saturno_v

I totally agree on this point (and do not forget to include Nissan with Infiniti which has a dedicated North-South platform for the luxury market).

There is nothing wrong with the Accord platform, it is one of the best and most refined mainstream generic midsize sedan platform on the market (no Di engines and a bit behind auto transmission aside)

Double wishbone suspension, front and rear subframes, etc...that architecture is pretty much premium already...but its real limitation for the luxury market crowd is its traverse mounted engine which in practice preclude engines larger than 3-3.5 liters in displacement. You can theoretically fit a large V8 sidewise but you end up having a ridiculously nose heavy car which nobody would take seriously (Pontiac Grand Prix GXP, Impala SS, Cadillac Seville...you get the point...)

Pretty much all fully fledged luxury sedans in that size class have larger V8 engines available...that option is precluded on a TL (or also the current RL)....this is one of the reason why the TL cannot never compete as full spectrum midsize luxury sedan....you could slap couple of turbos in a big V6 and that's it....

However with the current downsizing trend, turbomania and focus on high performance hybrid vehicles, the Honda/Acura traverse layout may still have some chance in that segment.

jjsC5

Yeah, my wording might have been a little extreme. I'll admit to that. Thanks for your comments.

saturno_v

Congratulation again for your 550i

I would have done the same thing coming from the V6 3-3.5 liter engine midsize luxury sedan segment (your former G350) and wanting a significant upgrade. The 535 would have been more of a "lateral" move than a move up.

From my TL SH-AWD if I wanted to move to a BMW, I would want the 550 as well.....

If the style of the new RLX is the sign of the new things to come for Acura, the new design language, I suspect my TL will be my first and last Acura....

g37guy01

I view the 535 as an upgrade over the current crop of ELLPS. There is a smoothness and refinement available in the 535, that does not filter down the 40K+ sedans.

This is of course about value and your mileage will vary.

winstrolvtec

It definately is a "shared" platform but I am not so sure it's main focus was to be suited for the Accord first and foremost. I believe that is a misconception and perception issue, as it could just as easily be the RL platform that is used in the Accord, for example. That is one reason the Accord gets a lot of praise for it's platform in the mainstream segments, it's more than is actually needed there, and it fits the TL perfectly with it maybe being a stretch for the RL IMO.

If by "make due", you mean they can build a car that is larger, more comfortable and more spacious than a brand new generation 328 (because it's often considered the best in class), prices out the same or less when comparably equipped, and is still a more capable vehicle despite being FWD based and having AWD vs a new dedicated RWD setup, when the TL is near the end of it's gen cycle, not to mention, "antiquated" 6AT and NA motors, then I guess they will just have to "get by" with what they have.

The amount of negative connotation attached to just one small sentences is amazing but what is even more notable is how little objectivity or objective consideration there is in any of it.

BEAR-AvHistory

Hey if you want to believe the limited production RL fathered the mass market Accord platform be my guest. It would make a very interesting B School case study & possibly explain Hondas current problems.

winstrolvtec

No model has to father any other model, a platform can be made and adapted to fit multiple models. The Accord was not the only vehicle Honda had in mind when they developed the platform.

BEAR-AvHistory

So do you still think the platforms main focus was something other then the Accord when the Accord sold 27K units last month compared to 3K for the TL.?

It takes the Accord less then a month & a half to exceed the TL's annual sales.

winstrolvtec

Not sure how relevant that is because one could just as easily say the platform's use in the Accord is a reason for it's success, multiple C&D 10 best, etc, etc. Then there is your usual argument about the TL having been projected to sell 70k units a year, not to mention that the platform is used in more models than just the TL and Accord.

I didn't say the primary focus was something other than the Accord, I said the Accord was not the only vehicle in mind in producing the platform, there is a difference. Contrary to what you may think, the platform does not have to be either an Accord platform built "up" for the TL, etc or a TL/RL platform build "down". It can be a multi-purpose global platform reconfigured appropriately with the luxury segments in mind therefore more than good enough for mainstream use.

But if you insist on the actual focal point of the platform from Honda's point of view, I can quote from a MT article with info that comes straight from the horse's mouth and if you look at how the products are reflected in real life it makes perfect sense.

