LaCostaRacer

How about the AWD system? Which system is better between Acura and Ford? Both the TL and the SHO you own are AWD and the thread title calls out AWD. I would like to hear how those two AWD systems compare instead of all the banter about dealership experiences and such.

The other thing worth asking is how much depreciation occurs after 2-3 years of ownership between these two vehicles? My guess is the Acura will hold better resale than the Ford. It would also be interesting to see what the maintenance costs are between the two vehicles down the road when they go off warranty.

Brock79

Well the maintenance will be a moot point as both cars are covered for 125k miles. At that point I will most likely not own either car. The resale value is pretty much the same. As for the AWD and your right, I haven't addressed that. I have had the pleasure to drive the SHO in the snow, and it handled great. I didn't have my TL during any snow storms. I usually won't even drive my SHO when it's snowing out as I do have a 4wd GMC as well that I typically take out during bad weather. Now I can compare them for dry weather and rain. I did have the TL slide on a turn in the rain and it was unexpected. I was moving along pretty good, but at the same rate I would in the SHO. I have yet to break free in that turn on the SHO. Even though the SHO is heavier and a little larger, it doesn't feel that way at all. In dry conditions they both perform very well, there is a set of turns that I can take at 90 in both cars with no issues. I couldn't do this in my Mustang or Lincoln LS, both RWD. They started to let lose around 75-80 in the same turns. Honestly I don't trust the SHO or TL at a higher rate of speed than 90 in those turns. But if you do so,e research on your own, most magazine and enthusiast compare both the SHO an SH-AWD systems to being nearly identical. They are both torque vectoring systems. Maybe the difference is the actual tires on the car. The SHO is a little wider than what my TL has, and the tires have less wear on them. The TL Han new front tires(dealer installed for CPO) and the rears have over 31k miles. The SHO has 19k miles on the tires. If you want a true feeling, imagine the TL handling you have with the added bonus of 60 more HP and 75 more TQ, added with a wider powerband.

LaCostaRacer

Thanks for sharing your impressions of the AWD. Tires make a huge difference in both handling and traction so it will be hard to know which car is the better handler unless both cars have the same tires. The Acura has the Michelin Pilot MXM tires that I absolutely hated for performance- the Pilot AS is a much better tire for both traction and handling.

Based on my experience with handling and tires with 30K miles on them, I know the tires are not as good as new. While my old Pilot A/S Plus tires were great when new, they were crap after 25k miles.

Based on a quick look of the two cars, it looks like handling will be very similar if skidpad is any indicator .86G for SHO .vs. .87 for TL-SHAWD. I did not see any braking information in my limited check but the TL has a 120' 60-0 spec.

Camaro194

Good article on this topic:

http://www.carthrottle.com/the-carth...luxury-sedans/

Acura

Ford:

Brock79

Camaro, I'm pretty sure the article you have quoted is the older AWD system from the 2010-12 SHO. It was revamped in 2013, from my own personal experience there is almost no wheel spin and the car gets up and goes. The article you posted for the SHO is also a complete 180 from Motor trend and Road and Tracks articles. But all reviews are opinion based by the driver, who knows that guy could be a TL fanatic lol. We all know that Motor Trend is bias towards BMW for some reason.

Camaro194

What changes did they make for 2013?

Camaro194

Looks like they did add torque vectoring aka "curve control". They brake the inside wheel instead of powering the outside wheel like other systems. It almost seems like a VDC/stability system.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/what-to...ited-about-it/

amill

They didn't do a good job in either version. Here's a motor trend review.

http://m.motortrend.com/roadtests/se...o_first_drive/

"At the very first opportunity, we floored the accelerator out of a few turns in an attempt to assess this torque-vectoring concept, but it proved to be utterly undetectable unless the inside tire has broken loose. "Didn't we used to call that traction control?" I ask integration engineer Mike Interian, who explains that the brake and engine-torque control strategies are quite different between simple TCL and torque vectoring. (Not as different as Acura's, I muse.) None of the helpful information screens illustrates this torque allocation, making it far less fun than Acura's SH-AWD."

TeamAcura

It's basically a modified version of traction control and not torque vectoring. Acura's SH-AWD will make the car turn quicker, Ford's "Torque Vectoring" is more of a safety feature rather than performance. Kinda like traction control!

ABDomega

I agree, that's a cool feature.

Buffa

I'm a bit late to the party here, but just to add some comments on the SHO. I test drove one when purchasing my TL. Nice car, but my main complaint was I felt like a toddler sitting in it. I'm an average guy 5'8" 175 pounds, but this car swallows you up, IMO. High dash, high center console. The TL is a heavy car, but the SHO made the TL feel like a Lotus. It had some good power but the handling was not the same as the TL. Again this is feel, not technical, but feel is more important to me over time.

