them they are full of shit be my guest, be interesting to hear what they say.

Love you guys & how the magazines are a great reference until you car does not do so well in a test.
And that's why I see actual time slips and/or vids on Dragtimes backing those times up.. Anyone can post whatever they want and even fibb if they wanted to.

And if you're referring to me as 'you guys', I love my TL, if that's what you were trying to ask me. You need to count to ten.
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Old 12-01-2008, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Wavehogger
And that's why I see actual time slips and/or vids on Dragtimes backing those times up.. Anyone can post whatever they want and even fibb if they wanted to.
I understand now....the three guys who posted almost the same times & trap speeds to Drag Times as C&D got in their TL test are fibbing. Also C&D is fibbing on behalf of Honda to get more add revenue from them at the expense of BMW, Lexus, Infinity & Mercedes.

BTW: Dragtimes.com is a database of 1/4 mile drag racing timeslips submitted by drag racing enthusiasts. Guess the three in question went to the trouble of faking the time slips too.

Get Real
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Old 12-01-2008, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory
I understand now....the three guys who posted almost the same times & trap speeds to Drag Times as C&D got in their TL test are fibbing. Also C&D is fibbing on behalf of Honda to get more add revenue from them at the expense of BMW, Lexus, Infinity & Mercedes.

BTW: Dragtimes.com is a database of 1/4 mile drag racing timeslips submitted by drag racing enthusiasts. Guess the three in question went to the trouble of faking the time slips too.

Get Real
We all know that magazines will get varied results, heck the 2009 Audi is the perfect example right here in this thread. Two respectable mags got times with over a second difference..

Yeah I really love the 2004 TL on Drag times that ran an exact 14.500 @ 99.00 exactly.. and there is no other data listed such as 60' time, temp, the track.. oh wait they did put the date. Maybe it's real but with results entered like that why wouldn't anyone be leary. Wait, I know he probably just rounded everything off even for us because he's a drag racing enthusiast.

This is so much fun

http://www.dragtimes.com/Acura-TL-Timeslip-2859.html
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Old 12-01-2008, 04:46 PM
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Old 12-01-2008, 06:31 PM
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Although R&T and C&D take their performance testing seriously, I trust their results far more than some drag website. R&T had a complete article on how they performed their testing, the locations, and equipment used.
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Old 12-01-2008, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Wavehogger
Maybe it's real but with results entered like that why wouldn't anyone be leary. Wait, I know he probably just rounded everything off even for us because he's a drag racing enthusiast.

This is so much fun
If he did not send in a jpeg of his time slip as backup to what he posted they would not have listed his time. Its obvious he did not list everything that is on the time slip but the key result is still 14.5 @ 99.

A large majotity do not post everything thats on the slip.

Does posting 14.56 @ 99.04 or something like that make a material difference, I don't think so. What he posted is good enough for government work but definitely not a NHRA national finial.

Beside the AT guy posted 14.59 @ 96.8 which should satisfy your craving for extra digits.

BTW how many 1/4 miles have you actually run at a sanctioned track & how consistent were you in the same car run to run?

Bottom line is his time agreed with a national magazine test & you don't want to accept their times either.
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Old 12-01-2008, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Legend2TL


Although R&T and C&D take their performance testing seriously, I trust their results far more than some drag website. R&T had a complete article on how they performed their testing, the locations, and equipment used.
C&D has run similar articles on numerous occasions. IIRC they did one in the last 12 months but there is no way I am going to look for it.

They were very open about the fact that they really abuse the cars to maximize the numbers, looking for bragging rights among the magazine testers & that most sane people with their own cars would be hard pressed duplicate their test on the street.

