Yzerguy

I'm proof of that idea... I've been shopping this last week with my 05 TL Navi lease up in a few weeks... drove the 09 Audi A4, 09 Nissan Maxima, 08 G35... then went back to the Acura dealer... with the $5K (Cdn) drop off list of an 08 TL, with 0.65% lease financing, my payments are within a few dollars of my current TL, with nothing down...

I was hoping to get my hands on keyless entry, push start and all wheel drive, but this deal is hard to say no to. So hard that I won't.

FWIW, the G35 is nice, but there are far more of them than TLs, and they cost a bit more. The A4 actually left me flat, I was told (by Audi people) that it would look exactly like the A5 but with 4 doors, it doesn't look nearly that good, at least in black, and it's hella expensive... which isn't a huge issue until I consider what's going on in the financial markets, real estate markets etc... just today Lehman and insurance GIANT, AIG, are in serious trouble, thinking the bottom will fall out of some of these new 09 cars in the next year to 2 years with all the economic turmoil (maybe not, I'm not wishing for it) so I don't wanna risk being left holding the bag, so to speak.

Back to my point, the A4 exterior didn't live up to my expectations (color me particular), but the interior rocks, it's awesome, and is just like the A5/S5. The A5/S5 is now my long term goal, meantime I'm hella happy to have an 08 TL for practically the same payments as my 05 TL, will hold me over for the next couple of years to make/save more money and see what happens in these strange economic times.

straightbacon

ive been trolling for a while, i didnt fall in love with the 4th gen right away but it slowly grew on me. my next car i wanted a 4wd , but i just cant justify paying 43k for the tl.

Blazing GT

Acura is insane

awood

Assuming the Tech is like a loaded Accord with NAV, this puts the TL now at a $10K delta over a nearly identical Accord. Good luck with that Acura.

awood

Ok, but they just can't stand up and say "we're the same as Lexus now". Heck, if car companies could do that, Hyundai would be the world's performance luxury leader with their 368HP Genesis.

Even though I've had 2 TL's now, I've always looked at Acura as the "discount" luxury car. Now coming off my 2006 "rattle buggy" TL, I am very skeptical of Acura suddenly trying to pretend that they're Lexus.

cwepruk

Being that infiniti is going with the 330hp 3.7 engine and a 7 speed auto in the G37 sedan this year, I don't think the TL measures up price or performance wise.

lindros2

This is an AMERICAN-built, FRONT-wheel drive car.

For mid-40s (Acura doesn't negotiate much on new cars) I feel like I can do better (i.e. G37 sedan or even G37x).

Based on my experience with a low-VIN 2004 TL, I wouldn't touch this until mid-2009. And even then, I'd be interested to see how (if) they're going to lease it. Leasing (money factor) rates have skyrocketed due to the state of the economy and large number of cars being turned in right now.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Actually, the I priced out a similarly equipped 335i. The base 335i (not xi) is $40k. Most colors will cost you $550. Leather interior is another $1.5k. So before I add any options/packages, it's already over $42k. The question comes down to, do you want pure performance, handling, and prestige, or a roomier interior, more standard features, and better reliability. To make the 335i to be similarly equipped as the TL SH-AWD with tech package, you will need to add the sport package for $2150 (18" rims, sports suspension, paddle shifters), premium package for $2650 (bluetooth, garage opener, leather seats), automatic transmission with paddle shifters for $1325, heated seats for $500, navi for $2100, comfort access system for $500 (keyless entry, engine start/stop button), ipod and usb adapter for $400, premium sound system for $875. After adding all these, the MSRP is more than $51k, excluding the destination charge and AWD system. The AWD system would add another $2k.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

A ES350 with navi is $42k. a loaded camry with nav (XLE V6 with navi and package B) is $32k. That's 10k difference. So..good luck with that Lexus?

