winstrolvtec

That's not what I am saying, and to confirm, you cannot just breathe and get into a new 5 series. I can't really disagree with what you are saying here, these are very valid counter points but I just think a more specific relation or comparison can be established when it's broken down a bit more as opposed to a more general or overall sense.

I feel it goes beyond an ability to simply afford something else or that you can compare just for the sake of comparison as if there is not much else there, like the TL is just any randomly drawn car relative to the 5 series and cars in that class. Are you saying you believe those are the only reasons people might cross shop and compare the two?

I'm sure many think we are making the comparison or argument in favor of the TL relative to a 5 series and those in that class simply because we own the vehicle but I am telling you I only own the vehicle because of the same reasons the comparison to those cars have been made, as well as noted among those within the automotive industry, in the first place. Let's forget about what I or Saturno may have said or discussed here. Now, to be clear, do you think the basis for the comparisons by Acura and those in the industry are unwarranted?

I have felt that the comparison was not unreasonable even back when I had my 3G's but I knew it would take some professional recognition before people bought into that so the comparisons are warranted IMO, especially for what I need the car to do and how that relates to a 5 series as opposed to a 3 and the other sedans that apply. Certainly, I now think the discussion has a lot more substance with the advancements of the 4G. It's a lot like shopping an Accord and TL, which you may have even done. They are not necessarily direct competitors but cross shopping and comparing makes sense in a lot of ways. We are not really suggesting it's anything more or less than that.

To me this will always be an issue and continue to be beaten to death without much resolve but I think that is the very part of it that actually helps confirm Acura's position of the TL because there is so much controversy over where it belongs and what it is supposed to compete with, that if it really did so easily go only one way or another, than it would defeat the purpose and there wouldn't be any of these discussions.

winstrolvtec

Not necessarily meaning anything doesn't translate to it meaning nothing, there is a difference. I think it does mean something because if you want more product you can option it within the same model. With a TL, if you want less than the two primary trims offer you need to get the TSX or even Accord. If you want more, you need to move up to the RL. The 5 pretty much has that type of spread covered within it's model lineup, maybe more.

The number of TL units sold in a year doesn't prove whether the cross shopping sample is trivial. What if those that shopped the higher end TL's decided on a 5 series or other mid level sedan? We talked about people buying these cars for very different reasons, what they end up buying doesn't mean there was no cross shopping.

I'm still wondering why all of these discussions have to go to the extreme ends? It's like there either has to be no cross shopping/comparing at all, or it has to be commonplace. The TL either has to be a 3 market competitor or a 5, it can't be both on some levels.

andvari

I looked seriously at both the 3 and 5 series before purchasing a TL. I could certainly have afforded upgraded models in either family - but it seemed to me that the real BMW essence is best captured in the 3 series, and in particular the 335i. If you are looking for a sports sedan with the best driving dynamics, well that model is a major, major contender.

However I became disenchanted with that story after a while. I mean what's up with the run flats? And then there is the whole yuppie thing. Not to mention around here the streets are lousy with cougars and teenagers cruising around in these things. And ultimately I wanted more interior space for road trips. So if I'm going to make that compromise why bother with BMW?

If I could have dealt with the interior size I still might have gone with a 335i. But in more of a mid sized vehicle the BMW story isn't that compelling to me.

DeanMachine

Drive both and compare the two.

BEAR-AvHistory

I have no issue with you comparing a TL to anything or saying your TL has a bigger back seat then my 335. You might have a bigger back seat but I have a better trunk. That's just part of the fun with cars. Hey I even have a bigger back seat then a Ferrari 458 Italia so do you.

Where I part ways is in the definition of cross shopping. Going around getting test rides in something that is unaffordable at any reasonable level is to me not cross shopping its just comparing so you can say look how good I did with what I can really afford. That’s a big difference to me.

Cross shopping to me means the intent & capability to actually buy what I am cross shopping. As I said in my case I cross shopped the Corvette GS/335IS prepared & capable of buying either one (the CGS was actuactly $500 less). I would not however consider a test drive in a 458 Italia even though it’s a two seater like the Vette as part of the cross shopping experience as I would have no intention of getting one.