Regardless its the consistency of the method applied that counts when comparing different cars which is why i listed all the tests from a single magazine company first.
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Old 12-01-2008, 07:39 PM
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I've raced hundreds of times at Epping,NH going back 20 yrs now. I haven't raced a vehicle of my own there in a few years (my 350Z) but have driven friends cars. I mostly do it for fun but did dial in now and again for the challenge. Though I usually got beat out by an older gentleman who had been running his car for the past 10 yrs and was so damm consistent it drove me crazy! And since you asked I will toot my own horn. I usually had a reaction time between 500-.600. My friends put me behind the wheels of their cars at the track because I could figure out each cars strong and weak points and was able to determine the best shift points, and I shifted fast. 9 out of 10 times I had the best times out of all the drivers of their cars. And I have run tracks in California too and one thing I have found is that there are fast tracks and slow tracks, and you could run that 14.5 TL on one and have it run 15.00 on another. Elevation, pitch, temp, wind, Baro.. So if you want to compare all these Car Mags then you should have them all using the same test car on the same track at the same time, with the same driver, and even still it is always going to vary quite a bit. Take a look at Top Gear, at least they try to use one track and one Stig, though the mystery driver has been replaced from time to time as I've read.

And I don't plan to take my TL to the track. I didn't buy it for pure straight line speed so I will let some other owners show us what it's capable of and whatever the outcome, so shall be it.
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Old 12-01-2008, 10:03 PM
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Its good to hear that you have raced over the years. I ran my first race at E-town in 1960, qualified for an NHRA competition license in a front engine gas dragster in 1965 & was a regular there into the mid 1990's.

Made some runs when I lived in England in the latter half of the 1990's & early 2000's. Have not been that active here in Carolina as its not all that easy to get to the track since we now have a lot of other stuff like grandkids that takes up time.

I am sure you will agree that the morning times trials will put the results of a given car all over the place but within a pretty constant overall range & that generally the times will become poorer as you get into the hotter afternoon elimination runs which is why shoe polish is good for dial ins.

Also the times you might have run the prior week may not be run the current week due to many factors.

This is why i don't understand why you had taken an issue with me posting different times for the same models like it somehow invalidated them. You also said pretty much the same things regarding the youtube films you had. Some cars go fast some go slow thats the nature of drag racing.

The fact that a guy ran a 13.9 quarter in a Corvette does not say that the guy in the other lane in the exact same car can't run 12.4.

Some magazines got faster times then others, that does not invalidate any of the times it just says that some got faster times then others. C&D got the best out of the TL & in the 50 or so years i have been reading it this is not uncommon. R&T usually is very close behind. They both tested the SHAWD at 14.8 but C&D got one more mile per hour out of it. Does this invalidate the R&T test?

You also said that you have not run your own car in a few years but at the same time you said "And I personally owned a 2005 TL myself and it did not run the 1/4 in 14.4" The question is then what did it run the quarter in?

There is a kid here who posted time slips to the 3G forum last summer of his TL base 6MT with a few minor /1mods, CAI, spacer etc & he has time slips of 13.9/100+ without slicks. Why can't a C&D pro drive a well tuned pure stock version to a 14.4/99?

To say everybody is lying because you have not done it is silly.

C&D posted the result, other people have duplicated it independently so it should stand as the best possible result.

I am sure if other magazines test faster/quicker for the SH-AWD then has be posted so far we will hear about it very quickly in this forum as the gospel speaking the word of speed that a 4G can do X is as fast as a 135I & all the other results will be swept under the rug.

Finally an aside on your reaction time.

Take a brand new bill that has the presidents picture in the middle not one that moved it off center. Have a friend hold it by the very edge hanging straight down vertically the long way.

You hold your thumb & forefinger about an inch apart at the very bottom of the bill. Watch the bill not you friend so you don't get a jump on it then have your friend let it go without warning.