Historically, as far as the sedan implementation goes, the platform has always been built with the TL in mind. It's main use has always been the Accord for other reasons. Think about it, excluding the TSX, Honda has three levels of products in the Accord, TL and RL. Does it makes sense to built a bottom of the line platform to work up two whole levels or would you build at least with the middle product in mind that can easily slot down and also be stretched up?

BEAR-AvHistory

Actually I would have broken it off at the Accord/TSX level on a FWD platform & run a proper RWD platform for the TL/RL with a slight wheelbase stretch for the RL.

I would have also used the Accord 2DR platform with a SH AWD ic/hybird pairing to build a low volume high performance TL sport coupe to round the product line.

It will be interesting to see if the TL gets squeezed out in 2014 with the ILX, TSX, & RLX being the three cars to carry the product line.

winstrolvtec

It's not that I disagree but that's besides the point. Honda is not actually "making due" with anything besides the platform use in the RL (and perhaps the FWD setup in the TSX to an extent but that's changing anyway).

Other than that, a RWD platform would be useful for a true compact competitor that Acura does not seem to want to build even in an SH fashion, which is a whole other discussion, but outside of that it's not that all that necessary.

RWD has some numbers in the mid level segment but not enough that SH wouldn't suffice, a lot of that is AWD buyers anyway. Flagship consumers could really car less IMO, as that is not why you buy that type of car.

BEAR-AvHistory

Well the fact remains that that the RL sold 1000 cars all last year & has not sold 100 through end of March this year. The 4G TL is performing at 50% of projection since it was introduced. The ZDX is another winner they sold less then 200 so far this year.

Something big time is wrong at Acura regardless what the general opinions are on this forum.

You said in another post that the 70K TL sales was only an estimate so it does not really matter they are selling 34K. I can guarantee this; if before I retired any of my group managers came to me to try to explain a 50% miss in sales targets & ROI after a major investment in new product infrastructure they would be gone in a heartbeat.

Most likely would have been gone with them.

jjsC5

How does a thread about a guy buying a new BMW turn into a debate over which Hondas/Acuras are related to each other?

Edward'TLS

This is the norm in Acurazine.

Read my previous post #141.

winstrolvtec

You keep harping on this stuff but I don't see the point. Perhaps things seem seriously wrong because they are not necessarily playing the same game as BMW, MB or Lexus. That's not to say everything is perfect but if they choose to focus on a small, limited, demographic specific lineup that is their business, as is whether or not to adopt RWD in a RWD filled luxury marketplace.

Consider that perhaps they find more profitability per unit and more full sales price purchases where others find more volume and leasing. It's not all about units, not every BMW, MB, or Lexus model sells in force, just the same and those models cost them a lot more to produce, in most cases.

Yes, there is almost no market for a ZDX type vehicle, they are not the only ones guilty of that (BMW, X6), the TL was over forcasted and has/had some of it's own issues, the RL was mildily competitive when it first came out and needed a new gen model 4 years ago. They could use a real compact competitor and a coupe variant, etc, etc, but clearly if they thought all of these things are what is holding them back, they would have had enough time to correct that or implement them.

They are in the same exact luxury brand sales rank position (US) now as they were back in 04-06 so besides all the doom and gloom exaggerations, things are not much, if any worse, at the end of the day. I would hate to see what you think of Audi and Infiniti, or Volvo, Saab, Jaguar, etc, if things are all wrong at Acura. Or maybe you actually like a model or two in those brands so they must be doing just fine.

jjsC5

I'm a forum junkie, I see it a lot. I must say though that this forum rehashes the same debates quite a bit. But then again its a small community so I guess it doesn't really matter. Gives us something to do.

kc1953

Shouldn't we be out driving our 5 series?

BEAR-AvHistory

That's the problem: you don't see the point or don't want to see the point. At least Mr. Fumihiko gets it.

(Reuters) - Honda Motor Co slashed its annual profit guidance to the lowest level in three years.

Honda cut its expectations for operating profit for the business year to March 31. It marks a drop of 65 percent compared with year-earlier profits.