I think, could be wrong - would not be the first time, that more then one of the cross shopping TL/5 series "I went with the TL" stories here are much like my 335IS/458 story. I still, in my own mind, keep coming back to so few TL being sold & a very small percentage of those being the top models which is still less expensive then a 5 series. Its an uphill push all the way to make the case that its very common that these cars are cross shopped. On the other hand TL/328 pretty easy case to make.

If these people chose a TL over the 5 series why not get the best TL like you & saturno_V did instead of a base unit. Granted there will be reasons to get a base by people who can afford a SH AWD but again based on the overall universe of TL’s sold it can’t be that many people.

BTW I said there was TL/5 overlap just not very much. Then I got burried in all the stripper or lightly optioned 5's there were around. I think it was one of the others here who also said anybody who can by a TL can buy a 5 series, thats what I reacted too because I don't see it as a fact anymore then if you can buy a 3 series you can buy a 5 series.

The mix here is not typical TL/TL SH AWD. Its at least in the prime posters universe very heavily weighted to the SH AWD side of the house who will have I believe a much different view then some one stretching up from a Accord to get something a with a bit more prestige.

g37guy01

I agree with what you say, but there is something about the 550 when you pounce on the gas. Of course you pay for that privilege.

Your story is the interior space, I don't have those constraints. As for the yuppie comment I guess every single one of these autos in their class falls into the upscale category, but I'm at the point in my life where I live for me.

winstrolvtec

Ok, I think I see what you mean and we agree in a lot of ways. It's just that you are anticipating that many TL owners will now suggest they crossed a 5 series (etc) even if they own a base, which is not fair to BMW in a way. I can see that and I agree, there probably will be these claims even when it did not actually apply and is not that believable.

I know I just got caught up having to drill the specifics of the comparison where it would be mildly appropriate and justified and doesn't necessarily take away from the 5 but still gives credit to the TL were it is due, because some just do not like the TL (perhaps due to the styling controversy) and discredit that type of comparison regardless of any data, info or rationale presented.

I do think it is important to be politically correct when discussing things or this nature. I don't think the specific comparison is very common but I do think it takes place a little more than the general opinion of it but it is my opinion and it would be hard to get any idea of what it may actually be outside of the forums and focus groups. Plus, a lot of the basis of the discussion also comes from the general comparison aspect, not necessarily cross shopping or price points but what the TL actually better aligns with and depending on what criteria, that being either the 3 or the 5.

I don't feel the sales numbers of the particular trims in comparison really indicates any type of concrete numbers because if there is serious consideration of any of the three and of other vehicles and trims that apply, someone is going to get the sale and it doesn't tell us anything about the consideration of other cars, only who got the sale. Although based on the proportions, I don't see 34,000 TL buyers cross shopping a 5 series if 1 in 4 is an SH and above and not every SH owner shopped a 5 but I can't really say anything proportional about what percentage of 5 owners shopped a TL. So I get that as well as the part about the SH+ models being the minority TL, while the 528's and 535's are the majority 5.

Having said that, whatever limited number there is of the serious cross shopping that applies, I think the 5 or other mid level would get the sale over the comparable TL the majority of the time and a lot of that has to do with the perception of the brand and particular vehicles. Then the problem becomes if they would be so willing to discuss the part about cross shopping the TL or other alternative because we know the perceptions that surround the vehicles whether we agree with them or not.

saturno_v

....and the whole point of my post is that I do not think the vast majority of people stretch their car dollar budget to the max, especially in the premium segments.....simple as that...I do not believe cars compete only on price....

Now, let the entire TL 5 Series debate aside....I'm a professional, my wife is a professional in the finance industry (she earn significantly more than I do) and all our friends are professionals/middle manager, entrepreneurs, etc...as far as I can tell very few overstretch themselves (or just maximize their car budget dollars).
They switch brands, Acura, BMW, Audi, Infiniti, Cadillac, you name it, there is not sense of "oh I buy an Acura or an Infiniti because I cannot afford a BMW or a Mercedes".
Again, what I'm debating here is the concept that the vast majority of people buy at the very edge of their affordability as marketing experts want the masses to believe....it does not always work that way in the real world and is not even the vast majority of cases...maybe I hang around different folks than you do, who knows....

