Mr Marco

What makes the entire thread even funnier is how OP (acura-TL2010) has only posted twice so far!:thumbsdow

compewterbleu

I think some are aware, but you have those who are easily pressured by others...and some who just can't make a car purchase for fear of not being a part of the "in crowd" there for forgoing their desires to avoid not fitting in. I digress though, As Stew said you missed the point on this one. There is communication in the form of knowledge and there is communication in the form of propaganda. I surmised to the later on most of these threads.

compewterbleu

Nicely put, "But for sure I don't wanna to go to a Acura forum and read about BMW. Its a waste of my time."

Glashub

Oh Gosh, BMW may be special in NY and NC but they are so common in LA. If I see another pimply faced 18 year old driving next to me in the coupe I'll od. I mean it. They are truly a dime a dozen here. That's why I won't buy or lease one. Great BMW lease plans means anyone who can frost a mirror and make a pyment can get into one. No offense meant.

BMW's are like porn stars in that the Pamela Anderson look was great at one time but now that every actress has that look...it loses its meaning.

The CEO of BMW in an interview recognizes that they might be oversaturated but figures that the BMW driving experience will overcome the dime a dozen aspect

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43730198...ng-perfection/

Also, there's this article about how BMW took billions of dollars in bailout from the American government and in a show of gratitude closed it's top performing American parts plant...laying off thousands -

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jul...ltzik-20110703

saturno_v

They are definitely master at marketing and promotion, something that the Japanese brands, and in particular way Acura have a long way to go to learn from....maybe is a cultural thing...

Did you ever see an ad from Acura where they highlithed the fact that the Tl was able to beat the 335 and the S4 on the track?? No....

Saturation concerns are valid.....around here you see more 3 series than Corollas.....

Glashub

The Japanese are the people who gave us the first Infiniti commercials. Images of lakes, sand and tranquil settings. Their idea of motivational messaging is a haiku.

The Germans have always been known for their desire to dominate the world.

pickler

actually the Japanese were involved in ww2 as well if that is what you were referring to and conquered more than what Germans did if we exclude the soviet union which was occupied only for months. the Japanese were actually pretty ruthless and killed millions in China and other Asian countries.

SO: i don't really think the japanese are/were softer than Germans. also americans, british, italians weren't/aren't any different either come to think of it. so in conclusion all humans desire power. now what the fuck does this have to do with this thread?

acura_TL2010

Looks like TL is matching up to 535I in the poll. Many people have written that they don't want to see BMW discussed in Acura forums, that does not make sense as to when you compare the cars you always compare with other brands, it is like saying test drive one TL with other.
It is very interesting to see so many Acura drives would prefer to drive a BMW given a choice.

Glashub

pickler - Actually Japan was an isolationist island until the 19th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan

Whereas the Germanic tribes have always been aggressive and land grabbing. As a Pole my family has felt the pain of the Germanic desire to build empires. I notice that you didn't include Canadians in your little diatribe. What have you done to the native peple there?

In regards to WW2

"The Second Sino-Japanese War (July 7, 1937 – September 9, 1945) was a military conflict fought primarily between the Republic of China and the Empire of Japan. From 1937 to 1941, China fought Japan with some economic help from Germany (see Sino-German cooperation)."

"The reason for Japan attacking China is that Japan has little natural resources on the island. It was formed by volcanoes. Japan attacked China to get China's natural resources to fund Japan's economy. == Answer == Japan had imperial ambitions, the same as those held by Russia, England, France, the Dutch, and the USA - when it came to the Far East.
Japan being geographically located there, they felt this was their territory to exploit, similar to the way the USA feels about the Carribean (see Monroe Doctine)."

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_did_Ja...#ixzz1ShiGS44O

Now what the fuck does your post have to do with anything on this thread? Because I never mentioned war or violence.

Costco

For those of you looking for a brand-neutral discussion stage that is still part of AZ, Car Talk and to a lesser extent, Automotive News in the Off Topic section are both great. Once upon a time, I would visit the 2G TL forums once or twice a day.... but I haven't actually clicked on the "TL" tab in a very long time.