If you can close your fingers on it 10 out of 10 times before the presidents picture goes past your fingers you have a faster reaction time then I do. Of course I will be 67 in two weeks so it might not be much of a win.
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Old 12-01-2008, 11:06 PM
  #223  
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Originally Posted by SSFTSX
That is the whole issue. Lexus bread and butter Car is ES/IS. So they play safe with them in respective areas. Acura tried to combined Sport and Luxury into in TL. End result is oversized and overdone sedan with big threat to sales. u can see this that we have only 20 4G TL owners in two months but we have 120 TSX owners in 6 months. So TL is essentially competing with TSX for sales now.
Dont forget we have a recession going in the US. People are trying to save $$$. Gas prices have dropped but the are still fresh from $4 a gallon. The base price of the TL has gone up compared to the TSX, a bit. A TSX at $29,000 car in much more inline with the average car price.

I could not swing $120 more a month for a TL SHAWD. I looked at the TSX and 4G TL hard, but still wanted AWD since I have to deal with Michigan winters for my job and travel.

Still interesting the review of the new 2004 TL:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=1232
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Old 12-01-2008, 11:08 PM
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Old 12-01-2008, 11:11 PM
  #225  
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check, check and triple check.. What was driving me crazy was that you were posting the slowest times recorded yet by the mags for the 09 TL. When I'm sure you saw Motortrend had 14.7. But yet you picked the fastest ever recorded stock 04 TL time, and you were posting numbers so fast that were a little bit all over the place. lol

But anyhow, my TL 5AT ran a 15.1 @ 94 and it was a hot summer day so not the best run. So could a 05 6MT do 14.4 on a cool morning on the right track with me driving.. why not. But that most likely isn't how the mags were testing back then, nor a true real world represtation of what would happen on a day to day basis in the real world. That was the point I was trying to make and I get yours completely.

And now that I know you're only 30 yrs my elder I'm scared to try that bill test! But i'll run ya.
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Old 12-01-2008, 11:40 PM
  #226  
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Originally Posted by Hugh9269
Dont forget we have a recession going in the US. People are trying to save $$$. Gas prices have dropped but the are still fresh from $4 a gallon. The base price of the TL has gone up compared to the TSX, a bit. A TSX at $29,000 car in much more inline with the average car price.

I could not swing $120 more a month for a TL SHAWD. I looked at the TSX and 4G TL hard, but still wanted AWD since I have to deal with Michigan winters for my job and travel.

Still interesting the review of the new 2004 TL:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=1232
Both IS/GS has AWD and pretty powerful engines options. Almost match LS-460. Why Cant Acura gives the same option to TSX when RDX/MDX/TL/RL is AWD?.
They should create 3.7L SH-AWD TSX for $37~$38K. I have driven my 2G TSX at sustain speeds between 80 to 110mph for hours (almost half a day). and still got 32mpg. . .
Aerodynamically car is extremely efficient at higher speeds. I doubt any other Acura or Lexus can can replicate the result. Even Toyota Prius will have hard time achieving that mpg at those speeds.
It is not TSX price but style alone that makes it desirable. Compare it to the bland sytling of IS/ES/GS. TL is just plain hideous.
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Old 12-02-2008, 02:53 AM
  #227  
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The price of an IS350 is about what a loaded TL runs. Adding a bigger engine like that to the TSX messes up the pricing they have. A V6 is coming to the TSX but I hope it is a smaller V6. A larger motor requires AWD which bumps up the price.

Lexus has better advertising, nicer dealers, and a better experience for the owner... they can charge more.
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Old 12-02-2008, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by SSFTSX
Both IS/GS has AWD and pretty powerful engines options. Almost match LS-460. Why Cant Acura gives the same option to TSX when RDX/MDX/TL/RL is AWD?.
They should create 3.7L SH-AWD TSX for $37~$38K. I have driven my 2G TSX at sustain speeds between 80 to 110mph for hours (almost half a day). and still got 32mpg. . .
Aerodynamically car is extremely efficient at higher speeds. I doubt any other Acura or Lexus can can replicate the result. Even Toyota Prius will have hard time achieving that mpg at those speeds.
It is not TSX price but style alone that makes it desirable. Compare it to the bland sytling of IS/ES/GS. TL is just plain hideous.
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Old 12-03-2008, 12:47 AM
  #229  
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http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/d...audi_a4_dp.pdf

here you go. A4 3.2quattor tested by road&track at $47K with navigation.

tested weight 4015 lbs. The heaviest in sports sedans.