Do you care to provide the info on TL models breakdown in sales?? What about the 5 Series??


I quote my reply: "What do you mean?? Almost any person that can fog a mirror can manage to put their butt on a BMW or a Mercedes nowadays if they want to...."

I was clearly referring at BMW as a brand not to the 5 Series in particular.

I joined the fray reading jmkenn0 comment about brand superiority.


Precisely.....I do not think many people bother to go and test cars they cannot/do not want to buy....it seems a useless waste of time for me....

Now, talking about inflated perspective...you put the gap between a TL and a 5 Series the same as between your 335is and a 458....interesting....

Again, it would be interesting to see soem hard figures about the breakdown of sales fo the TL...and the 5 Series as well....


Still you cannot argue with the fact that if you want a powerful V8 sport sedan the TL does nt toffer nothing while the 5 Series does (both RWD and AWD)....the 550 will account for some of the 5 Series sales...
Sure but keep in mind that some packages probably cannot be bought without selecting some others before....the lack of navi and more comfortable seats (the standard seats of the 5 simply suck) and standard wheels put a 5 Series decisely on the "not very optioned" column.....I find hard to believe that someone would pick ,for example, the head up display or the night vision without navi...but hey, everything can happen in this world.....

You can argue with me but cannot argue with numbers...base TL vs base 528 = 9.5K gap....perfectly doable if you want to.....unless, again, the person is already stretching thin to get the T (maybe an Accord, as you said, would be more appropriate)...

Bingo!!!. We finally may get somewhere.....I agree that the overlap is more with the TL Tech and SH-AWD....

I guess all that Acura has to do is to raise the price of the TL to make more belieavable that someone does actually cross-shop them....

g37guy01

Actually the difference between the base TL and the base 528 is $11.4K. TL us $35.6 and 528 is $47K. Right from the website. That is a significant difference to most people,imo. Maybe not if you lease, but certainly if you finance. So I agree if you we're looking at a TLSHD tech, for $2K more you could "cross-shop" the 528. But who is going to buy a low-end 528 after looking at a loaded TL? I think no one. But at least make this comparison equal, start with the MSRP of the AWD 528 and go from there.

saturno_v

You are right, for 2012 BMW jacked up the price of the 528i.
Both Yahoo and MSN report the 2011 MSRP price.
Yahoo post both, 2011 and 2012 prices and there is indeed a jump of $1600.
Yahoo Auto reports a jump of $300 between the base 2011 TL and the base 2012 TL.

winstrolvtec

No matter what there is going be at least a $10k spread but how I see it, people who are looking at a top of the line TL (maybe even low to mid RL) might suggest to themselves that they are already near 5 series territory and would stretch their budget a bit more at that point and/or play around with the terms and finance or lease, possibly more money down, etc, etc just to get into one.

It's my opinion that most people (but not everyone) are more concerned with the badge than the engine or the content. Every single time I have looked at cars in the past and went over the cost details with friends and even some family, I have always heard "but for that kind of money (monthly payment) you get a/the BMW or MB." Or even I after owning my TL for some time now, I still get, "For the money you spend every month on your car, you can be driving a 5 series", "Why didn't you get that instead?" All of this may be true but people neglect the details and seem to forget that anyone who has $350 a month to spend on a car can get a BMW or MB but I would much rather drive a loaded Accord than one of those, other people wouldn't.

For the most part, this is not people who spend time on any automotive forums but it is a large portion of the general buying public IMO. It's the people who do not know the cars as in depthly as we do or can even begin to discuss them on this level, who rely on the public perception to tell what what they should be driving because they cannot get there on their own, in most cases they would not know where to even start. Like the poll taken on BMW owners where the majority didn't even know what wheels powered the car.

Going back to the comparison, I think there are 5 and mid level shoppers who also get frustrated by the lack of content and engine for the price. It's not always that they cannot afford one, they just do not want to own the car equipped like that or they may have a hard time justifying the well equipped cost, so then the loaded TL or CTS (etc) come into play.