Edward'TLS

Please also note that not everyone wants sport package, premium package, auto tranny, heated seats, navi, comfort access, ipod/usb, and premium sound in his/her custom-ordered BMW. So the TL doesn't seem to have much of a price advantage when the BMW buyers only ordered none or just a few additional options (options that they really want to have, not forced to have). To these people, giving them options or accessories that they don't need or want, doesn't add much value to the car. After all, it's what they really want that counts.

Do you think a buyer will appreciate if he/she wants to buy a manual-shift car and you give them an auto-shift one just because the latter has better value ?

Edward'TLS

It works for Lexus because the ES350 is a LEXUS. No Toyota car can kill a Lexus. But the Honda Accord coupe can and had killed the Acura CL-S.

Steven Bell

iTrader: (2)

I don't blame you Carlos. Plus, with those cars, you won't get the ugly nose the 2009 TL's have.

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

The vast buying majority of BMW drivers are not cherry picking their options and/or doing european delivery for their BMW (just like the vast majority of TL buyers are not getting M/T). When I went to go test drive the new M3, I went to go look at the 335i's on the lot (Reeves in Tampa) and all of them were A/T and had every single luxury item the usual BMW owner wants. When I asked them if they had any M/T 335i's they gave me the look as if that question had never been asked of them before.

Edward'TLS

That's why they're still sitting there on the car lot. The desirable ones have all been sold as soon as them rolling down the delivery trucks.

I know of two guys who work in car dealerships. One used to sell Audi's and the other BMW's. They all told me that base cars don't have as much profit margins as fully loaded cars. So the dealership tactic is to order nothing else but fully loaded cars (and customer orders of course) from the factory. Note that these are dealership orders, not customer orders. So all these fully loaded cars end up sitting in dealership lot as soon as they get delivered.

This tactic works very well as the stores are making tons of lucrative profits by selling to those "money-no-objective" and "have-cash-must-buy-a-BMW-today" people. Now you tell them there's a better value car out there in the Acura lot, and I bet they'll laugh at you.

KeithL

WOW almost $3500 for the tech goodies, must be some list of goodies, can;t beleive it will be worht that much, curious to see where the G37 Sedan pricing falls.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Yea, for sure, not everyone needs all those gadgets. That's why there are that many people who buy BMW's and MB's.

But the guy I was quoting specifically mentioned "TL SH-AWD w/ tech package." From that I'd imagine he wants something that's fully loaded, other wise, if you don't want that many features in the TL, there's always the base model for $35k which is quite a bit below $42k.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I actually addressed this in another thread.

Anyways, I was saying that the ES350 isn't any faster than the Camry V6 (in fact I think the Camry is actually faster since it's lighter and only gives up 4hp).

Here is a quote from C&D about the performance of ES350,

"That brings the 0-to-60-mph time down to 6.2 seconds and the quarter-mile to 14.7 seconds at 97 mph"

It also has the following performance numbers:
Braking, 70-0 mph: 176 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad*: 0.75 g

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...cs+page-2.html

The as-tested price is $44k, which is actually more than I got in Lexus.

The camry on the other hand, can do the following for $33k:

0-to-60-mph time: 5.8 sec
Quarter-mile time: 14.3 sec @ 99 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 170 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.81 g

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ry_v_6_feature

It's mag racing, but that's the best I can do since I don't neither of these cars. Clearly, the Camry V6 can kill the ES350 in terms of performance, braking, and perhaps handling.

As for the fully loaded TL, it's 10k more than a fully loaded accord, how does Acura address that price difference since it doesn't have as much prestige like Lexus does? Forget about the power advantage since the TL is heavier, but at least it has SH-AWD which ensures its handling is on par with everyone else in the market.

SH-AWD vs prestige, to each of his own I guess.

pokin

For mid-40s, I want pure performance, handling, and prestige...plus very good reliabilty (CR) as well as owner satisfaction (CR). No, I do not need to match the TL's feature list (which is excellent). I built a well-equipped 335i for $46,500 - includes, leather seats, sports package, premium sound.... Don't forget this includes their 4/50k maintenance plan.

jackasswhy

once my lease is up im not staying with acura not only bc of price but simply that they are way behind the pack performance wise especially with that crappy 5spd auto sigh...

psteng19

It appears that both base TL's (3.5 and 3.7 non-tech) do not come with intelligent key, features that are standard on all G35 and IS250/350 models.
Not so sure about that move...