"Any way you look at it, this has been an extremely tough year for Honda," Chief Financial Officer Fumihiko told a news conference on Tuesday after Honda released its results. There is also some mention of supporting their “struggling Acura division” in the various reports.

Yeah, They are doing just great....If you don't move units based on your fixed plant capacity you don't make money.

On the other side of the ocean.

FRANKFURT, Germany (AP) — Germany automaker BMW says it is shooting for another record year in 2012, issuing an upbeat outlook for higher car sales and profits.

The company said Monday it would improve on the 1,668,982 in vehicles sales from last year, a 14 percent increase from the year before, and would post higher pretax profit than the record euro7.38 billion from 2011.

Looks like they have the leasing thing worked out pretty well. BTW according to BMW numbers 50% of the cars are on lease.

You can have the thread back now for a 4G support group group hug.

winstrolvtec

No, I see all of this Global Honda vs Global BMW info and expectations but I don't see the/your point. What is that supposed to mean or suggest? How is it relevant to the discussion? Did you even bother to read the rest of my post?

Are BMW and Honda the only two automakers in the world? Am I supposed to only pick BMW or support them because of how they fair at the moment? Does it mean BMW has it right and Acura has it wrong? I can continue to guess but could you please explain where you are going with this or how it ties back to what was being discussed, if it all.

winstrolvtec

^BTW, clever spin on the article, totally different context of "doom and gloom" when one actually reads it instead of leaving the highlights up to you. I should know better. In short:

Honda slashes profit outlook on disasters, sees rebound

Honda Motor Co slashed its annual profit guidance to the lowest level in three years as it counted the cost of natural disasters in Japan and Thailand and a strong yen. But it forecast a healthy rebound next year.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...80T1XX20120131

BEAR-AvHistory

Sure there are quite a few manfactures in the world. I have just been talking about the ones that seem to get the most ink here.

Daimler Marks 125th Anniversary with Record Revenues and Profits The German maker posted a net profit of 6 bllion euros, or roughly $8.2 billion, on record sales of 106.5 billion Euros, or $145 billon, last year.

Audi Profits Surged 60% In 2011 - Becoming One Of The Most Profitable Car Companies On The Planet.

Hyundai Motors has had a big year, and the results are showing in the form of healthy profits. The Korean automaker earned $1.75 billion in the first quarter, up 46 percent versus the first quarter of 2010, while overall sales were up 21 percent to $17 billion.

Volkswagen more than doubles profit with 15% sales gain in 2011

BEAR-AvHistory

No spin just the highlights - the sales are still flat at 50% of projection since the introduction of the car. First quarter sales for 2010, 2011, 2012 were all just over 8K units & the CFO said what he said. If they are not selling anymore cars where does the "rebound" come from. The same place as Honda's claimed 42% increase in Acura sales Jan 11 to Jan 12? Honda's projections about growth & sales have been so wrong (off 50%) in the past why should they be given any weight now?

Honda suffered its first quarterly loss in 15 years with $2.1 billion dollars lost in three months during 2009 well before the big storm. I think their financials suck, their Chief Financial Officer thinks the financials suck, the Chief Executive Officer thinks their direction sucks, the Chief Marketing Officer says they over reached with the TL design & you think its all spin. OK enjoy the merry-go-round.

winstrolvtec

May I ask why you are jumping all over the place? It's your merry-go-round, not mine. If we talk about the TL, you spin it into a global Honda vs global BMW thing. You then post info about a Honda decline but omit one very signifcant part about the impact from the natural disasters, as if it has anything to do with the TL. In fact, no mention of the TL in the article even.

Then you use that to jump back to the TL, again which is a very insignificant part in the global Honda regard, as if Honda as a whole was going to rebound on the back of the TL. The TL could double it's sales over the next two years and it's not putting much of a dent in the natural disasters losses.

The TL, which you are overly focusing on, does not speak for the whole Honda brand nor Acura, for that matter. Why so fixated on the TL? Do you honestly think the TL is responsible for 2.1 billion in losses? That's a spin if I ever heard one.