I don't know what the percentages are but I feel that most in this category would stretch up before they went down so IMO you will hear way more from the people who ended up with a TL than the people who ended up with a 5 and that can make the sample size seem a lot smaller than it actually is. Just my thoughts and opinions, though.

g37guy01

Cartier, Sacks Fifth Ave, Rolex, Louis Vitton, Guicci, etc, have built brand reputations. Whether you (the royal you) think the merchandise these manufacturers sell is overpriced is irrelevant. People buy them.

BMW and MB also have built brand reputations, with good name recognition. So when someone says, for that money you could be driving an MB, I think, these companies have done something I couldn't. Have g37guy01 be a widely recognized name.

NObody I know says, for that money you could be driving a G or TL. (I'm sure people say it, it's just that my circle doesn't although Lexus is mentioned frequently). In an absolute sense I would rather drive a 528 AWD then a G or TL, but that's me. Mitigating factors and all.

Bottom line, I don't know how the royal "we" shops for cars, every story is different, and I do think you and I are in agreement, a certain amount of cross shopping goes on between brands that is not really quantifyable. I think we are all in agreement, people do things for their own reasons even things we can't understand, like cross shopping a Bentley with a Sonota and buy the Sonata. I haven't heard of anybody doing it, but I don't know how I would.

saturno_v

We are almost completely in agreement except for two things:

I rather drive what I like and what pick my technical interest..I could not care less about the badge....and many people of good financial means do not care about badges....many do but many don't...maybe at this point there are geographical differences in "badge mentality"....we could say that more people in California wants to "look successful" than in Seattle.....it could be....

The comparison Bentley-Sonata is totally out of place vs. the TL-5 series "debate" which are way closer from a functional, size and technical standpoint....is the BMW badge more prestigious?? You betcha, and you pay dearly for that...

Nobody in their own mind would dare to compare a Sonata to a 5 Series (leave alone Bentley) or a Kia Optima to a 3 Series or a TL to a 7 Series or an S class....sure, to follow your example, someone may cross shop a Sonata with a Panamera, but I'm ready to bet some coin that there are way more people that cross shopped (meaning ready and willing to buy) the TL with the 5 Series.....and probably there are more people that "cross shopped up" the 5 Series when looking at the TL than people that "cross shopped down" the TL when looking primarily at the 5 Series.

Media dared to include in the "also competitor" column the 5 Series for the TL so there is some overlapping somewhere...

As a suggestion for you, as you seem to be very interested in driving dynamics, drive a TL SH-AWD (even if you have no interest in it) and then, back to back, drive a 528 or a 535 xDrive an you'll see the significant difference (in the TL favor) in the way the AWD system drive and feel and how the 5 Series lost some of its sporting dynamics roots IMHO.....then you may still prefer the BMW, but, as you said, that is you....

P.S.

Last night I was with my wife at the Cactus restaurant in Alki (West Seattle, my neighbourhood) and we met this couple that we know, he was driving before a 530 E60 and it just traded few weeks ago with a Cadillac CTS 3.6 which he absolutely love it.....both are in the medical field (he is a pediatrician, she is a biologist).
Now, you think he "traded down"?? He said he did not like the new F10...period.....the 3 German brands are not necessarily the ultimate car aspiration....I was chuckling myself thinking about our forum "debate".....

g37guy01

^^^^ This is a good debate for sure. My doctor friend just picked up a new 535. He was asking me about it before he bought it, since I've driven that model.

I don't think the BMW brand is prestigious, I don't give prestige to a car, what I think is that they have a darn good advertising compaign and have convinced people their brand represents something unique and is embedded in the DNA of every car.

I happen to like BMWs from bumper to bumper. I think for the most part they are good looking cars, efficient to drive and have great driving dynamics. As I said before the 550 is awesome, 0 to 60 in under 4.8, but you pay for it. 535 is no slouch either.

