Still the Vacheron is objectively better by any measurement you want to take...other than maybe weight....and the Timex can match it only in time measurement....

 

Good leasing deals is definitely a good motivator....


BMW are very good cars...just richly priced for the value....BMW is not "fooling" anyone...I do not call any 528 or 535 driver a stupid or a fool....to each their own...just do not try to convince yourself that it is superior to a TL or other comparable cars because it costs more...

 

sure you can

 

....like Apple at $600 a share??

 

haha saturno, don't jinx it! (I don't care if it drops, have been long apple for years now :p).

I thought the cartier-timex comparison was apt, since people are trying to argue that a BMW is intrinsically/objectively better than a TL, but a cartier isn't objectively/intrinsically better than a timex. It's worse.

 

...well it is from a materials, fit, finish, style, status poitn of view.....however at the end is just a watch....


You are long Apple probably also because you know very well mass psycology and good marketing results......and these guys are master marketers....quite opposite for Acura....disastrous.....

 

well, a watch is a device to tell time, and the timex is better at that. It performs all functions more accurately and does so for far less investment of resources and manufacturing effort.

The other parts, the materials, the fit, the finish, the style, they are all irrelevant to telling time, they relate to your last item, status.

The watch, like every single other article of your wardrobe, most of your possessions, and even a decent chunk of your speech (elocution, framing, content), is a way you communicate status.

The Acura and the BMW have different messages to send, and different people are buying them because they want to say these different things, and this matter of status is probably more relevant to the purchases than any differences these customers perceive in the qualities of these two cars.

I'd give my amateur hour write up of the two brand messages, but nobody wants to be patronized, least of all me ;p

 

Well I used lapping as an example to ultimately demonstrate the handling differences as they correlate to ride quality, that doesn't mean anybody has to frequent the track, that's just how those things work.

A good track vehicle can't be a good street vehicle? Many would argue that if it's good on the track, it will be great on the street but does not have to used that way to have real world benefits.

If you are focusing more on the ride quality aspect then we could just as easily say that luxury sedans don't need to adopt a sport distincton since it's only used for the street or commuting anyway and at the same time, why even bother with more luxury and higher price points? Why should BMW even bother to make a sportier luxury sedans (including firmer rides) than some of it's softer rivals?

The 328 and 528 have lots going for them, it's just a lot less then it's often made out to be. The biggest thing they do have going, is that they are cheaper priced BMW's. I'll use Apple since it's being thrown around a lot lately, you don't have to invent or necessarily be "better" or more innovative than anybody else (you can even borrow someone else's technology), just establish yourself as a household brand and market the crap out of your products. You don't have to fool everyone, you just have to fool enough of them.

 

See the bold, by whose yardstick are we measuring a lot less. Going back to the watch example, you could say my vacheron has much, much less going for it than a $25 timex which all of the electronic doodads. Yet at the price that it was bought at it's only a single function device, to wit some people might laugh at how could I buy such a dud.

We all have different yardsticks. One persons 5 star meal is another persons MacDonalds. Unless you stick to things you measure this just goes round in circles. But if you stick just to those things you can measure, you are reducing a car to 4 wheels, a brake pedal, accelerator and steering wheel. Might as well buy an exploding Ford Pinto.

 

Well yes, under this logic every car beyond a basic transportation is pure waste (and we can apply this concept to anything)....

A very good friend of mine has more net worth than several people I know driving with cars costing close to the 6 figures neighbourhood....well he drives everyday a Kia Spectra and he is a car guy....he did recently buy a Nissan 370Z (replacing his old 350Z) just to have fun at the track and the occasional Sunday driving.

His logic?? Well there is not point nowadays with current speed limits in buying anything more powerful for everyday use...all he cares is comfy seats, reliability, air conditioning and power steering...he does not need space (married with no kids, lives in a fancy condo) that car is comfortable enough even for the occasional weekend road trip and it gets to 70-80 mph very quickly.....I totally agree with him....when he wants to get serious, he takes his 370 to the track....


Even allowing a little bit of "splurge and luxury" I would say that a fully loaded Camry or Accord can give you a ride not that dissimilar in comfort from a 7 Series.....anything beyond that is pure waste....

I grew up in Italy and when I was little a 4 cylinder 2.0 sedan (the best at that time peaked at about 130 HP) was a "big car", luxury territory and a minuscole segment of the automotive car market...and we had much more permissive speed limits back then and the average size family was larger....

Absolutely.

 

Well not that is extreme...objective measures of quality can go beyond just 4 wheels a brake pedal and so on....brake feel, steering feel, fit and finish, quietness, etc...but perception is incredibly powerful...I bet that if you take a bunch of people for a ride in a Maserati Quattroporte, everyone will tell you that is quieter than a Mazda 6.....well the Mazda 6 has been tested actually quieter than a Quattroporte in all conditions....