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

But not all cars in this segment have that feature standard, ie the BMW. I find it interesting that, even with all the standard features on the TL, there are people who complain the TL still doesn't come with enough gadgets (ie the intelligent key), but on the other hand there are people who complain there are too many standard features.

What should Acura do? Include more standard features or not?

Colin

I think you find it more than "interesting"! For those that want more or want less all I can say is "its always been this way" Acura always provides a fully equipped car with few options. In fact, we've been getting more and more choices every year, but I've been told that there are those (inside the company) that would prefer they go simpler on the packages.

So if you are waiting for Acura to start going 'line by line' on features, then you might as well move on to another brand. It's not happening any time soon if ever.

This is true, but that's essentially 4 oil changes and misc fluid inspections. The 335 is an impressive car, but it is small. If this is all the size you want/require that's great. But if your family needed something the size of the 5 series (which is the size competitor) then the dynamic changes.

FWIW, Acura has not changed the standard lease money rates in 4 months. They have removed the special rates from the outgoing 08 TLs but this is normal; they do this at the end of every model year.

This is true, and there are also more expensive materials. High Strength Steel makes up more of the chassis and results in a 15% gain in structural rigidity and for the first time an Aluminum hood is used on a TL

timmahh

The manual will be avail in 2010 with the Type-S right?

Thought I read about a 4G TL-S in 2010 w/ a manual.. but.. anyone wondering what it's going to cost? It's going to be more than a Tech Package SH-AWD I would guess, so are we thinking close to $50k ??

nore03

So..... Can someone tell me what the price increase between the 2G and the 3G was?? Cause i doubt they offered the 2G TL for around the same price as a 3G TL. I'm not surprised at the increase. Its not like this is a refresh of the 2G TL. This is a completely different and new car.

TulsaTL6

I see your point, but is everyone missing the fact that the AWD model gets 305 Horses!!!??? That puts it way ahead of the IS250 in HP, and from what I've read it's still at least 5k less than a similarly equippped BMW, Mercedes or Lexus models. The only car I see as a real competition for both features and price is the Infiniti G35 AWD model.

I do think the new TL is ugly, but I still bet Acura sells a ton of them.
(And I really, really hope they offer a 6MT later on)

awood

My '06 TL was $1500 more than my '02 TL-S.

awood

Yes, but the $10K delta was for the standard TL vs. Accord, not the AWD version. It's almost $14K going from the loaded Navi Accord to the Tech AWD TL.

I think we all get the point though, and that is, Acura is "near luxury" and Lexus is "luxury". Perhaps Acrura can change their "discount Luxury" over time, but its going to take more than slapping on a higher price tag.

Presonally, I now think lot less of Acura build quality (after my '06 TL) than I did after my '02 TL-S. I feel its going the wrong way.

If they want Lexus caliber price premiumsl, the new TL better be a BIG improvement over G3 - i.e. not even the same car.

stevesTL

Acura has stated they expect 70% of buyers to check the Tech box when buying the new TL. With a $3700 difference, that's big. I wonder with that wide a difference if Acura will get the 70%?

smsTL

iTrader: (1)

I would go for HighTech version

Colin

Huh? The breakout provided at the ride and drive was as follows:

TL = 30%
TL Tech = 50%
TL SH-AWD = 5%
TL SH-AWD Tech = 13%
TL SH-AWD Tech w/ HPT = 3%

If I remember correctly, a 1G 3.2 TL was about 36K in 1998, 2G TL was about 29K in 2003. When 3G came out in the fall of 2003 it was around 33K so it was easily $3-4,000 more than 2G at MSRP and more when you consider discounts on the outgoing car. Funny huh? The price difference from a base 2008 to a base 2008 (MSRP to MSRP) this time around is the smallest ever yet the whining it louder...