I am quite curious about the drive of the TL, and when the opportunity presents itself I will drive it.

saturno_v

X BEAR-AvHistory

This is the TL inventory of Acura of Bellevue (my dealer)....basically out of 23 cars the vast majority are top or almost top of the range (43-45K), few Tech FWD at ~40K and only one stripper...one out of 23.....only 8 FWD, again, out of 23

http://www.acuraofbellevue.com/new-i...&SBprice=clear

Literally across the street there is the BMW dealer and this is the 5 Series inventory

http://www.bmwbellevue.com/VehicleSe...h=new&make=BMW

17 cars, quite few light optioned 528, some mid optioned 535, some 535 and 550 top optioned and I think one 528.

Cheapest 5 Series available at 53K (a 528)

At first impression there are way more "topped off" TL available at the Acura dealer than 5 Series at the BMW dealer.....it may be that some people are willing to sacrifice options to get the brand...open to comment.....

Another interesting detail is that only half of 5 Series inventory at that dealer is AWD, much more than that at the Acura dealer.


Both are among the largest and well known dealers, in their respective brand, in Washington State.

g37guy01

^^^ Just for yuchs I looked up the inventory for BMW of Manhattan. 20 or so models from $55K to $70. This would be what I would expect from a high-end Manhattan dealer.

saturno_v

I tend to like BMW too and I owned them in Europe (we had fewer alternatives there)
The 550 is great but for the same money I can get the unreal Cadillac CTS-V.....that is the problem...I'm a value oriented person (value includes road feeling and fit and finish for me not just a checklist of options).
The CTS-V is really a fantastic sharp looking sport sedan...of course, If I do not like the car I do not like the car, no matter how of a good deal is.....you could offer me an Audi A6 at half the current price I would still not get it....

saturno_v

Bellevue is probably the wealthiest city in Washington state and among the wealthiest zip codes, on average, in the entire country.

winstrolvtec

Ya, the ultimate car aspiration is formed from a select criteria basis only IMO, that's also where I believe those perceptions come from. It's easy to say the ultimate is this car or that brand, etc when you get to simply drive and review but when you have to own and actually pay for it, the perspective changes. Those two qualities are very often unaccounted for, it seems.

It's very much like how I really do enjoy other products, the 3 series and G are excellent sport driving vehicles, among the best in that range, very engaging and lots of fun with good excelleration, sporty brake and steering feel but those are probably cars I prefer to "drive" not cars I want to necessarily "own" because there are times I would grow tired of the very sporty demeanor and the space and seats in those vehicles would bother me for longer commutes and when transporting passengers.

I don't feel I lost much of any capabilities with the TL 6MT but it is less sporty and is a bigger car but a more balanced vehicle in terms of what I was looking for with a great price and perceived value on top of other great Honda/Acura qualities. That's the type of vehicle I aspire to own, whatever it may be or whoever makes it.

I think many focus on what is aspired to own mostly because of what it says about them personally, as well as what others say about the car or brand, over what the car actually does for them and their lifestyles but that doesn't mean everyone who bought a particular car or brand got it for the same reasons or simply because of a badge. All of these products are too good to try to take that much away from them or to stereotype the indivduals who buy them.

TinyRK

So, has anyone left for Infiniti yet?

jpd985

I checked out that CTS 3.6 w/ AWD and I liked the drive of the TL SH-AWD better. The peddle of the CTS felt a bit mushy and didn't accelerate with the gusto of my TL. I however loved the interior of the CTS except my head was hitting the roof in the backseat (I am 5'11 and found that odd for a sedan of that size).

g37guy01

I think the wealthiest zip codes 90210 or paradise valley Phoenix. Houses there start at 10 million.

Hamma Tyme

The reason why the jump on the 5 was some options on the 2011 were made standard equipment for 2012.

g37guy01

The g forums have posts about acura to Infiniti.

saturno_v

Well, if you go by median house price for large metropolitan areas, Vancouver BC tops everybody else in Northamerica.....but it is not a wealthy city for the middle class by any stretch of imagination Lousy job markets, low pay.....

In the proper city you cannot get literally a shack for less than 800K-1mil....that city lives in a twisted reality (ton of wealthy Asian immigration, they park their families and go back to Asia to take care of their businesses...)