0.90g, 69.1 mph slolam.
0-60 in 6.2 sec
quarter mile 14.6 sec@97.8 mph.
0-100 in 15.5 sec
0-120 in 23.4sec.
Outstanding result for such heavy AWD sedan from 3.2 litre engine.
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Old 12-03-2008, 02:32 AM
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Originally Posted by SSFTSX
http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/d...audi_a4_dp.pdf

here you go. A4 3.2quattor tested by road&track at $47K with navigation.

tested weight 4015 lbs. The heaviest in sports sedans.

0.90g, 69.1 mph slolam.
0-60 in 6.2 sec
quarter mile 14.6 sec@97.8 mph.
0-100 in 15.5 sec
0-120 in 23.4sec.
Outstanding result for such heavy AWD sedan from 3.2 litre engine.
Those are impressive numbers when compared to the TL and others in its class when you factor in everything.

I would love to see the 3.2L on a dyno to see what it really produces being the Germans are famous for under ratting their engines.

The slalom numbers are pretty good too being they did it on 18" wheels rather than the optional 19" HPT that Audi offers.
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Old 12-03-2008, 07:40 AM
  #231  
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2009 Acura TL vs. 2009 Audi A4: Part 1
Tough times in the auto biz are giving entry-level luxury cars more relevance than ever. Among the brands that sell them, nameplates like the BMW 3 Series and Infiniti G comprise more than two-fifths of those manufacturers’ sales — and with premium brands tanking as fast as the rest of the industry, that share is likely to go up. Among this year’s crop are two redesigned mainstays, the Acura TL and Audi A4. Both offer all-wheel drive, strong V-6 engines and larger dimensions than their predecessors, but beyond that their personalities differ. Acura heads the way of brute performance and nervy styling, while Audi sticks to classic proportions and interior quality.

In our initial drives, both models earned high praise from the reviewer team — Kelsey Mays in the A4 and David Thomas in the TL. For round deux, we procured two jet-black examples: an A4 3.2 Quattro and a TL SH-AWD. Both test cars had six-cylinder engines, all-wheel drive and automatic transmissions, and as luck would have it, the prices lined up nicely. Well-equipped but not brimming with options, our A4 stickered at $40,400, while our preproduction TL came loaded to the hilt for $42,235. Editors Joe Bruzek and Kelsey Mays put both to the test in a variety of pavement and weather conditions, and they offer their impressions in a two-part series.

Styling

Styling had us split. Right away, the TL’s Roethlisbergeran dimensions dwarf its Audi rival: At 195 inches, it’s even longer than a Honda Pilot, making it easily longer, wider and taller than the A4. It looks louder, too: The shielded grille and bunker-slot headlamps make Acura’s redesigned TSX look downright quaint, and the tail simply defies description.

The A4’s lines are easier to follow, with sharp-looking LED running lights and a nicely sorted, if conservative, tail. The only major sticking point is Audi’s double-decker grille, but it’s been around long enough that we’ve grown fairly accustomed to it.

Deliberations ran hot. One editor lauded the TL’s bold road presence over Audi’s blend-into-traffic shape. The other preferred the A4’s stately lines over the TL’s left-field goings-on. Fists were thrown and Facebook hate-groups formed. In the end we agreed to disagree, calling it a tentative draw. Bah.

Winner: Tie

Performance

With our testers configured to varying levels, deciding which one better suited the sporting driver was a no-brainer. The TL with its Super-Handling All-Wheel Drive system rocks the A4’s Quattro in the corners and offers more grip on curvy on-ramps; at times it even performs with rear-wheel-drive-like balance, something we can’t say for the nose-heavy Audi. Where the A4 starts to drift wide mid-corner, the TL digs for more traction and continues to grip.