Another small thing that turned me off, was the test car I drove had about 10k miles on it, so it had been owned for a short period of time. The chrome trim around the tail lights was already peeling off. Small thing to some but super annoying if I owned it.

sockpuppet

Not entirely on point given that this is a Ford vs. SH-AWD discussion, but I just watched

THIS

youtube video, and found it somewhat interesting. Not sure what variables might have been manipulated (for all I know, the Lexus and Audi were on summer slicks). Anyways, enjoy.

d1sturb3d119

iTrader: (1)

For straight power the Ford kicks ass. For handling and maneuverability, can't beat the TL. Torque vectoring does a great deal in the TL. The front diff is open and uses the brakes to vector torque but the rear diff send power to where its supposed to go. For driving finesse I'd prefer the TL anyday.

But for power or setup the Ford is great! I'd pickup a fast car for the price though. One that's dedicated and keep the TL for being a fun 4 door.

Torque vectoring using braking isn't great for corner speed.

mylove4cars

Brock,

Performance isn't just what's under the hood - it's how what's under the hood works with everything else.

Brock79

Yea, I know that so what's your point?

Brock79

I saw this video and it was picked apart by many different critics. I agree with some points that were made, not sure about others though. But the tires were mentioned, some familiar with the Audi say it's not an AWD version. I don't know if it is or not. Critics pointed that the non acura cars were tested in cooler temps, they pointed out the sunlight situation. There were some other things that were talked about as well, the biggest complaint is that Acura did the testing and not a 3rd party.

sockpuppet

Yeah...again, I don't know anything about how these tests were set up. But unless I'm missing something, the Audi was clearly AWD...otherwise how were both front and back spinning on ice?

LaCostaRacer

That video was great- shame on Audi for claiming no AWD when it's clear the rear wheels are spinning!

I opened up the 2014 Consumer Reports Annual Auto magazine today and noticed some interesting commentary for the Taurus (CU loved the Taurus when it came out in the 80's so it's not an anti-Ford thing going on. They like the Mustang):

page 52: MODEL TO AVOID (Ford Taurus) "With so many good cars to choose from, the Taurus doesn't measure up to the competition in a number of ways... The Taurus is quiet, rides comfortably, and has lots of features. But the interior is ridiculously cramped for such a large car, and the styling significantly compromises driver visibility. Fuel economy from the 3.5 liter V6 is a mediocre 21 MPG overall. Moreover, the controls for its MyFord Touch infotainment system are complicated and distracting to use while driving. On top of that, reliability has been subpar.

Overall road test score for Taurus Limited: 64 (highest was Chevy Impala LTZ at 95, Chrysler 300 Base was 83, Acura TL Base was 82, Audi A6 Premium Plus Quattro was 93)

Hardly a glowing review for the Taurus. I see you can buy a 2014 Taurus loaded SHO on Ebay for 37k (Buy it now price)- that's a 10k discount for a car with just 3000 miles on it! Yikes depreciation is a killer.

HeartTLs

iTrader: (5)

^^

Why you are you bringing up real world facts and figures? Brock said Taurus doesn't depreciate, SO TAURUS DOESN'T DEPRECIATE!

C8N

I would agree.. however I would imagine BRAKE vectoring may be favorable in the snow.

d1sturb3d119

iTrader: (1)

Not really considering you can use engine braking for the same. VSA does the same job of keeping your car straight and ABS makes sure your wheels don't lock up. Any way you look at it torque vectoring using the brakes is inferior. The 3G TL's do that. They just actuate for the wheel that spins and forces torque to the other wheel. Just like the WRX and Audi and 4G TL's for the front diff.

The rear diff of the SHAWD TL's can send 100% of the torque it receives to one wheel and that's why the system works well. The rear diff is complicated but the front diff uses VSA to vector torque.

So what most companies cough cough... bmw... cough... do during marketing demo's is turn off the VSA which makes the Subi, TL, Audi with brake actuated torque vectoring fail and make the BMW look good.

The BMW uses an acceleration device to speed up the slower moving wheel instead of splitting torque like the TL does. The RL had a similar system being used back in the early 2000's.

Anyone claiming the SHAWD system is FWD biased, they're dead wrong. The rear differential is over driven at a constant 1.7% faster than the front wheels.



Couple conclusions.
Infinity: front axle torque vector rear does not.
TL: Front diff is open, Rear axle vectors torque
BMW: Front and rear diff vector torque using accelerating device rather than splitting torque
Audi: Front and rear diff vector torque using brakes as do many of their cars.
Merc: Same as the audi

Down side of an overdriven torque vectoring system is that it cannot vector torque under deceleration relying on braking again to stabilize the car. Personally I prefer SHAWD for that very reason. The stability of SHAWD is unparalleled in its price range but Honda does a shit job of advertising it.

docboy

Agreed..

IMHO Acura should incorporate SH-AWD in all of its models (like Audi's Quattro) and advertise it at will. Also IMHO the 2G RDX should have been equipped with SH-AWD; instead it has a cheaper CRV based AWD system, which doesn't allow the continuity of SH-AWD association with Acura.

d1sturb3d119

iTrader: (1)

Downside is the space it takes up in the trunk. My 3G is awesome that way. Aside from that I love the 4G TL. Most unique car on the road and awesome tech. They need to get their advertising team together and give them better direction. When people talk AWD they want to see tech. Acura has tech but its so frustrating to find out how good it is. Awesome for tech geeks not so much for a bulk of the market.

internalaudit

SH-AWD in Canada's Winter Wonderland is one of the main reasons I go with a TLX over a 9th gen Accord.