The only time I take part in a discussion in one of the model-specific forums is when it has an interesting title and/or it has a lot of responses.... such as this very topic. Usually stumbled upon through the "find new posts" function.

There will be those that disagree with me but there are undoubtedly much more varied opinions in off-topic forums. Many people in car-specific forums are still in their honeymoon phase of ownership.

And for the truly brave, there is always Ramblings.



Just sayin....

saturno_v

I'm not sure about that...as I said before we should have to look at how many actual TL owners in this poll would take the bimmer.

If you can afford the TL, you can afford the BMW..they are not that far apart...I think the vast majority of TL buyers could afford the 535 if they did want to but they did choose the TL...price is not the issue...if you like more the TL you get the TL otherwise you buy the Bimmer....as far as I know, many TL owners cross-shopped the 5 series...

draph

The lack of acknowledgment to my point of view having leased a 335 for 3 years before owning a TL for the past year indicates to me the BMW fanboys "contributing" to the discussion really have no interest in a meaningful discussion.

There are trade-offs to either car (535 vs. TL)...and cost is not the only one with the BMW. I have not heard of any turbocharged vehicle short of a diesel big rig that has reliably gone to 300,000 miles like a Honda drive train (btw, is there anyone on the RDX forum who's gotten that engine to 300K yet?). Chip it to increase the boost, and you are shortening the life that much more. Woe to the person who buys that used turbocharged BMW without a warranty. Hence, a major reason for stronger residuals with Acura.

My 335 burned oil (needing at least 1 quart between each oil change), and mysteriously lost over a gallon of coolant from it's completely sealed system)....not chipped. I ditched the idea of buying after the lease like I originally planned because that indicated to me there was major engine work in that car's future.

I empathize with the folks who fell in love with BMW, however. That turbo torque curve is very addictive. For someone who usually prefers rowing his own gears, it actually made me lazy (plenty of power without needing to down shift much of the time). With a nice MT gear box like the TL's, however, down shifting to get up in the power band is not a chore.

If I had money to burn on trading/leasing every 3, AND the 535i had an M differential, better steering, and more power to overcome its weight disadvantage against the TL, I'd go for the BMW. For this survey, remove the "money to burn" argument, and there are still 3 detractors that led to my vote for the TL.

jjsC5

Comparably equiped, the BMW 535 is about $20,000 more - about 50%. Do you really think that is "not that far apart"? Maybe we should be comparing the TL to a top of the line Civic - the difference is about the same (percentage wise).

draph

Read this for a more honest assessment of the 535 with 6MT and sport package:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...oad_test_intro

saturno_v

You can get less accessories, buying slightly used, waiting a little bit to afford a larger car payment if you think the Bimmer is really worth the difference....you have options....

20K more actually gives you a 535i xDrive sedan slightly better equipped than the TL SH-AWD Tech Advance.

Base TL SH-AWD (non tech) and base 535i xDrive are 12K apart.

I'm not the only one TL owner that cross shopped the 535i...

jjsC5

I've done the homework. The difference in comparably equiped cars (as much close as you can get them) is $20,000. One of the things you have to remember about BMW's is that some equipment that we take for granted in cars in this price range are optional on the BMW. I realize a stripped 535 is not $20,000 more, but to get the equipment I want that can be had on a TL Advance, you are looking at $60k plus list price (RWD BMW)

PsychDoc

Yes. If you're going to get a 5 series you're certainly going to want the PP1 and PP2 packages. These give you the following (which are not standard without them):

PP1
Auto-dimming interior and exterior mirrors
• Ambiance lighting
• Universal garage-door opener

Black Dakota Leather



Cinnamon Brown Dakota Leather



Everest Gray Dakota Leather



Oyster and Black Dakota Leather



Venetian Beige Dakota Leather



Black Nappa Leather
$1,000


Oyster and Black Nappa Leather

PP2
• Power rear sunshade with rear manual side window shades
• Satellite radio with 1 year subscription
• iPod and USB adapter
• Heated front seats
• Premium hi-fi system
• Rear-view camera
• Park Distance Control
• Navigation system

The price of PP1 is $1,800 and PP2, $4,900. Taking the beginning price of the 535xi ($52,400 + $550 for metallic paint which almost everyone gets) this brings the price to $59,650. Add the destination charge of $875 and you're now at $60,525. This is pretty much an apples to apples comparison to the TL- SHAWD with tech. Start throwing in other stuff like sports packages, the M-sport package, convenience package, dynamic handling, driver assistance, cold weather, etc. etc. and you are pretty much at $70k before you can say "BMW." Is anything there a "good value?" No friggin' way! Is the TL a good value? You better believe it. Is it a BMW? ......