The less-powerful and slightly lighter A4, by contrast, has the right power curve and transmission gearing to walk away from the TL in a straight line — this despite the TL making 305 hp versus the Audi’s 265 hp.

For those who don’t need to tackle corners and carve on-ramps, the A4 would be a better pick, with an all-wheel-drive system that’s more at home digging through foul weather. The A4 offers a comfier driving experience, with flat-cushioned seats (the TL SH-AWD has heavily bolstered buckets) as well as easier steering and braking efforts.

Accelerator, braking and steering response are all more precise in the TL, but the tradeoff comes in more road noise. Wind noise, curiously, seems higher in the A4 than the TL. It’s worth noting that our TL SH-AWD tester is essentially the sportiest TL you can get for 2009, whereas our A4 lacked Audi’s S-line sport package. But with nearly identical as-tested prices, adding anything would surely bump the A4’s as-tested price well past the TL’s.

Winner: TL

Interior & Gadgets

If Acura dominates performance, Audi wins on the inside. The TL boasts decent materials and, characteristic of Honda/Acura, some of the best-feeling buttons in any car at any price. But the whole layout seems a bit gratuitous: The steering wheel and center dash have enough controls to pilot an Airbus. The dashboard goes overboard with oddly grained surfaces and plasticky silver trim. The glove compartment and lower door panels trade the previous TL’s soft-touch plastics for harder surfaces, and areas from the steering wheel hub to the overhead sunglass holder feel low-rent for a $40,000 car.

Some TL high points: The seats, especially in back, are roomier than Audi’s. From Pink Floyd to People Under the Stairs, the TL’s optional 10-speaker ELS surround-sound stereo trounces the A4’s 10-speaker system. No doubt Audi’s 14-speaker Bang & Olufsen option would give ELS some serious competition — we’ve experienced it elsewhere, and it’s flat-out terrific — but it would also bump up the Audi’s price by thousands of dollars.

Which brings us to the A4. It’s an exercise in buttoned-down elegance, loaded with premium materials, supportive seats and tastefully styled controls, marred only by a wriggly turn signal here or uneven window switch there. One editor found Audi’s MMI much easier to use than Acura’s knob-based interface, and the A4 won lots of consistent small points thanks to conveniences like a folding backseat without a dangling center seat belt (it’s anchored in the seatback), one-touch operation for all four windows (the TL only has one-touch windows in front), and a height-adjustable center armrest. Add it all up, and Ingolstadt took home the interior contest by a fair margin.

Winner:
A4
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2...cura-tl-v.html

2009 Acura TL vs. 2009 Audi A4: Part 2
Yesterday we introduced our latest comparison, between the redesigned Audi A4 and Acura TL. In our comparison, these competing luxury cars are similarly priced around the $40,000 mark, which made for a perfect matchup of which car offers the most for the money. Perceived value will of course be in the eye of the buyer, and both cars we tested had their own merits. In the end, though, there can be only one Highlander … er, winner.

The A4 provided an upscale interior experience with finer materials and more precise build quality. While our preproduction TL lacked such finesse, it offered more gadgets, interior room and a sportier performance for less dough, earning the value-winner nod.

Throughout our Audi A4 and Acura TL drive, we kept bringing up “what ifs” for the Audi’s somewhat lackluster driving performance compared to the sporty TL SH-AWD. What if it had the optional sportier tires, or what if it had the optional stiffer suspension, or what if it were the S-line model?

In the end, those options would have put the Audi out of the price range we targeted. On top of the performance items, the TL also gave us a navigation system with a rearview camera and smart key ignition and entry, plus it’s a larger car with more interior room. Navigation with a rearview camera on the A4 is a $2,500 option, while a smart key option is only available on the highest, Prestige trim level, which starts at $43,300 with the six-cylinder engine.