BEAR-AvHistory

Just looked at the two sites you listed for 2012 cars. The avegrage TL price is $42K & the BMW dealers 5 seies average is $65K

Cheapest TL was $36K most expensive $46K most common price $44 second most common price $40K

Cheapest 5 series was $57K the most expencive $74K most common price $57K second most common $62K

BEAR-AvHistory

No - the exact number will be a PITA to find but if you think SH AWD’s are a significant enough portion of TL sales & close in price to the typical 5 series on the lots by all means go look for the number.

A 70/30 split would give you 10,000 potentials some of whom have already stretched to get the SH AWD while a 80/20 split would give you only 6,800.

The breakdown for the 5 series is immaterial because it’s the target & it costs more then the TL so that fact that it sells M5 for $95K does not change the basic dynamic of the debate.

Thanks for the web sites of your Acura BMW dealers & the TL/BMW 5 average price comparison of $42K/$65K


Then you can also accept the corollary that almost any person who can fog a mirror can manage to put their butt in an Acura TL. I am sure some of the guys who think of the TL as being quite upscale over a Civic will find that of interest.

What can I tell you, just trying to illustrate the cross shopping BS with a bit of the absurd.

Sure I can first of all the official Acura web site says a base TL is $35,605 & the official BMW web site says the base 528 is $46,900 that comes out to $11,295 spread in favor of the 528.

Now your $9.5K might be very doable with the elitists you hang out with but I don’t think $11,295 is chump change to most people...try a poll.

I know that your choice of a non official web site, which was pointed out to you by one of the other guys, for your numbers gives your case a $1795 dollar cushion but some might say you are cherry picking again.

saturno_v

No, cheapest 5 Series (528) at that dealer is 53K, here is the link:

http://www.bmwbellevue.com/VehicleDe...-WA/1275050793

I do not get what are you saying.....I was just curious to know what are the most common 5 Series sold.....that Acura dealer inventory seems extremely biased towards the SH-AWD and the expensive models....

Absolutely yes!!! Did I ever said otherwise?? None of these luxury brands are really exclusive in my opinion...far from it....BMW is approaching popular mainstream car manufacturer sales volumes...

I do not hang around elitists...far from it!!! Quite the opposite!!!

As I said, again and again, I think that if you can really comfortably afford a TL you may stretch it into a 5 Series.....so far, the TL owners on this site have demonstrated that for some (more than some) it is the case.....and some media publication, as I pointed more than once, think that might be the case....as much as you want to think otherwise, the TL and the 5 Series are not that far apart......that is my opinion and you are not going to change it....

P.S.

I clearly stated that the 528 base price difference was my mistake (MSN auto really) and Hamma graciously pointed that the difference from the 2011 price is the inclusion of a bit of more standard equipment in the 528 for the MY 2012...hence the $1600 gap

g37guy01

^^^ That $11.2 steps up into a "better" class of car. For giggles, I configured a fully loaded CAMRY every option, topped out at $33K. Then I configured an almost fully loaded ES350...topped out at $46K.

$11.2K is not chump change, and I can't image a buyer thinking they want to spend $30K on a CAMRY walking away with a Lexus ES350. But that's me. I know people think and do strange things.

winstrolvtec

I still do not think we always have to run this scenario through an MSRP only filter. If you are already reaching to get a TL, $10k is a lot, no matter how you slice it, no doubt, but if the TL SH+ might be something that you look at and consider to potentially save some money on a car than the $10k is not as big of a deal with leasing and finance structures, unless you are paying cash that is.

That payment gap is the difference in financing one and leasing the other, or 36 month lease for a TL and a 48 month lease plus $2k down on the 5 (close example), or 60 month finance vs 72 month (and any other combination or scenario to this effect). Of course money down always applies and the general interest and lease rates. I have seen a comparable Infiniti M lease better than a TL SH advance despite carrying an additional $10k sticker and there are many other examples like this out there.

Hard to pin point exactly because some of these things are highly variable, month to month in some cases but once you are in the $40k bracket, I do not think that $10k is so far away when it comes to finance/lease structures that it would stop people from at least pricing the car at a dealer. This likely applies more when going "up" than it does going "down" but it's more about the point that it still applies nontheless.

cp3117

+1 .....After 10 pages, you pretty much summed it up there.

