Glashub

I found the author to be well balanced in his perspective of what Acura was trying to do and how it may have set the brand back with the refresh. The article is has with a clickable tool bar at the top.

http://magazine.windingroad.com/issue/68/

Stew4HD

LOL! I don't see how it's a set back. Sales are better now than they were before the 12 was released.

Glashub

Read the article. It's not a slam of the car you own. It has to do with creating a unique brand by introducing a edgy design and then giving up. BTW, if you're not producing numbers to support "sales are better than ever" statement then it's your opinion. Even in this forum, where are all of the 2012 owners?

neilman

I would expect sales to be up anyway given the improvements in the economy compared to the initial release of the 4G in 08, so it may be quite difficult to identify how much of any increase is purely from the refreshed styling. It must have also been quite difficult for Acura to tell how much of the drop in sales initially was from the new style versus the recession. Both situations would have contributed to the panic at Acura after the 09 came out...IMHO. I could just imagine the designers pointing the finger at the economy and others pointing the finger at the designers. Just overall bad timing for Acura when the 09 came out.

neilman

Looking forward to reading the article...but can't figure out how to page forward to the second page...

TechnoCat

It's not that hard for them - just look at what happened to the TL Year-on-Year numbers relative to other marques. The 4G was a complete disaster, both in absolute and in relative numbers.

I do agree that it may not have been all styling, but that's because I found mine uncomfortable and lacking in a few categories. If you buy into the cult-like religion of this forum, you will believe that the TL 4G is a BMW 5-series killer in size, features and power, with a nicer interior than Audi, and therefore it must all be either anti-Acura prejudice or styling.

Stew4HD

I know it isn't a slam on my car at all. It cracks me that so many think the car was DRASTICALLY changed. It wasn't. The car still has an edgy design albeit toned down a hair.

TechnoCat

Hit the "next page" button (top left) twice. Once doesn't do it.

I disagree with the writer's premise. Style isn't why I dumped my TL, but he overlooks that "edgy" doesn't work in this segment, at all. The Aztec and Edsel did not move their respective companies forward, and the Bangle-ization of BMW had to be unwound. The writer's premise is that by pushing the design to the point of being unpalatable to so much of the world, Acura is building a brand identity and look. That's true, but that's not helpful; it could take them years to overcome that resulting identity.

A local analogy is that we have a many-award-winning theatre that is going out of business. They produced plays the media loved - meaning painful dramas about the challenges of being ethnic, gay, raped, etc. - rather than plays the public would watch. The media, of course, is aghast. How could the public so foolishly want their $45/ticket to entertain rather than enlighten them? And this writer seems similar - he ignores the market realities in favor of the art of pushing image forward.

ZCL

Make a better looking car, get more buyers.

I walked away from the 2011 TL Tech SH-AWD after test driving it mostly because of the lack of a 6 spd auto and other lux features, but largely because of the horrible styling.

The 2012 released and I decided to check it out. They added the features I wanted, but more importantly they created a better looking TL.

If it were not for the refresh in 2012 that looked the way it does, I wouldn't have bought another TL.

+1 for new design.

JM2010 SH-AWD

Interesting and insightful article - I think he hits the nail on the head. Short summary - don't expect/ask your designers to be bold then give them the hook after a couple of years.

I don't think the 4G TL's styling is necessarily beautiful in the way I thought my 2G Legend coupe was, but I do appreciate that it's edgy, thoughtful and interesting to look at. I like the MMC, especially at the back of the car. But the author's point is a good one. If you want to play in this league, you can't wobble - you can either create "out there" design elements that some will hate, or you can just quietly blend in with the crowd.

Most of us who have actually spent seat time in a 4G know that it is an absolutely excellent driving car. I just hope that Acura keeps taking a few styling chances along the way. Not everybody will like those efforts, but to me, interesting beats boring every day. And this from someone who absolutely rejected the looks of the 4G when it was first unveiled!

Glashub

Socrates doubted the wisdom of the masses. It always seemed to me that everybody just jumped on the "I hate the 4G styling bandwagon". Look it could be argued that the styling is gimmicky or too busy or even that the grill is too much but I when I look around I see flaws in every design. I'm already tired of the Sonata too many flowing lines look. The bottom line is I when I go out to get in my car and take in the gestalt of it, I like it. When I focus on individual elements I like it less. But it's like that with anything...even the most beautiful women in the world.

The 09-11 for better or worse is a vision fullfilled. Like a Van Gogh. The 2012, imo, is like Van Gogh listened to the masses and toned down his work with some gentle Monet brush strokes so that more people would buy his paintings.

dethred

I personally love the styling of the 09-11 models. The new ones just seem bland and lack that large, aggressive appearance of the 12'. Both cars look good, but I am glad I got the 2010.