Stew4HD

Only a BMW is a BMW but that does not make it anything but a BMW.. its' prestige is perceived by the cost. If I truly felt the need to impress my friends, co-workers by a car that tells them "Look, I made it to the next rung on the ladder", I would have done just that. Honestly, if I was going to spend $60K on a car, I'd have picked up a CTS-V. I'd have the luxury and be able to blow the doors off of the 5-7 series BMW

LOL, @ spending that much to have what the TL has.. TOO FUNNY!

compewterbleu

...no it's an Acura.

omaralt

lol that car doesnt even have heated seats or navi!

compewterbleu

....ah, but it's a BMW!

omaralt

i mean i swear it's f*cking embarassing to pay $57K for a car and not even have heated seats..

Stew4HD

That's the important part!

compewterbleu

LOL, a co-worker of mine said if BMW tricked out a couple of Yugos and put BMW badges on them and told folks it's the new "Zero" from BMW you'd see folks in droves pulling up at Wal-Mart in them, LMAO!!!

saturno_v

The TL SH-AWD advance cost 46K (including destination charge)...that is 14K less than the 535i you described....not 20K as jjsC5 suggested.


I done my homework too and I cross shopped the two...if I though the BMW was worth it i would have bought it as many TL owners would....

JM2010 SH-AWD

I too cross-shopped the 5 series (briefly). I preferred the TL's performance, value, features, etc., but had a general impression that the 5's interior perhaps contained a few more luxury touches. But after looking at that photo of the BMW's dashboard from between the front seats (in the C&D article referenced above), I'm really surprised at the quality and poor fitment of the (many) dash pieces. For example, look at the mis-alignment of the glove box door. BMW should be ashamed to be asking 55-70K for a car that comes to the consumer looking like that. All the more reason I'm very happy I selected the TL over a year ago (and would do so again in a heartbeat). Cheers.

winstrolvtec

I don't think the point is whether or not there is a substantial amount of money between the two when comparably equipped because there is, the point is whether or not it is objectively worth that premium over another mid size luxury sedan (in the TL) instead, and then the second part of that is, even though the prices and the value proposition may be far apart, the monthly payments don't necessarily have to be.

This mostly applies to leasing but it's s not hard to get a comparably equipped 5 series lease payment within $100 or less of a TL's. It wouldn't necessarily be the same terms and arrangements or money down but it doesn't take much. In leasing, you wouldn't really feel that cost difference but paid and full and when financing you would but even then you could put a decent amount of money upfront and/or 72 month finance, which I would do over leasing anytime.

Personally, I financed my TL no money down (just taxes and fees), so the monthly lease cost of a well equipped 535xi is already in my monthly range. I am pretty sure I could get it for around $25-$50 more a month which putting $1k-$2k down would wash that amount or or taking advanatge of their mutiple security deposit program which buys down the rate about that much each month as well.

Honestly, I can go down to the BMW dealer now and trade in my TL and get a well equipped (or better) 535xi for the same payment, maybe less, and it would cost me zero out of pocket, the equity in the TL would cover all that. The thing is, in the long run, I know that the TL will return several thousands of dollars when it's time to sell or trade and there is a good chance the 5 (being lesed instead) would just be returned, so that is pretty much the difference in my decision and it also comes down to other areas already discussed like reliability, 6MT and AWD, torque vectoring, the general value proposition, etc.

The truth is, that for most people, certain luxury cars and brands (mostly German) don't make for a very logical car buying experience or vehicle purchases in general (for all the reasons already discussed throughout this thread), it's an emotional one, and even many owners themselves will tell you this, so people tend to justify the premium and higher cost of manufacturing reflected in the higher prices by artificially adding value to it by way of the badge or the prestige factor, styling etc, etc. Those things are not commodities, you shouldn't really put price tags on them IMO.