 

the watch example can't be used to say any car beyond basic transportation is just excess for the sake of status.

a car can be basic transportation, it can also be a comfortable form of transportation, a fast form of transportation, a controllable form of transportation, a controllable comfortable and fast form of transportation, and there are many measurable things that define these characteristics.

I'm merely saying that no matter what anything is, it is also a symbol, and I would argue that part of the price difference from a TL to a BMW can be traced to one or more socially valuable status' that the BMW represents. Not all of the difference, some of the difference.

 

Well any basic form of transportation nowadays is very comfortable....you really have to get into some real bottom feeder small models to experience a bad ride....fast transportation is illegal on public roads....anything over 70-75 mph is not allowed by law.....any econobox can sprint to that speed in a snap...


The only real differentiation in transportation is space....if you need a bigger car because of kids, bikes, etc....the market satisfy that need without spending a fortune...

I would say any car beyond 30K is status and want...not need.....

It is incredible how the law of diminishing returns kicks in even in the automotive world....you could feel much more pronounced the difference in ride, smoothness and quality betwwen that Kia Spectra and a 3-4K cheaper Chevrolet Cavalier for example than the Spectra and a 20K more expensive Infiniti G35 one of our friends bought at the same time....

 

any car is status, even a cheap 4k car.

 

Tell that to my house cleaner driving a Pontiac 6000
Maybe you mean negative status....LOL

 

they all symbolize something, and everyone wants to find symbols that fit their desired narrative.

For example, in the USA, there is no higher status car for a politician than the "election special", aka the Ford Escape Hybrid. :p

 

In the case of my house cleaner that Pontiac 6000 it symbolize that she cannot afford anything else!!

 

you're selling her short, even down there she made a choice, there are plenty of other cars she could have bought, but she spent her money the best way she knew how, which was a pontiac 6000. That car is a basic family car, it's a beige camry for the totally broke.

Plenty of other cars and trucks out there for similar money, but why that one? Symbols play a role.

 

Come on Danny you are working too much!!! Let's get a beer.....ehehe She got that car because probably someone gave to her for free or was suggested by someone else...she is the farther person you may imagine from the automotive world!!! You stirred my curiosiry I'm going to ask her!!! LOL

 

On the contrary, my cleaning lady drives a 3-series base car, and my sister's cleaning lady drives a 5-series base car.

The interpretation is plain and simple. After finishing cleaning work, they feel really proud driving around in their BMW's, and because of their BMW's, they can assure that no one is gonna "look down" on them.

 

LOL...good one....

In all seriousness...I frankly doubt cleaning professional can even afford a basic car in freaking expensive Vancouver BC....that city is a bizarro world....

 

And what messages would those be? Acura, Infiniti, BMW, Lexus are all status symbols... of course now the conversation is how much status?

I'm being a bit sarcastic. While you view the BMW as a status symbol, I don't. BMWs are too mainstream. In fact Porsches are also mainstream.

All of the cars are also mainstream and carry no prestige or status. I do view these sedans though as being premium.

My watch, I don't view as a status symbol either. It's a watch...

 

So is a test drive. Which brings us back to why BMWs place high on nearly every comparo, while the TL doesn't?

If the emperor really wore no clothes, the buying public would have found it out already.

 

While that is usually the case, it does not have to be a matter of whose yard stick, it actually can be measured on a relatively constant level with little subjective interpretation. Now if you value a certain element more than I do that's where a personal measuring device applies but the comparisons can take place removing personal or individual based criteria and it involves a lot more than just wheels, brakes, etc. Let me make it easier, take a $46k base 528i and a $46k TL SH advance. They're lined up in price and so now all you have to do is account what each has and what they don't.

In short, it takes another $10k to account for what's missing in the 5 that even begins to resemble what the TL has and I am being generous. I added Dakota leather, metallic paint, premium sound, keyless access, heated front, tech package, contoured seats. Mind you it does not have homelink, vented seats, active blind spot etc, but it does have some features standard that the TL does not offer such as, swivel heads, power steering column, auto dimming, etc so that is good for a wash.

Now as for the bigger stuff, the TL has a 3.7L 305 hp motor, the 5 comes with a 240 hp 4 cyl, The TL has active AWD as well as torque vectoring, easily a $4k-$5k value even by BMW standards. It costs $5.5k to move up to a comparable engine in the BMW. We said the 5 had better quality materials and components here and there and perhaps better noise insulation and overall cabin solidity. That level of move up for those elements of refinement and luxury can also be had around the industry in that luxury range for anything between $5k-$10k. I will use the full $10k to give the benefit of the doubt.