Edward'TLS

When the 3G TL just came out, it was listed at about the same price as the 2G TL Type-S. After all, the 3G TL's all have the same 2G TL-S powerplant and VSA stuffs.

DivinDude

Sorry Acura, I'll drive down the street with my $40+k before I shop anything at your stores .. I've owned 6 of your vehicles in the past 10 years .. and I won't pay $45k for an ugly rattle box

KeithL

So what exactly is the Tech package going to have? Navi, XM, backup camera? What else to justify $3700. Keyless start, that is bogus, I can keyless start on almsot every Nissan!!

KeithL

I may be wrong, but the 1G was over priced and did not sell well, henlce the lower pricing.

Colin

1G was built in Japan and thus the higher price. This car was essentially the Legend and when viewed this way, it was not a bad value. If you throw this one out, and concentrate only on US made TLs, then you can see a steady progression in price till this year. Base for base, it's one of the smallest increases.

chidude

I currently own a 335xi and here is my take.

The 335 is more fun to drive then the current 3G TL.
The 3 is MUCH smaller of a car than the either 3G or 4G TL. This is very much a reason it is more fun to drive. A 5 is not as sporty as the 3, and is more comparable in most ways to the TL.
The 3 costs significantly more with similar features. The 5 costs a ton more.
The 3 is more refined on the interior. It just looks nicer. For me, this seperates BMW/Benz from Lexus/Acura/Infiniti. The Japanese companies always have components that seem stolen from their cheaper relatives.
The 3 is not, in my mind, any where near as reliable as an Acura.

And it is this last reason that will have me trading in my 3 for a TL SH-AWD later this year. Yes, BMW has this 4/50 maintenance and thank heavens, cause I have had to do $10,000 in warranty repairs on a two year old car, including fully replacing the transmission and the i-Drive system.

It is this reason, quality, that will bring me to Honda/Acura and this reason that I believe their cars will continue to sell very, very well.

Edward'TLS

^^^^^ I wonder why it's so difficult for the European car makers to build reliable cars - cars as reliable as those from Honda and Toyota. But if they can nail this reliability problem, then Honda and Toyota will be in trouble, because a lot of buyers buy Japanese because of their excellent reliability more than anything else.

Colin

I've often theorized that it might the the endless options list. I have to think that making a consistently good car is difficult if you are 'stopping' the line every other car to add one 'widget' or another. Europeans and domestics are similar in this regard with similar results.

chidude

Colin, I think your theory, is without question on target. We used to discuss this exact concept in basic mechanical engineering classes in college. General manufacturing excellence focuses significantly on minimizing production variation. The thought being that each variation introduces significant further complexity, and complexity brings more failure points. This theory applies to simple things, like creation of metal casings, imagine its consequences when applied to basic consumer electronics (why ipods on come in a few models) and then to more stark effect when discussing something like an automobile.

bigred123

We'll, I'm one in this camp too. I just took a look at the incentives on the 2008 TL's here in Canada, and unbelievable. For cash purchases, $8K off the base and Type-S auto model, and $9K off the Navi and Type-S 6MT.

I have my 1999 TL, and my expectation with the Canadian pricing is that the car will be close to the base price in Canada, and the SH-AWD Tech will top out in the $50-52K range.

That is well over $10K in differences for a few new features and the new styling. So I just pulled the trigger on a 2008 TL Navi...will be getting it Friday. My view is I'll see what the 2009's seem like, and heck even if I flip the car in a year, my predicition with the econonmy going is that Acura will have to put incentives on the 2009's to move them if they are too high priced.

Funny that my new 2008 TL costs less than used 2007/2008's selling privately or through dealers.

$8-9K is a huge savings (if you can pay cash)...too good for me to turn down (the value buyer). I really wanted the 2009, but couldn't pass this up. At least Acura gets another car in my family....I had seriously considered the G35x too, they also have some good incentives on ($6K off for cash purchases).

Seems to me I'll ride out the price wave here in Canada to see what happens...Lexus dropped their prices twice this year already, and their cars still aren't selling as well as they should be.