Glashub

This is what the masses have wrought: blockbuster movies, remakes, comic books made into movies...and BMW 5 series that at a glance look like Hyundai Sonata's. Everything safe and watered down. As I type out my thoughts I realize I was buying more than a 2010 TL I was buying a statement that I'm with Socrates.

Technocat, I found your post well reasoned and understand your point of view and think that you're right in regards to sales....which is the the barometer of success. Unfortunately these same companies judge employees the same way...are they getting an ROI from a person. Then it becomes a matter of can they get a better ROI without them or with someone else.

Stew4HD

Wow.. just wow.. Thou dost protest much

acurator99

How do you know that sales are better? The last time I looked the economy was still in the toilet next to a dumpster and Acura didn't change the ugly rear for the 2012.

Treblig

At the end of the day, it's a numbers game. How long do you hold on to a product, "The" product that is losing sales, interest and money? I certainly applaud the designers for going in another direction, Edgy, but you can't make the masses like it. Sometimes it's a timing thing and maybe this wasn't the right time to be edgy. The 2009 - 2011 wasn't my particular cup-of-tea but I certainly don't speak for the market. I bought the '12 because for me it was the logical transition from the 3G model (previously owned a 2005 TL) which was a design success.

4G Express

Well written, thanks for the thread

Stew4HD

Troll bait.. beware the trolls

eazy

iTrader: (8)

Seems you guys care more about the numbers then Acura. Someone get these guys some ties and suits.

Stew4HD

If Acura didn't care about the numbers, then they wouldn't have revised the 4G, IMO. Acura is in the business to sell cars and the reaction tot he original 4G wasn't all that favorable, not counting the economy but consumer reaction.

Treblig

Not really, I think it's obvious that Acura cares about the numbers, hence the 2012 MMC well ahead of schedule.

Hamma Tyme

Not totally true, the E60 or Bangle design had BMW followers screaming foul since it was drastically different then the out going E39. But as a year passed, many were taking a liking to the E60 and many other car makers jumped on the band wagon taking Qs from the E60. Take a look at many cars builders designs today including the Honda Accord had taken Qs from the E60. Yes, there are some who thought it was over the top, but BMW's production didn't take a hit like Acura with the 4G. The new F10 has sharper lines and a little more conservative, but car builders need to be bold with a new design and hopefully it's not too over the top for the consumer. The F10 is a hit and the sales are very strong. Let's hope Acura hit the ball out of the park with the 5G.

FM745

Can we stop already with the 09-11 vs 2012 debate? Exterior styling preferences are so subjective. If you like one style over the other, buy the one you like. I own a 2011 SH-AWD/Tech and I love it (in WDP or palladium - mine's white), but I am not a big fan of the darker color TLs in that model year. I am actually not a big fan of the WDP in the base. I like the 2012 in the darker colors, but I am neutral on the BWP. Just my opinion, and I realize not everyone agrees . . . and that's perfectly fine.
And why does everyone care about Acura TL sales? Do we get a piece of the sales profits?
New cars looks interesting when they first come out, but after a few years, when you see tons of them on the road, it loses a little bit of what made it special. I felt that way after buying my 04 TL. When I bought it, there was only one other TL (3rd gem) in parking lot at work. 4 years later there were 8 of them. I thought the latest generation Infiniti G35/37 was pretty nice when it first came out, but there are so many of them on the road that they seem bland to me now. I like that I don't see too many of the 4gen TLs on the road.

Cap'n Preshoot

Great article, certainly fair and balanced. The author makes good points, one and all, but the fat lady has sung and the redesign decision was made, for better or worse.

We bought our first TL, a 2008 + Navi, when the 2009 was already there on the showroom floor. We just bought our second TL, a 2012 + Tech, when the 2011 was (and is) still available (for $4500 less).

Our reason for avoiding the 2009 is the same reason we avoided the 2011. Neither my wife nor I liked the front-end styling, period. Please note the period. It wouldn't have mattered if it was $10,000 less.

Of course we're a couple of old farts, both in our '60s - WTF do we know? We've previously owned a Lexus (LS), Lincoln Town Car (Cartier) and a number of Corvettes, both T and ragtops. Like many, we're impulse buyers and quite frankly, we are among the group that felt the "Power Plenum" was hideous.

We voted with our wallet, which apparently is what a lot of others did as well, getting the manufacturer's attention as only a wallet vote can.

.

Thermoguy

Personally I like the design of the 2011 better. I think the aggressive styling gives it the personallity I wanted. The new 2012 front end looks just like a TSX which is not the car I wanted. If you don't like the beak, have it painted to match the car color. My car is Silver so it doesn't stand out. I would like it better if it was not such a plastic piece, but this is the same on all model years.

saturno_v

Totally agree with the article, Ireading it I felt like I wrote it myself!!