The A4’s interior may have offered less room, especially in the backseat, but the Audi had 16.9 cubic feet of trunk space, compared to the TL’s 12.5 cubic feet. The Audi also has a 60/40-split folding rear seat instead of the TL’s smaller rear pass-thru, giving the A4 more cargo versatility. In the end, though, Acura’s combination of handling prowess and value for the money outpaced the A4’s strengths. The TL wins this one.

2009 Audi A4 sedan 3.2 Quattro: $40,000
Ash Almond Beige interior: $400
Total: $40,400

2009 Acura TL SH-AWD: $38,505
Technology Package: $3,730
Total: $42,235

Overall winner: Acura TL
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2...cura-tl-1.html
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Old 12-03-2008, 08:13 AM
  #232  
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Originally Posted by CL6
The price of an IS350 is about what a loaded TL runs. Adding a bigger engine like that to the TSX messes up the pricing they have. A V6 is coming to the TSX but I hope it is a smaller V6. A larger motor requires AWD which bumps up the price.

Lexus has better advertising, nicer dealers, and a better experience for the owner... they can charge more.
TSX 4cylinder weight is 3450lbs. With V6 and SH-AWD. It can easily reach 3800lbs. There is no point at weak engine.
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Old 12-03-2008, 08:16 AM
  #233  
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Originally Posted by Mansa24
2009 Acura TL vs. 2009 Audi A4: Part 1

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2...cura-tl-v.html

2009 Acura TL vs. 2009 Audi A4: Part 2

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2...cura-tl-1.html
How can A4 and TL become a tie in Styling but not tie in performance where there is split second difference.
Audi A4 got three stars for styling from Motortrend but TL got only One Star. A4 styling is universally praised. It is certainly not a tie.
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Old 12-03-2008, 09:47 AM
  #234  
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So basically this particular review found that the TL was the better overall value. Interesting.
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Old 12-03-2008, 10:04 AM
  #235  
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Originally Posted by SSFTSX
How can A4 and TL become a tie in Styling but not tie in performance where there is split second difference.
Audi A4 got three stars for styling from Motortrend but TL got only One Star. A4 styling is universally praised. It is certainly not a tie.
It was probably due to the driving dynamics of the SH-AWD, the first paragraph

"With our testers configured to varying levels, deciding which one better suited the sporting driver was a no-brainer. The TL with its Super-Handling All-Wheel Drive system rocks the A4’s Quattro in the corners and offers more grip on curvy on-ramps; at times it even performs with rear-wheel-drive-like balance, something we can’t say for the nose-heavy Audi. Where the A4 starts to drift wide mid-corner, the TL digs for more traction and continues to grip."

Those acceleration numbers of the A4 3.2L are still very impressive considering the weight and HP/Tor.
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Old 12-03-2008, 10:16 AM
  #236  
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***BEGIN RANT***

I am SO BORED reading posts about Audis on an Acura board.

I bought a brand new Audi once -- it was the most unreliable piece of garbage I've ever owned -- and compelled me to purchase an Acura. I've been a happy Acura owner ever since.

I don't understand the mindset here: it would make a lot more sense for Audi enthusiasts to spend time posting about Audis on Audi boards than on Acurazine.

***END RANT***
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Old 12-03-2008, 01:36 PM
  #237  
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SS still going at it....im amazed...only car thread ive ever seen talking about supply and demand on the other side of the globe....dude u gotta let it die...all the subjective opinions in the world are not going to save the Audi from being exactly what it is: overpriced, underpowered, good-handling-for-its-class AWD sedan.