That’s where the majority of the justifying actually comes from IMO. I don’t think many Acura or TL buyers need to justify much of anything, particularly against more expensive but still comparable competitors. We bought one of the most controversial automotive designs ever and it’s not something most people have, so if there was any insecurity about it, like most other people, we wouldn't have bought it. It's also statistically one of the most mechanically sound ownership experiences one could ask for, it's considered one of the strongest value plays in most cases, it has exceptional resale value, etc, etc. What is there to justify? Not spending more money because of what people don’t know or what they think or are told to?

The Acura consumer doesn’t usually have to justify why they spent what could be considered an outrageous premium over something comparable and cheaper (it's actually easy to objectively indentify and justify the premium of an Acura over a mainstream product), or why they got a/the smaller car (in a scenario where the larger presented useful advantages or was in need), or a base model with little content and/or smaller less powerful engine, that the resale and reliability tend to be worse, etc, etc, because that is rarely the case when buying an Acura compared to some other luxury brand vehicles.

Hamma Tyme

Once again I'll say it, This was a bullshit thread from the get go! There are those who buy the Roundel for the Roundel and those who buy for the driving experiance. To each his own so leave it alone. Enjoy your purchase.

pickler

you are clearly not a car enthusiast if you hate either car/brand. car enthusiast appreciates all cars. BMW is praised for it's dynamics and Acura for it's value and quality/reliability.

pickler

AutoWeek reviewed the 535xi and claim they had more fun in the 2012 TL! so maybe the TL is also dynamically superior as well?

Published on 7/18/2011

DIGITAL EDITOR ANDREW STOY: I'm not feeling it. The 2011 BMW 535i xDrive is precise, capable, reasonably powerful, well-made and utterly soulless. The car doesn't seem to be enjoying the ride and comes across as vaguely contemptuous of having to ferry you about.

Inside is a broad swath of grey highlighted by grey, cold as the Alpine peaks, while outside, this BMW is classically attractive but nothing else.

As far as the powertrain, it was perfectly capable of moving the big sedan at a brisk pace, but for all the smoothness, it was utterly devoid of anything that would get my blood moving.

The good? Outstanding brakes, possibly the best I've ever felt on a large sedan--not just in terms of stopping ability, but also the feel of the pedal underfoot. Also, the heated seats are exceptional, providing even, comfortable warmth from the thighs to the upper back.

Otherwise, I had more fun in the 2012 Acura TL that I was in the night before, and the Honda Odyssey fits my family better--plus both were $20,000 less than this BMW.




Read more: http://www.autoweek.com/article/2011...#ixzz1SmQSL3TX

jjsC5

Exactly! Now, I personally think that to compare applies to apples, the 535X has to have the sport package to compare with the SH-AWD - because that is essentially the sport package for the TL. NOW, I challenge someone to look up what it costs to put the sport package and ventilated seats on the 535X and see how it is priced compared to my SH-AWD advance that lists for 46K as I recall. We're getting pretty damn close to the $20 k difference I alluded to.

Here is a 535 that does appear pretty loaded but is not even awd. It lists for $69k...

http://www.momentumbmw.net/new/BMW/2...a2c84a252b.htm

BTW, I'm not trying to beat this subject up. I just think this is a fun thread and I'm enjoying the "debate"

saturno_v

Wow, I'm impressed....so Autoweek has not drank yet the Kool-Aid?? Shame on them....

omaralt

let me first say that i love my TL and am very happy with my purchase. i also came from a E60 530i 6 spd manual which was a great car and didnt break my wallet . i really dont understand the hatred here.. at the end of the day BMW is one of the few brands still making cars that are driver oriented that come in a traditional 6 spd manual transmission. they make great cars that handle great (havent driven the new 5 so cant speak to that) and offer great feedback. at the end of the day i'm not loyal to any one brand; i dont own stock in acura, bmw, or any car maker for that matter; whatever fits my needs when i'm ready to buy a car is what i'm going to buy whatever brand it may be. i've seen people who have only purchased one brand for the last 20 yrs; thats foolish in my opinion; dont you have a desire to see what else is out there?