BMW had stellar years in sales with Bangle designed products...the E60 was the most successful 5 series ever.

I admire the Germans for sticking to their guns...I remember the screams, blabber the "oh my God" about the E60 series.....guess what, eventually others copied the design......Acura instead chickened out.

....and If you buy into the bash Acura bandwagon you will believe that the TL is a mediocre luxury wannabe vehicle with the technical undepinnings of a cheap daily commuter and subpar finishing.....ohh Acura was so much better 10 years ago....

TechnoCat

Having bought-and-paid for a 2010 TL SH-AWD, I think that's pretty accurate. Acura has lost it's way. Maybe it's finding the way back.

Don't forget - apparently the majority of the luxury car buying public agrees with me.

saturno_v

There was no "way to lose"......Acura never made better cars before.....yes the NSX and the S2000 are sadly not longer with us but that is a different story...


Not so much since Infiniti and Acura still both trump Audi in sales in the US (2010 results) with a much smaller model range...you seem to always have a little problem with checking your facts before posting (The Bangle BMW "failure"??.....what about the 335i whipping a TL on the track?? Well it is the opposite according to few car magazines).....

Having bought a 2010 TL SH-AWD and having cross shopped with a 335i, 535i and and S4, I can tell you that the German rivals were not worth the premium price......well, except the 335i which is a good value buy at the moment....

Happy Easter!!!

JAB00

The author of the article is being to philosophical about the design. Acura doesn't have the prestige of BMW to be "bold."

The 09-11 TL grille was too distracting to me. It did not flow well. The TSX grille was well executed. The 10 MDX has a well executed grille. Audi's designs are bold but attractive to me. The exterior of a car is important to many car buyers. Sure the 09-11 have great interiors and with the SH-AWD are great driving machines. However, the busy front and back end detracts too much.

The key for a car maker like Acura that is not well established in the near luxury or luxury market, it has to be palatable to most of the potential buyers. It's not a niche expensive but low volume car maker like, Ferrari, Porche or Aston Martin that can be more bold with their exterior designs. The 12 is at least a decent looking car. Not quite as nice looking as the TSX but based on the sum of the whole, it would be on the top of my list if I were car shopping.

compewterbleu

Nice article, Acura does need to make a choice and stick by it. Looking at the overall lack of direction if the 5G isn't all that and a bag of chips I will be switching brands.

TechnoCat

I think everyone is making better cars now. The TL didn't sell well. Isn't that the capitalistic definition?
Are we talking the TL, which went way down while the A4/A5 went up? That is the topic in the thread title.

(And, not that it's worth much, but Audi has been all over the press for nine months pointing out that they simply ran out of cars; they couldn't build enough for the U.S. My experience mirrors that well - I had to get mine shipped over 1000 miles. Acura didn't have that problem with the TL.)

I really wanted to like my 2010 Acura TL SH-AWD. Why would I throw $40K+ at a car expecting not to? My limited previous experience with Acuras was really positive. Every once in a while, a car maker builds a great car - like the BMW 3.0csi 30 years ago, the Toyota 2000GT 40 years ago... and sometimes they take a misstep. I suspect the 4G TL will go down as a misstep, at a time when Acuras generally are quite good.

But it will certainly be a classic to Acura lovers on this forum.

saturno_v

Yes the TL did not sell as well (actually it did after all in the 2010 total sales figure but probably helped by generous incentives) as the previous generation (I suspect it did still sell more than the A4 in 2010 though....) due to:

1) Mainly the controversial styling.....that is highly subjective...if you do not like it it's ok...and many people did not like the design (the infamous "beak" in particular)
I'm not debating anybody's taste..to each their own...lot of folks said that the only reason for not getting the TL was the style but were absolutely pleased with the contents.

2) It moved upmarket compared to the previous generation...more competition, and some traditional customers probably got priced out...the A4 did not move higher from the previous generation....actually they dropped the 6 cylinder engine option (which you did own if I recall correctly) except for the S4, which in turn went from V8 to V6 supercharged.

True.....actually Audi had a particularly stellar year in China and probably some production got moved around...the "shortage" could be due to logistic snags, bad planning, etc...as a side note, when we were shopping for my wife replacement car in December, we did look at the Q5..we heard about the shortage...however plenty of them in stock and sales people pestered us with phone calls after my wife test so....take it with a grain of salt.

When the 300C came out Chrysler had shortage of them...for the first time in many many years people actually did wait to get a car from that company...that does not make the 300C a better car than the slow selling RL....just to say...