Is the new A4 good? You bet. Is it on par with the Acura? nope. All roads point to a TL advantage...styling alone , which is 100% subjective, the Acura is the best value, class leader, end of story. Not that that should shock most of the people who own it. Prob one of the main reasons you bought it. I mean you want to talk NVH...even the review above said the TL (when has a honda been quieter than anything!?) gave a quieter ride.
Like every review mentions...When you start building a competent A4, or any of the german brands, and outfit them to compete with jap offerings, like the G or the TL, their price just enteres another class of vehicles. The german cars start to make less n less sense as you move up the ladder of comparable equipment when compared to the Acura.

The best value for the TL is the SHAWD base. i think the TL loses its charm when that sticker touches 42,43...@ that point 3 series all the way, just CAN NOT beat its engine. 38k for an shawd TL, def gives the G37 a run for its money, or anything else, and i think at that point, its just a matter of preference because both vehicles have their good and bad sides, its just what your willing to live with.

also, ive actually started to see many on the road where I live...i gotta say, honestly, the grille isnt the main thing that bothers me, whats been brushed aside some how is the horriffic ass of the TL...seriously, horrible. the trunk design isnt striking, its a laugher.
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Old 12-03-2008, 02:53 PM
  #238  
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Originally Posted by MMike1981
SS still going at it....im amazed...only car thread ive ever seen talking about supply and demand on the other side of the globe....dude u gotta let it die...all the subjective opinions in the world are not going to save the Audi from being exactly what it is: overpriced, underpowered, good-handling-for-its-class AWD sedan.

Is the new A4 good? You bet. Is it on par with the Acura? nope. All roads point to a TL advantage...styling alone , which is 100% subjective, the Acura is the best value, class leader, end of story. Not that that should shock most of the people who own it. Prob one of the main reasons you bought it. I mean you want to talk NVH...even the review above said the TL (when has a honda been quieter than anything!?) gave a quieter ride.
Like every review mentions...When you start building a competent A4, or any of the german brands, and outfit them to compete with jap offerings, like the G or the TL, their price just enteres another class of vehicles. The german cars start to make less n less sense as you move up the ladder of comparable equipment when compared to the Acura.

The best value for the TL is the SHAWD base. i think the TL loses its charm when that sticker touches 42,43...@ that point 3 series all the way, just CAN NOT beat its engine. 38k for an shawd TL, def gives the G37 a run for its money, or anything else, and i think at that point, its just a matter of preference because both vehicles have their good and bad sides, its just what your willing to live with.

also, ive actually started to see many on the road where I live...i gotta say, honestly, the grille isnt the main thing that bothers me, whats been brushed aside some how is the horriffic ass of the TL...seriously, horrible. the trunk design isnt striking, its a laugher.
Sorry for just jumping in, but if it doesn't make sense to buy German cars (when compared to a comparably-equipped Acura TL), why do people buy them? I've owned a 3G TL, and I currently own a TSX as well, so I'm not unfamiliar with the Acura brand.

If I had to make a choice between buying a well-optioned 4G TL and, say, a similarly-equipped B8 A4 for (I'm just assuming here, as I haven't done the numbers) $8,000 or $9,000 more, I'm not sure if that would be enough for me to go with the TL.

If I was restricted to a budget where I didn't have the extra money needed for the Audi, I would probably go for the TL before anything else at that same price point, and feel pretty good about it.

I wonder if anyone else here might feel the same way.
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Old 12-03-2008, 02:58 PM
  #239  
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Im saying from an Acura shopper perspective....when im buying a TL, when comparably equipped, the GERMAN car makes less sense to me. I am in no way saying it makes no sense to the person buying the benz.
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Old 12-03-2008, 03:00 PM
  #240  
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When im buying a benz, i dont care what the price of a comparable acura is, cuz guess what, without even knowing numbers i could tell you the acura would be less hehe...thats a given, and thats why buyers of acuras and buyers of german cars is apples n oranges. Someone looking at juiced 3 series, im just going to assume, doesnt really care what the TL costs.

Now someone shopping the TL, and says hey wait a min, im spending 40k...could i buy a benz!? or a bmw!? then you start to realize where the value diminishes in comparison....
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