So it's $10k difference in sticker, add another $10k for AWD+TV plus the lesser motor compensation, making $20k, now deduct the full amount for the luxury/refinement compensation and we are still missing $10k in objectively assigned material value, when compared to the TL. What is supposed to account for that $10k? Advertising, import taxes, foreign labor costs, more use of third party suppliers, basically a higher cost of doing business maybe, etc, none of which is actually manufacturer costs represented in the actual vehicle itself or it's bottom-line results. Like I said, the car has lots going for it but a lot less than the premium it commands, less than most think, and again, less than it's made out to be, objectively speaking. Subjectively speaking, I would agree 100% that it varies and depends.

I didn't even get into things like reliability factors and resale value, maintenance costs but that becomes a little more tricky with a much finer line. It's the same concept to take a higher priced 5 but instead of justifying the de-contented nature of the vehicle, you have to justify the premium but I am not talking about someone's ability to do so or not for whatever reasons they may have. I am talking about it in the same sense someone goes to buy a house, just because you would be willing to pay $1M does not make it worth that much. There are ways of determining if it is actually, physically and objectively worth the price or not or at least an approximation, where you can get pretty darn close.

Let me be clear I am not questioning anybody’s judgment or purchase decision, etc. I am just trying to point out that comparisons of this nature can go beyond whatever we simply “feel” something is worth it or how easy or hard it is for someone to justify a premium. Perception and personal basis usually come into play, there is nothing wrong with that but you can also remove them and get another perspective.

 

Where?? Nothing that I can touch anytime I did put my behind on a 5 Series....we already mentioned some higher value trim pieces (the wood insert for example) and some more use of softer plastic in the low areas...that's about it....

I posted the pics of the door panels with specific example....you can immediately see which one feels "richer" overall

 

What do you talking about?? When it comes to handling and road feel the TL comes at a very high mark with any comparo I know (C&D, MT, Edmunds)

The TL "loses" the comparos mainly because of its polarizing style...period

 

Yes, that is what I am refering to. I was assigning value based on those things. The areas that are usually used to conclude that cars exist on luxury levels, entry, mid, and so on.

That gap usually warrants a premium. Even an RL has that compared to a TL. It seem proportionately the same if not very similar when compared to the 5. Regardless of whether it is or it isn't, I still think a value should still be assigned for those areas because the market automatically does it.

 

Sure, I give value to 4 pieces of wood trim and few more square inches of soft plastic...5K max, to be extremely generous, in my book.....

The presence of the RL in the current Acura lineup give you an idea of how much Acura management has its head up to their behind...that car make no absolute sense in its current form....it probably cost more to them just to have few RLs in showrooms than the profit they make from the non-existant sales....and I bet a good percentage of the RL "sales" are to Acura personnel/sales force, company cars, demo and so on.

I'm really surprised how such clueless company (at the moment) could come up with such good car as the current TL.....I bet it was an accident...

 

I am very happy you like your TL. I liked mine too. But I like my 535i a bit more. If you have done the test drives, compared the two cars and have concluded that the TL is every bit the equal and in some ways superior to the 535i with sport pkg,etc., then that is your conclusion and opinion. You are entitled to your beliefs. I have no intention of bad mouthing the TL.

 

I agree, I have always said the same thing, about $5k, as it is not lined with gold or anything. The market says between $5-$10k, I gave $10k to be generous and in order to prove a point.

One could probably mod their own interior and further insulate, sound deaden, improve trims and leather sections, etc, for comparable results for even less. Not that it is common or really applies to the type of comparison but it adds perspective.

 

I'm not bad mouthing the 535 either..I love it and probably it is in a second strong place after my TL.

I never claimed thet that TL is overall superior to a 535...it may have some details I like more (and so the 535 has some I like more) but definitely equal in terms of capabilities and road feel.

I did choose the TL mainly because I did like the look more and the availability of a manual transmission with the AWD setup.


Sure if you hit hard the option list at some point the 535 becomes overall more desiderable.....but in the process you are well north of 60K.....in fully loaded CTS-V territory in other words....as much as I like the 535....no context

 

These "discussions" always are interesting but, let's be honest. You can spend about $15K or even less for a basic Toyota Corolla that will get you from A to B very nicely and reliably. Spend more than that and you are buying "perception" which is what makes the world go round.

 

+1 or if you want to badge shop you can move up to a Honda Accord EX for $25K & get all the room of a TL & more room then a 3'r

 

Are you in the 100%, lol.

 

I could post a picture of gold and brass. Could you tell from a photo which was which?

 

Uh not. We could get into posting links, but we've been there before. And I'm talking auto, since the majority of cars sold is auto.

 

Everyone is,

 

Unfortunately I cannot post a real door panel on the internet yet ....so I did post couple of pics going through the material with description as best as possible...

 

You are right...the only weak spot in road testing for the TL SH-AWD is the lack of acceleration for the auto transmission...that's about it...the manual take care of that issue.

Another issue, which I would rather say is a different characteristic rather than a problem is the lack of low end grunt because of its naturally aspirated engine compared to a supercharged/turbocharged one of similar output...similar issue on the G37.

 

YES