BEAR-AvHistory

Yeah I saw that, Pretty cute trying to compare 2011 leftovers to 2012 TL’s so I posted 2012 vs 2012. That being said the average price of the 2011 leftovers is $60K.

BEAR-AvHistory

Thinking of $11,295 as chump change & not that big of a deal on a car purchase when people are haggling over $100 trying to get a better deal sounds pretty elitist to me.

saturno_v

Hmm do you think people usually go and test cars that cannot really afford?? Seems to be a great waste of time....maybe you enjoy this activity, I bet the vast majority of people don't and try to find better use of their time.....

saturno_v

Nothing "cute" about it....please do not grasp at straws, these are listed MSRP prices with their MSRP options...any incentives (obviously there are) for 2011 are not mentioned in the inventory info page.....we already saw that the MSRP difference between base 528 and base 2012 528 is $1600 due to more standard options on the 2012 models (according to Hamma Tyme).
The 57k 2012 528 you see in inventory are AWD....

What that suppose to mean??? I try to get the best deal that I can on the items I want......different items have different prices...sorry totally faulty logic to me....

Appreciable variability in prices of cars people consider happens all the time....20-30%...usual.....is the real world, people shopping for a Civic and ending up with an Accord because they need more space.....shopping for a sedan and ending up with a SUV....you know the wife likes to ride high, the kids, etc....

I'm sorry that I'm always the one that I have to bring you examples.....just one on top of my head, last year my wife's co-worker wanted a new car, the hubby wanted a Hyundai Genesis 4.6 for her, he love that car, test drove it, ready to sign but the wife still had reservation about Hyundai which she consider still an econobox producer no matter what me and Craig (the husband) said trying to convince her...eventually she got a fully loaded Avalon....more than 30% price difference (on the way down) between the two cars.......again, happens all the time....

It seems to me that only winstrolvtec "gets it".....if you are already stretched thin getting a TL an ES 350 or a fully loaded Maxima or whatever, then you will not consider a 5 Series......if you can, instead, confortably afford any of the above mentioned cars you may consider a 5 Series if you want to......I really do not understand what is so hard to grasp!!!!

saturno_v

g37Guy01


Here another one for you...my wife's good friend, recently divorced, kind of mid life crisis...she is replacing her Acura SUV and she wants "something cute, small and fun to drive".....she is considering (and asking my opinion on it) and want to test drive the Mini, the Fiat 500, the BMW 1 Series or an STI like my wife's.....I suggested also the new small coupe from Toyota and Subaru....I let you calculate the variability in the prices of these cars.....

g37guy01

@saturno, with the exception of the wealthy people I know, people who pay cash and/or finance usually don't have a huge price range. I guess I wasn't clear because most people I know buy their cars with cash or finance their cars. Leasing is a different ball game where a genesis to pick an example, can lease for more than an m5. So I'm using MSRP as a ballpark as what one would have lay out upon purchase.

I still think 11 grand is a stretch in todays economy when paying cash even with financing. If you can afford a 535 then you budget was 55k not 40k, if you follow me. By afford I mean you get the dang car, budget stretched or not.

When I bought my BMW I cross shopped a navigator, well I looked at it anyway. But I knew my budget.

I'm not saying TL or g prospects will never cross shop a 5 series. But 11k can get you into a different class of car and in my experience I don't see most people cross shopping with that range when they are going to purchase. Again assuming MSRP is what you pay for sake of discussion.

BEAR-AvHistory

OK if you say so


Which set of % numbers are real or are they all just made up to fit the template that is trying to be proven?

I wonder what your possible waiter from last night would think is a fair price spread?


Cactus Review
By Leslie Kelly

Seattle Post-Intelligencer
Then, when I paid my tab in cash, the server rounded up the bill and didn’t bring back the coins with my change. Was this an oversight or an assumption? Like asking, “Do you need change?” I’m not trying to make a federal case over 50 cents, but Cactus is too good for this kind of parting gesture.