bmw is definitely overpriced; but they have done something right to be able to demand a premium price and have people lining up to buy it; acura should learn from that. bmw is constantly trying to innovate and push the envelope (some efforts succeed whiles others dont) while honda/acura prefer to play it safe and just evolve. my wife needs a minivan and we're looking at the new odyssey; and it's embarassing that in the all new 2011 odyssey they use a 5 spd auto in the lx, ex, and ex-l's. only when you step up to the touring do you get the 6spd.. seriously?

at the end of they day we're all consumers; buy what works best for you and be happy. why the need to justify your decision to anybody else? buying a new bmw or acura is a stupid financial decision. you can get a new car for $15K, or a used acura for thousands less than what you pay for a new one; so no matter what we all could be spending much less for a car; but it's an emotional decision and we're all car enthusiasts. buy whatever floats your boat and makes you happy

Stew4HD

^
People are creatures of habit. Many, many people have only owned one brand of car, use the same brand of bath soap, lawnmower, appliances..etc and many do that all their lives. Brand loyalty exists in a huge way. My grandfather only owned Ford trucks.. period. He would even discuss owning a Chevy, Dodge or import. It's called a "comfort zone".

As for hatred about BMW.. I don't see hatred here, just fun bantering back and forth. It's all in good fun. The BMW guys know we are just giving them $hit cuz we can... plus, what else is there to discuss? We all pretty much agree we love our cars.. we have argued the 09-11 vs the '12 to death (but did last a good while and was fun too).

Oh, sorry to say, you aren't the first to say you love your car! I beat you to it... oooh, wait, no doubt I am way down the line to be first on that!

omaralt

ya it seems like some people are having fun back and forth while others are taking it personally..

about the whole brand loyalty thing; the way i see it; is why am i loyal to one brand? are they loyal to me? trust me all corporations are looking out for their own good (as they should) and we should be the same. to blindly buy a brand over and over no matter what is not something i'm interested in. my next car will probably not be an acura (unless the 5g tl is something extraordinary, not just an evolution from the 4g). i've owned honda, toyota, acura (twice), and bmw cars and i'm only 27. i want to own an audi, Porsche, and jaguar. many flavors in life; be a shame to not try them all

Stew4HD

Just like some people never leave their home town or travel far from home.. change is scary for many people.

I am not sure people stick to brands for brand's sake as much as it is the point of view "if it aint broke, don't fix it". My Mom used Tide laundry detergent for as long as I can remember.. there are cheaper brands that do the same but she said she know's Tide works and not going to to risk aonther brand not working.

I have no idea what my next car will be but if this one does well, I will most likely buy another Acura. .. but that is just me.. if it aint broke, why try to fix it?

omaralt

everybody is different; but i cant imagine living with that kind of attitude. i always try to get out of my comfort zone and try things that make me uncomfortable; i try foods foreign to me, etc. different strokes for different folks

pickler

i don't think bmw is any longer a driver's car with the f10 series. electric steering?!

jjsC5

Good post.

I have a story that sums it up. About 15 years ago a very good friends girlfriend (at the time) was looking for a new car and wanted a BMW. I advised her against it. A few years later - when they were married, he bought her a BMW. She asked me why I told him I thought it was a good choice. My reply was that he could afford to spend more for a car than it was worth. Sounds like a smart-ass reply, but it wasn't.

You really can't say the car isn't worth it, because economics 101 says something is worth what the seller is willing on selling it for and there is a buyer willing on paying for it. Some folks think the BMW is worth it.

BTW, between the two of them, they have now owned five BMW's and have been very happy with them. Today she drives a new M-B E550 coupe and he drives a new E550 sedan (and a Viper).

krusir

BMW NA just buy back my 2009 535xi under CA's lemon law. That twin turbo engine just gave me so much trouble.

I am driving 2012 TL SH-AWD Manual. Could not be happier. The only think I miss is HD Radio, Acura should offer this option instead of Sirus radio.