I don't know why you did not like your TL...I haven't read any detailed explanations from you other than general bashing....you must have liked the design for buying one in the first place....you had your reasons for dropping it I guess.....I disliked the S4 but I do not feel the urge to go on the Audi forum bashing it at the first occasion...or to tell you how inferior it is to a TL....any reasonable technical analysis of the two cars would come to the conclusion that overall the 2 vehicles are comparable in quality and contents...there are areas where the TL excels and it is superior and others where the Audi take the lead (at a price)...I reject the statement that the S4 is generally superior because it is not.


But it will certainly be a classic to Acura lovers on this forum.[/quote]

I do not think the current TL will become a classic (generally no sedan attain that status.....it is very rare) but rest assured that even the A4/S4 will not be a classic...nor the 5 series or the Infiniti G and so on....

sddale

I don't think that BMW "stuck" with the E60 5 Series styling since they totally redesigned it rather than evolving it with the F10.

The stellar sales of the E60 probably had to do more with the economy than it's design.

saturno_v

Maybe or maybe not....speculations....the fact is that it was the most successful ever despite the initial gripes and stomach aches....and it did last as long as the E39 (maybe just one year less).
It is the 5 Series that overtook for the first time the MB E Class in global sales...BMW did not change it after 2 years....

Hamma Tyme

You can't be serious on both accounts. The E60 ran from 2004 through 2010 and it was time to update. The F10 still has the lines but have been due for an update with many improvements including sharpening the lines. The E60 was the best selling 5 Series ever and through a very tough economy. I owned an E60 and now have the new F10 and the car is greatly improved.

Let's not compare two car builders coming to the market with radically different designs and one hitting the ball out of the park with many companies taking Qs, and the other was a huge mistake with terrible sales and resale.

Come on man, deal with it! Look forward to the 5G and hope Acura nails it like BMW and other car companies had when coming to the market with an updated model. It can happen...

Stew4HD

I can't help but ask this question:

Do you guys like your 4G TL?

I get the impression that many do not. If not, ditch the car and pursue perfection elsewhere. The TL is not meant to be the LUXURY model in the line-up, that's what the RL is for. SUre, the TL's price is getting up there close to the RL but it still does not match the appointments of the RL.

I REALLY like my TL. It has its flaws but so does every other manufacturer. No car is perfect (in my price range). I was proud to have the 3G as well. IMO, Acura hit a home run with this car... not a pop fly.

The negativity gets so old.

/endrant... let the flaming begin.

TRIUMPHT

iTrader: (1)

+1 i love my TL ......i think the problem is with alot of people they worry about to much of what others have to say ............that's why i love my TL even more because as of now ACURA has done what they set out to do with the 4th Gen........It is one of the most controversial cars on the road today....thats all you hear "the09-11 is ugly the 2012 looks better" "the 2012 looks like it got neutered, the 09-11 looks more aggressive......

I think the car looks great ....i have not heard anything bad about this car honestly until i joined this site............everywhere i go i get nothing but compliments .....except here.....

i felt the same way about the 3rd gen TL i didnt like it at all ..i originally had the 1st gen went to purchase 2nd gen and ended up with the 3rd gen .....the 3rd gen grew on me through time .......and as soon as the 4th gen came out i knew i was gonna get it .....

So with that said ...i love my car ....people could say it was because of the economy...because the design....blah blah blah...my modo you don't like it don't get it ...you like it and can get it get it....period .......to many threads up here with people always looking for an answer on why the 4th gen numbers weren't good...that's why they gave it a make over...now it's selling more........As i said they did what they wanted ........4th Gen TL most controversial car on the road right now....LOVE it or HATE it....

sddale

Have you looked at the history of the 5 series? They clearly deviated from evolving two model years together. The E39 evolved from the E34 just like the E28 from the E12. If the styling was acceptable the F10 would have evolved from the E60 but BMW corrected it by totally redesigning it. Sorry but the E60 was the ugly duckling compared to all the other 5's.

The E60 was the best selling 5 series through a very good economy more than bad. I was just happy to see the F10 was a decent looking.

saturno_v

The E60 was introduced just after the tech recession...I would not call it good economic times...Europe was gripped in a stagnant economy for a decade...still the E60 sold like crazy over there.....


Maybe customers "forgive" BMW for making ugly cars occasionally and buy them regardless....probably the company has enough cachet.....I would be really curious to see for example if a car like the Panamera or, God forbid, the horrendous Cayenne was introduced by a less prestigious brand instead of Porsche......I would have loved to see the comments....because it is a Porsche for many it automatically becomes a gorgeaous car....

sddale

I was just going by US sales data as well as the US sales of its competitors were bloated for 05, 06 and 07 but the outgoing E39 outsold the E60 in its introductory year as well as it's final year. I think that the F60 is on track to outsell the E60s first year as well.


Totally agree.