The average car in the US goes for $30K Lots of MB, BMW, Audi, Cadillac money to drive it up but Fords average which was the highest regular car mfg. listed is 32K so lets use that since its only $3K under a TL. Ford also has an internal spread, my SUV listed for $52K, but it’s the only number I could find with out a lot of work which I am not willing to do for this issue....prefer to keep it fun on my part.

So using $32 K as a base 32+30% + $9600 or $41,600 which taps out the average buyer at a TL advance. A SH AWD fully loaded buyer $45K would tap out at $56,300.

A current base 525 is $46,900 but the cheapest Saturno_V could come up with available to buy was a leftover 2011 528 for $52,000 giving a fully loaded SH AWD buyer a $4,000 cushion.

This confirms that if a SH AWD buyer had 30% leftover in his budget he could get a bottom end 5 series.

I don’t think this would surprise anyone but I also don’t think people with a 30% cushion in their car budget are just falling out of the trees, indeed the lack of sales of a car that starts just over $35K suggests the money is just not out there to make this jump since even with a 30% cushion the only TL buyers who would make the cut are those over $41K to start.

As I said earlier which set of % numbers are real or are they all just made up to fit the template that is trying to be proven? A range of 10%, 20% or 30% really does provide a lot of wiggle room to cook the books

At the bottom 10% end the more likely since it was your first try before you changed the numbers it would be. $32K + 10% = $35K which taps the average buyer out at a base TL. The base TL driver with $35K+10%= $38,500 or at a base SH AWD level but short of the base 528.

BTW those 2011 leftovers you mentioned listed for $54, 54, 53, 62, 62, 57,57, 57 at the dealer you chose who ran this add:

Are You Looking for an Official Price Quote on a New BMW 5 Series?
Today's Top Model: 2012 BMW 5 Series MSRP from $46,700**MSRP as shown: $64,000

saturno_v

Nobody pays MSRP, unless we are talking about some special vehicles.......I always paid my car at less than invoice...that may be not always the case (I'm a die hard negotiator) but usually people buy heavily discounted.......and with today low to non existent rates (if you qualify) many do finance even if they could pay cash.....I did finance for my TL...what the heck 0.9%....


I follow you but they point I'm trying to make is that not everyone buy a car at the top of their budget....yes everybody has an indicative budget.....as much as I would love the M5 (if it had a torque vectoring AWD), I cannot afford it....well I could waiting long time and doing sacrifices which I think are not warranted for a car.....same for the 550i xdrive also....


You keep mentioning 11K, which stand alone are a big chunk of cash...think of it more of a %.......this whould mean someone looking at a 15K car and at the same time considering some at 19K......again, happen more often than you think.....

saturno_v

I do not make up anything......people buy even with more variability than that......11K sound huge but you have to put it in the context of what are already expensive cars (the TL at 36K)
The family, for example, that decide to buy the 20K van instead of the 15k car because they need more space represent a 33% jump right there...
The real problem is that there are many people that should not even buy a TL, a G or whatever, let alone a 5 Series, with their financial situation....

That BMW dealer has 4 of them at 53-54K, and as I said before (and it is clear from the inventory page) these are published MSRP prices NOT discounted or incentivized 2011 give away prices.....so the fact that they are 2011 or 2012 is inconsequential in that inventory page....I would not be surprised at all if you can get these 528 well below the 50K mark...much below.....and at attractive rates I bet...

They definitely do not fall out of trees but they are not as rare as a snowy day in August in the Sahara desert either.....you say that maybe 1 out 10 TL buyer did seriously look at the 5 Series...i'm saying maybe up to 3 or 4....that's all....

I do not make numbers up and I gave you real world examples....I cannot give you the percentage....and I do not need to prove anything to you more than what I already did, you already read it here, many TL owners on this forum considered the 5 Series (and we clearly specified willing to buy, not just look at it.....I do not spend my days test driving Maseratis, Aston Martins and Mercedes AMGs) and went with the TL.....we also have a new comer (AEmedic) just coming from a 528 into the TL (OMG, blasphemy!!).....now feel free to do not believe us, I really do not care....

I'm sorry if I did rain on your BMW parade but there are actually people that sometimes prefer other cars, and sometimes also less expensive than a BMW......a fact of life, deal with it....