Heck, if the ILX had SH-AWD, I'd opt for that because I'm a cheap bastard!

Is there really a minimum amount of HP and Torque for it to make sense to equip an Acura with SH-AWD? The TSX's never did and I'd rather drive a sedan than a CUV/SUV.

Brock79

I can't believe the new TLX is only being released with 2 engine options. I understand what they want to do with the car, but they still need the larger engine and SH-AWD in the line up. I wouldn't buy either the TLX at all with those engine choices.

Brock79

You're comparing a limited with out the larger engine, also the SHO comes equipped with a few goodies not available in any other taurus model. Also the taurus normally gets compared to other cars, like the 5 series BMW, i. Have never seen it compared to a TL of any year or the impala.

ABDomega

Does the SHO have an issue with torque steer despite the AWD?

Brock79

Not that I have noticed in any way.

LaCostaRacer

The Taurus SHO is still a Taurus with all the issues that CU listed. CU didn't evaluate the SHO, but comments like small interior, site lines, MySync, gas mileage would still apply to the SHO. The SHO is not the only model with AWD as it's an option with other Taurus models.

Your comment of never seeing comparisons of SHO .vs. TL is interesting- didn't you start this thread? Both TL AWD and SHO are very much in same price range, domestically built and most people would find pretty comparable. Last I heard the 5 series is made in Germany and is more comparable with the RLX than the TL or SHO as a premium foreign built sports sedan. The SHO is also very comparable to the Chevy SS in price but not in performance.

Brock79

Yea, I did start the thread, that's pretty obvious. My comparison is the only one I know of, I have never seen the two compared at all. The RLX is never compared to the 5 series and where any of these cars are made is not a factor in any way. The SS is proven to be slower than the SHO and chevy made a big mistake with that car even with more hp and a larger V8, it finishes behind the show time after time. I have seen those two compared to each other as well as the Charger RT and SRT. The SRT wins in the 1/4 mile, but loses constantly in any type of road course racing. The early tests that involved the SS were disregarded due to the fact that chevy sent their Goverment issued car. Also known as their police version, it's not quite the same as the one available to the public. The SHO is a little tight for its size, the trunk is huge though, so I don't no where that is coming from. Even on this thread some shorter drivers said the car felt like it swallowed them as it was large. The sight lines are not an issue at all, I feel the TL has a worse sight line as far as the blind spot area is concerned. Other than that they are about the same.

ABDomega

So with that all said, aside from the TL's leather, if you were to do it over, would you have two SHOs in your drive?

LaCostaRacer

I found a good link for comparing the two cars in various objective metrics. From a point standpoint the SHO beats the SH-AWD TL by 4 points: 86 to 82. Here's the link:http://cars.findthebest.com/compare/...cura-TL-SH-AWD

The best choice lies with the priorities of the driver so there is no single answer to which car is best. I personally would pick the TL and certainly TLX over an SHO for many reasons but the big reason is the SHO is simply too long for my garage situation at 203 inches- it's also extremely wide at almost 85 inches. The car is a monster compared to a TL.

Anybody that wants sheer power would pick the SHO, anybody that wants sophistication and reduced cost of ownership would lean to the TL.

Brock79

No, I wouldn't have two of anything. I love my Vette but only want one and only have had one at a time. This goes for the sho as well, there's no need for two of them or TL's.

Brock79

As of now, I wouldn't take the tlx because of the engine choices, I would take it if offered in a SH awd model with a large engine

weather

Large engine as what? a V8? Acura has only had a V6 and the TLX will have that engine option with the SH-AWD. Did you expect anything else?

Brock79

You really didn't just post that comment did you? I will enlighten you on the engine options on the TLX. As of now for 2015 there will be a 4 cylinder available and a 280hp V6 available. The FWD TL has a 280 hp engine as of now. The current SH AWD has a 305 hp V6. The larger is a 3.7 and the smaller V6 is a 3.5. So when I say larger I don't mean a V8, those words never came from me. I mean the larger V6 and I'm hoping for at least 320hp.

VQPower37

280 v 300 hp is not really all that different IMO, the people looking at the TL segment probably wont care all that much either

fsttyms1

CR is a joke. The biggest complaint is the Sync system. Its a little tricky to figure out at first all of the features but once you do it works very well. I dont know who thinks the interior is small, but Im 6'5 and i fit in my friends SHO far better than ANY Acura sedan Past and Present, and using CR for MPG, thats like using people here. EVERYONE is going to get something different.

fsttyms1

My friend is putting out over 450 at the wheels in his and he doesnt have to hold on to the wheel at all when launching. It just goes straight as an arrow.

fsttyms1

I think it is. Especially considering its pretty much a down grade from the previous model. I truly hope they have a higher model coming out with more HP in the future, to come out with a new model with less hp than the one it replaces is dumb.