Ya, it was a bad time and still is but most lost money in that quarter, BMW lost 73.7 million, Daimler was down 1.49 billion, MB down 1.12 billion, at the same time. Going back to previous point, BMW had used its Financial Services unit to continuously increase its sales through cheap lease deals and in 2008 BMW took a massive 1.6 billion Euro hit to it's earnings caused by falling prices of cars coming off leases.

Acura did strike out a bit with the TL and over reached on the entire project and they do need a more solid direction, I agree, but what is your point having stressed all of that?

DannyZRC

bear-AV wants to forget that BMW is making bank in china on limos for politicos, and that the global car industry save for china had this thing called carmageddon? maybe he's heard of it?

Oh, Honda didn't meet projections that it made before the housing bubble burst? SHOCKER.

DNFTT, etc. ;p

BEAR-AvHistory

Not to put to fine a point on it but the TL is the easiest car to use showing that Honda has lost its way. For the past 3 years TL sales are pretty flat year to year & month to month so its hard to see how the storm impacted them.

BTW over half a million Pilots & CRV’s were recalled two weeks ago, two of my daughters have Pilots on my recommendation so what Honda is doing is of interest to me.

Bottom line as to what its about is the way posters here seem to take great delight in going after anyone who sells off their TL & moves into something else be it up or downscale. Instead of just being happy for them it seems like its necessary for the regulars to compete for the best snarky comment. So what is the harm in giving the gracious folks something to think about?

The TL is just a car not a Religion & most people will eventually move on.

winstrolvtec

^What way would that be? The storm has not impacted the TL all that much, that's why I'm not sure why you even shifted to Honda global and vs BMW. However, the percentage spike in January did have something to do with TL inventory and incentives finally being up but I'm not sure how a 1st quarter melt down at Honda in 2009 has much to do with the TL, in fact TL sales at that time were a bright spot at Acura because of it's intro carryover.

It's kind of a contradiction that Honda has a half million of successful models to recall in the first place yet they have lost their way because they no longer build a product that interests you and maybe there's some bitterness. Honda has quite a few top sellers FWIW and BTW, BMW has millions of recalls going on right now as well and they pose a more dangerous threat with electrical fires, tranny failure, and loss of engine cooling as opposed to Honda's faulty headlight. All brands have recalls.

BMW is doing a great job as is Audi for examples but they do not have anything that interests me enough to buy. I don’t feel the need to trash them at every chance I get for my own personal reasons, see the difference? Honda has been hit harder by the disasters than anyone and another TL will eventually be made, you can't win all of the time, life goes on.

I'm pretty sure going after someone has to be triggered or warranted in some way. I see lots of congrats and good info on how a couple of cars relate. Sure some people get carried away on both sides but I have not seen anything here that went after the OP, only other peoples' comments and then latter another poster mentioned getting a 5 series as well and admittingly exaggerated his 5 series and TL comparison and comments a bit or they were out of context and put into perspective but we understand completely and it's no big deal.

Did anybody trash their new rides or give either member crap for it, that we know they would be getting if it was another fan site, say like BMW for example? It seems you do not give the same respect you get here. Most compliment our base because stuff like that doesn't go on here, it's a classy, respectful group and we like all cars, we just so happen to own TL's and therefore are fans but there is a line there that is rarely crossed, yet some of you non-owners continuously insist that we are just a blind fanboy based cult, etc, etc.

Clearly it's your problem if you do not know the difference but don't make it ours. I said it in another thread, I will say it here. Remember who it is that attempting to label who while at the same time participating at a fan dedicated forum while having already established that you do not care for the particular vehicle.

IMO, I think it is common courtesy to extend a bit of respect and exercise restraint in what you say or how you choose your words when you interact with a dedicated fanbase, we do make up this particular forum and our appreciation for our cars is done at the right place and you are more along the lines of a guest here, so maybe act accordingly and it will change how you are being received, just a suggestion. Unless of course that is your motive in which case you should not even be here IMO.

I could not have said it better myself, the TL is just a car, so why haven't you moved on?

g37guy01

True, but 4 years later where does everybody stand is his point.

BEAR-AvHistory

And Buick sells more cars in China then it does in the US. Must be something about the explosive growth in the car market there.

BTW besides Canada isn't China the only other place in the world that Honda sells the TL?